44 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

focuspark, on 25 March 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

I do believe a "group" or Ravens is known as a "flock" and they usually come in 3-5 all on TeamSpeak.

Technically, a group of ravens is called an "unkindness" or sometimes a "murder" (like crows). Both names seem to be appropriate.

[Mothykins]

Cyke, on 25 March 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

Nothing you say here is untrue, but what stops the RVN-3Ls from likewise working in groups?

You normally never see more then two 3Ls at a time; any more and the world just hates you. Regardless, any non-panicking individual should do the smart thing and shoot the Raven on his team-mate instead of hopelessly circling trying to kill the one running in and out of his back arc; Shoot what you can see, don't struggle to shoot what you can't. Work smarter, not harder. There is a counter to everything.

Even if that counter is, in this case, as many ERPPCs as you can get.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Iseul, on 23 March 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

So with all the problems noted, I'd like to throw in a possible solution.

Make the Raven 3L slower. Both of the other Raven variants can only reach a top speed of 124.7 KPH. Why was this certain variant blessed with an engine 4 tons heavier, yet still become ECM capable. If the top speed was toned down to 140 KPH, It will still retain high speeds. Yet it'll give it's other less armored counterparts a chance to either stay and fight or run.

I believe it'll make enough of an impact that other light mechs will become possible choices.

For those of you who stuck through this long and arduous post, I thank you. I hope to see some constructive feedback, and other possible balance tweaks.

I'd figure having all three Raven variants have an Engine Cap at 250 or 255 could work fine, since all mechs should eventually get a tweak such as the Awesomes and Centurions had.

Going 115 or 118 without Speed Tweak should be enough, it's still a pretty tough Light Mech and actually seeing them with an SRM6 might actually make them more annoying in the hands of an experienced Pilot.

Even keeping the Beagle, this type of loadout seems fine for a 3L, so I would support lowering the Engine Cap on the 3L while also raising the cap for the 2X and 4X.

[Cyke]

A lot of responses here are perfect for a thread titled "how to counter RVN-3Ls in their current state".

However, this particular thread (and the Game Balance forum) are about how Ravens (in their current state) are not properly balanced against other Light 'Mechs.

A subtle but important difference..

Edited by Cyke, 25 March 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[Iseul]

focuspark, on 25 March 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

What the hell are you on about? My defense of Ravens was because SSRM took the nerf back, if in fact you're right and SSRM are coming back to 5 damage per volley, then Ravens seriously need the nerf bat. AND YES, ECM is over powered and I really do not give a **** about what PGI has to say about it. Pretty much proven they cannot balance this game or understand how to make a proper MMO to save their lives. Yes I still play it because it's fun to shoot walking tanks from walking tanks, but the game is not even marginally balanced.

There's a clear line of acention among light mechs with RVN-3L > COM-2D > SPD-5D > Jenner > Raven > Command > Spider, with the ECM carrying mechs way out in front. That's a completely ****** up design.

The RVN-3L and COM-2D are significantly over powered because they can mount SSRM which are a completely ****** design: no skill, never miss, ****-poor designed, monstrosities. Which are only blocked by ECM but ECM carrying mechs can block ECM with ECCM... such a ****** up arms race design to game design.

Actually. What are YOU going on about. Everything you said in this post agrees with my first. Yet in the first post you made, you were complaining it was ALL due to ECM.

Look no purpose arguing between ourselves. You're not even a Light pilot, but you can agree that ECM + Speed + SSRM is awfully over powered at the moment. At the least Jenners and Spiders can out run a 2D Commando, but it's not happening against a 3L. Correct?

So in essence I believe it would be a good way to balance out Ravens to make it on par with the 2D at least.

[Cyke]

To be fair, with the devs adjusting the Raven's hitboxes, the lethality of Streak SRMs rebalanced and (likely) a coming ECM re-balance, RVN-3Ls ought to be all right pretty soon, against heavier 'Mechs. PGI does have an idea of what they're doing.

I'm honestly not very knowledgeable about the Light vs Light balance situation for RVN-3Ls, though, but if more experienced folks than me still have concerns, there must be a reason.
Are these concerns likely to be resolved by a re-balancing of ECM?
If the answer is yes, I think I can safely say we can leave it in PGI's hands, and just give it some time.

