67 replies to this topic

[Sam Slade]

Mustrum, the 4xPPCs thing is about headcapping.... so a poor point.

One thing I have noticed; if I can get LRM support on a target I'm brawling I'll usually win. I don't mean Stalker-boat LRM either... a Cat or even a HB will do. To my mind the credit goes to the LRMer for playiny hell with my enemies ability to fight.

Edited by Sam Slade, 24 March 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[hammerreborn]

Oni Ralas, on 24 March 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

It's not at the moment. Damage per ton is a max of 126® for LRM. This is accounting for 100% strike rate at .7dpu. Of course, at no time does this ever equate to real world, as lock loss, ams, ecm, random barriers, etc all will reduce the total value per ton.

Now unlike other weapons, the damage delivery rate is deturmined by the consumption rate per volley (ie: the size of the launcher). The largest single weapon consumer is the LRM20, capable of doing 14 unmodified damage to a target. For this 14dmg, you consume 11 tons of weight, 4.75 of reload time and 6 heat.

An AC20 will deliver 20damage unmitigated, with 16t of weight 4 second reload time and 6 heat. There is no variable consumption rate for an AC20, so its a locked 140dmg/ton of ammo. Due to the reload time and simmilar heat, a single AC20 will out pace an LRM quickly.

LRM: 2.94dps (est)
AC: 5 (est)

Even factoring out a miss, the LRM is outpaced heavily. Now it's not that bad right? ~40% higher dmg from the AC? Well currently the .7dmg number is a bit optimistic. All in all, direct fire weapons will *severely* outpace any lock weapon in the current enviroment when modifiers are taken into account.


tl;dr: LRM's don't need a hulk buff like they were. They need just a tad more to make them competitive again, or some other buff to increase the sheer amount of steel that can be thrown down range (CD or flight times).

You know, when you ramble on about max dps, and completely ignore splash damage in your equations, you kinda come off looking like an *****.

Sam Slade, on 24 March 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Mustrum, the 4xPPCs thing is about headcapping.... so a poor point.

One thing I have noticed; if I can get LRM support on a target I'm brawling I'll win. I don't mean Stalker-boat LRM either... a Cat or even a HB will do.

If you're now arguing that LRMs are underpowered compared to ppcs because ppcs can headshot more easily you've run out of straws to grasp.

Edited by hammerreborn, 24 March 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

mwhighlander, on 24 March 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'll just drop this right here....


http://mwomercs.com/...-and-heres-how/

You have some interesting ideas, however you're not accounting for the latest hotfix changes. Also, why remove 180m minimal range nerf? That kind of change would make a pre-hotfix splatcat look tame. Also that is one of the advantages granted to clan LRM. So, if normal LRM were to get such a buff, what would clans get!?

hammerreborn, on 24 March 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

You know, when you ramble on about max dps, and completely ignore splash damage in your equations, you kinda come off looking like an *****.

Splash was reduced greatly to near non existence. The current damage plus the smaller splash damage equates to 0.98 damage per missile. Also, splash will be completely gone in 2 weeks.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 24 March 2013 - 01:06 PM.

[Vrekgar]

Oni Ralas, on 24 March 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Now if I *could* IF the weapon - have a spider spot me a target and I just launch the LRM's in an arc patern which negated cover (or the vast majority of it) following the FO's path, then LRM's would be a game changer. That would be a barrage and would give real weight to the term support weapon.

An interesting Idea. A change like this would turn them into a support weapon without any damage change. Launch them at a 45+deg arc up, then 45+deg arc down onto a target. This would negate most cover available similar to the Artemis Online period where they did just this kind of arc, only without the crazy damage of back then (2.0 + Splash + Pinpoint Spread = Very broken.)

1.0 dmg
No Splash
High angle flight path

[Tor6]

I'd love to see streak damage stay where it is and have them spread to all sections of the mech.

As it is they only hit the front center torso, even when fired from directly behind. Fighting a streak equipped light while driving one that doesn't have them is the same exact thing as fighting a boss with an enrage timer in an mmo. It's just a damage race against a clock: You either kill him before a set time expires (where timer = your front center torso armor + internals - #streaks(3/3.5)), or you lose. Since there's nothing you can do to avoid them (and can't run since the com and 3L can match speed with every mech in the game), it winds up being no fun at all to fight them.

Manuevering won't help you dodge them, cover is meaningless 95% of the time, and trying to spread damage with torso twisting does nothing because the missiles just deal damage to your CT regardless. That they're basically no threat to non-lights/cicadas makes them a bad weapon system. All weapons when used properly should be effective and feel engaging to use. As it is a pilot can be half asleep and just tape their streak fire button down and still win a light v light duel if the other guy doesn't have or cannot use their streaks (because of ecm).

And before anyone says that nerfing ecm so that it doesnt' affect missiles is the answer: It's not. It should still happen because ecm is doing too much for its tonnage, but that's beside the point. All weapons should require some engagement by the user beyond 'point in general direction of target and hold trigger down. At least you can dodge lrms. There should be some way that pilots on the recieving end of streaks can outmaneuver or otherwise mitigate their damge. You can do that with every other weapon in the game, so why not streaks?

Severely tightening the cone in which streaks can lock and forcing a relock every time they fire would likely fix them and bring them in line with the spirit of TT. I don't care if it nerfs their dps into the ground. This is a weapon that requires 0 effort to use with full effect, and one where there is little to no difference in use/outcome between a great pilot and a bad one. It'd also make people feel less cheated when they're beaten by someone only because of their magic homing missiles. We might even see a bit more diversity among light builds too.

[Willie Sauerland]

I like a lot of the points in this thread and I disagree with others. However, let us assume for a moment missiles are balanced as they are right now. Then what is wrong? Why would people feel they are useless?

Everything this game is based on are individual player stats. How much damage did you do? What is your kill/death ratio? Even the ELO is based on this to match more experienced players together instead of seeing the ROFLstomps so rampant in PUG games.

You will gain more experience through a kill than an assist. What if the stats were to change? Would the perception be the same? Somehow, I doubt it. MW:O is based around a team game. You either win as a team or you fail as a team. Why do our stats not reflect that information? Why is ELO not (yet?) based on it? If effectiveness was not measured in damage done, but maybe supporting a team's effectiveness (or the enemy's ineffectiveness) and XP awarded accordingly, I wonder if the "nuclear nerf" to missiles would have created the dramatic raging on both sides we see now...

Edit: Missed some punctuation.

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 24 March 2013 - 12:24 PM.

[Oni Ralas]

hammerreborn, on 24 March 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

You know, when you ramble on about max dps, and completely ignore splash damage in your equations, you kinda come off looking like an *****.

And you know splash calculation isn't working either right? .7+.3 is the target, however it's *NOT* working (radius on strike calcs are off) hence I didn't even put it in. As it stands, the direct damage calc isn't even hitting .7 per unit either.

Talk about looking like a cun t.

[Oni Ralas]

Vrekgar, on 24 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

An interesting Idea. A change like this would turn them into a support weapon without any damage change. Launch them at a 45+deg arc up, then 45+deg arc down onto a target. This would negate most cover available similar to the Artemis Online period where they did just this kind of arc, only without the crazy damage of back then (2.0 + Splash + Pinpoint Spread = Very broken.)

1.0 dmg
No Splash
High angle flight path

If I could have my weapons on standby and launch the moment I had positive lock *by my forward observer* I have accomplished two things:

1) I have become