Edited by Cyke, 25 March 2013 - 05:38 PM.

[Pyro by sheer luck]

I think many people have this whole "balance" thing way wrong. There should definitly be one mech in every weight catagory that is the best model. The 3L just happens to be debatebly the best light. The 3L in any form is not capable of 1,2, or 3 shotting anybody (barring headshots). That can not be said about many other mechs. Every mech and I do mean every single one, should be deadly. If the dev's nerf every model because someone cries about getting killed by it, then the game might as well just become pillow fight online (see how well that sells). When i piloted an Atlas i loved rounding a corner and seeing a 3L only to think "oh crap" i have to work for this kill or he might kill me. No more worries now. Since the last patch, the game is getting very stale. When i see a 3L now its just 2 shots to the legs and then take your time practicing your headshot aim because 3L's are have been nerfed into the dirt. 3L's are about the easiest kills in the game now. Without the little velociraptors running around, the only thing to worry about now is the twin AC20 jager's. Do they get nerfed into mildness next?

Solution suggestion: Return the 3L to how it was before the patch AND give the best model in every other weight class a buff. (for example, allow the Medium class X-5 to use ECM also) Presto! instant 3L hunter.

The game needs adrenaline and excitement not continuous nerf bat beattings everytime some poor fool keeps getting killed because he puts himself in the same losing situation time after time.

Total balance is for ballerina's, this is MechWARRIOR !

Edited by Pyro by sheer luck, 28 March 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[focuspark]

Ah... Pyro is a RVN-3L pilot who has lost some of his god-mode. No RVN is still OP with ECM + SSRM. Needs more nerf bat not less.

[Hauser]

focuspark, on 28 March 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Ah... Pyro is a RVN-3L pilot who has lost some of his god-mode. No RVN is still OP with ECM + SSRM. Needs more nerf bat not less.

That goes for any light with ECM+SSRMS.

All other mechs are forced to stick with the pack for support and as such they can't effectively operate.

Thats why I'm trying to do most of the time now when I'm piloting a Jenner.

Edited by Hauser, 28 March 2013 - 03:52 PM.

[Swiffllama]

Another Raven 3L is OP post. We really are original here. After the fix to missiles and leg hit boxes there is absolutely nothing wrong with the 3L. I pilot a 3L exclusively. I have 24 hours piloting one. Before the recent fixes, the 3L's had issues. Not so much now. I average 1-2 kills a game and get legged just about every match. Yes, ECM has issues. That is not limited to the Raven. ECM in general needs a re-do. Not going to argue that. For those recommending a speed decrease, it won't matter unless they remove speed cap. I am not running the max engine size anyway. Waste of tonnage. With speed tweak I move at 134 and have no problems keeping up with any other mech. 16kph won't outrun medium lasers. SSRM's are not overpowered. They do a whopping 4 damage, less than a medium laser. And no, they do not always hit. Changes in terrain (Up/Down) and buildings block them just fine. Yes, if you get caught out in the open the always hit. But that is what SSRM's are supposed to do. It comes down more to piloting than anything else. I have run up against Jenners and Cicadas that ate me for lunch. And trying to compare the Raven to another small mech is apples to oranges. A Raven is a heavier mech than a Commando or Spider so of course it has an advantage. More armor, more weapons and similar speed. If they would fix ECM we wouldn't be having this discussion. People would still be crying about how the Jenner is OP. Fast mechs will continue to get picked on (Insert variant here) because the masses want to take really big mechs with lots of shiny weapons, and a weeeee little engine and then get mad that a smaller mech gets on there backside and has their way with them.

[Jaeger626]

Ravens are op right now. I mean seriously I hit a raven in the chest 5 times with four medium lasers and it picks me off with it's lrm and light lasers in a minute. Where's the stagger in this game?

[Kamelkaze]

For me the Raven needs a hitbox-fix and a speed fix as fast as possible.

Lagshield and ECM isnt the problem i think!

[qki]

Nah - it's fine. Why should you be bothered by ECM, unless you have your own streaks to worry about (and one of the builds that use streaks and have no ECM of their own)?

ECM is still good, and so are streaks, but there is nothing magical about ecm+streaks that makes this combination any more than the sum of its parts.

@focuspark - you were in a bad spot on Tourmaline there (and it didn't help you none that I had 2 other mechs with me), but for the record - If you are in that laser build facing down streaks, your first priority should be breaking lock. At close range, and vs a fast target, reacquiring lock is easier said than done.

[qki]

Jaeger626, on 28 March 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

Ravens are op right now. I mean seriously I hit a raven in the chest 5 times with four medium lasers and it picks me off with it's lrm and light lasers in a minute. Where's the stagger in this game?

Did you keep the lasers on target throughout the whole, 1 second burn? Or just hit with the initial pew, and went wide the next instant?

Granted - speed, streaks, lasers, and ecm to protect it is a mean combinatin. But unless you are trying to hit it with streaks, or rely on ECM of your own to disrupt his streaks, a Jenner 7D has more firepower (one extra energy hardpoint), and so does the X5. The only difference is the lack of ECM on those two, but it's not always relevant.

[Falconic]

qki, on 29 March 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

Did you keep the lasers on target throughout the whole, 1 second burn? Or just hit with the initial pew, and went wide the next instant?

Granted - speed, streaks, lasers, and ecm to protect it is a mean combinatin. But unless you are trying to hit it with streaks, or rely on ECM of your own to disrupt his streaks, a Jenner 7D has more firepower (one extra energy hardpoint), and so does the X5. The only difference is the lack of ECM on those two, but it's not always relevant.

O, if there was a hard counter for ECM the X-5 would eat ravens lunch all across the playground.

[qki]

There is a counter - it's called lasers and leg the damn thing. With the state server rewind, I see more and more players goind for the legs, and once they stop moving, they are easy targets.

[Swiffllama]

Jaeger626, on 28 March 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

Ravens are op right now. I mean seriously I hit a raven in the chest 5 times with four medium lasers and it picks me off with it's lrm and light lasers in a minute. Where's the stagger in this game?

First off that is only 25 damage and only if you hold it on the opposing mech for the entire duration.
Not an easy thing to do against a light mech moving 100kph plus. Even so, 5 mediums is not enough to "Core" a Raven on any location.

Kamelkaze, on 29 March 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

For me the Raven needs a hitbox-fix and a speed fix as fast as possible.

Lagshield and ECM isnt the problem i think!

Ok, this screams of "Ravens kill me so it must be a hitbox issue". It's not a hitbox issue.
If you hit a Raven on the "Beak" aka tip of its long nose some damage will spread.
Drop that + on the screen an 1/8th of an inch.
Joila!
As for speed "fix". Unless they remove the speed cap it won't matter one lick.
My Raven does not use the biggest engine size. Complete waste of tonnage.
Ravens that take the "biggest" engine sacrifice a lot to do so. Mainly in armor, heatsinks and ammo.
The most "popular" build that is being run has about 90% armor. For a light mech that is a lot.
THe speed difference between 150kph and 130kph isn't a big one. It certainly doesn't allow for other small mech to run circles around the Raven or for a larger mech to keep up with it.

qki, on 29 March 2013 - 01:35 AM, said:

Nah - it's fine. Why should you be bothered by ECM, unless you have your own streaks to worry about (and one of the builds that use streaks and have no ECM of their own)?

ECM is still good, and so are streaks, but there is nothing magical about ecm+streaks that makes this combination any more than the sum of its parts.

@focuspark - you were in a bad spot on Tourmaline there (and it didn't help you none that I had 2 other mechs with me), but for the record - If you are in that laser build facing down streaks, your first priority should be breaking lock. At close range, and vs a fast target, reacquiring lock is easier said than done.

Bingo. Know what you are facing. Leg the damn bird. I get legged every match now but I am not on here screaming, "Give Ravens more leg armor cause its not fair".
And yes, if you run into a murder of Ravens it's going to be a rough day.

qki, on 29 March 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

Did you keep the lasers on target throughout the whole, 1 second burn? Or just hit with the initial pew, and went wide the next instant?

Granted - speed, streaks, lasers, and ecm to protect it is a mean combinatin. But unless you are trying to hit it with streaks, or rely on ECM of your own to disrupt his streaks, a Jenner 7D has more firepower (one extra energy hardpoint), and so does the X5. The only difference is the lack of ECM on those two, but it's not always relevant.

Give the man a CIGAR! People need to realize this.
Medium lasers only do 5 damage and only if you keep them on the target. Practice doing it. My hit accuracy with medium lasers is higher than my streaks by over 10%. Don't panic, realize that a Raven is going to move for certain positions.
Know that, and line it up. If you are a bigger mech it takes a Raven a lot of time to take you down unless they can get on your back side and stay there.

qki, on 29 March 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

There is a counter - it's called lasers and leg the damn thing. With the state server rewind, I see more and more players goind for the legs, and once they stop moving, they are easy targets.

I get legged pretty much every match now. Yes, they previously had leg hit box issues. Trust me, that is gone!

[EvangelionUnit]

http://youtu.be/2MQPWE_M_EM?t=3m34s

i know i had a video of a 3L doing what he can best ^.~

[Denolven]

Cavale, on 25 March 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Ravens are easily countered simply by sticking in groups (You should be doing this anyways)

Which means the team with more Ravens dominates the whole battlefield because nobody can go anywhere without getting rap*d.

Pyro by sheer luck, on 28 March 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

I think many people have this whole "balance" thing way wrong. There should definitly be one mech in every weight catagory that is the best model.

No there shouldn't. Every mech should be able to be of use. It's rock-paper-scissors, not rock, arrow, rocket. If there was only one "best" mech, the game would die really fast, because it would make 90% of the game content obsolete.

qki, on 29 March 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

There is a counter - it's called lasers and leg the damn thing.

That is not a counter. A counter is something that has a major advantage BEFORE considering player skill.
People keep telling me to just be more skilled. But that's not how the whole balance thing works. Again, it's rock-paper-scissors, has nothing to do with skill.

The problem with the Raven 3L is that it is too good in too many things. Everytime I see one, it's one of the top 3 damage dealers, which alone is rather weird, considering it's supposed to be a "light". That thing is damn hard hitting, for several reasons:

• it can pick the fights because of superior speed, meaning that it can avoid any threat
  
• it packs a punch with good weaponry, not as alpha, but as sustained precise damage
  
• it is very hard to hit (maybe not for you 1337 guys, but for the average player) because of the speed
  
• it has additional protection and agression via ECM, which we know is broken in the current form

Each one is ok, but together it's a nightmare. And no, hitting the legs is NOT a counter, because normal people can't do any relevant damage. If you can, good for you, you are a pro aimer. But expecting everyone to be like that is the same as expecting everyone to be a pro astrophysicist - it doesn't make sense.


So from day 2 when I started the game, I tried to create a scout killer. And I didn't find one yet. I have come to the same conclusion: there is none.
The core of the problem is not that the Raven is a strong mech. The problem is that there is no real applicable counter. Either you are really really skilled to compensate the OPness, or you are f*cked. I can guarantee you if there was a (costly in terms of equipment) utility that throws a bola once in a game, some people would gladly throw out a weapon just to make the occasional ECM light stumble, and the whole thing would balance itself.

It's called cyclic imbalance - the classical rock paper scissors. You can make everything as strong as you want, as long as you give applicable counters.
For education purposes:

Edited by Denolven, 29 March 2013 - 03:49 PM.

[Roaxis Stalomainis]

Iseul, on 23 March 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

No other light mech can reach the speeds a Raven can, with ECM, with BAP, and with enough Firepower to make it viable.

As a Raven Pilot I must disagree with this statement. In MCG the Raven is slower than the Commando and its other light IS counterparts. In addition you say the Raven is the fastest mech in the game, when in reality with the speed cap the Jenner is just as fast and is supposed to be faster without the speed cap. They used to move a lot faster then what they do now, and that was before speed tweak was even introduced! Also, have you gone up against the AC/20 Raven lance? They're not very fun to fight despite the fact that they move very slowly...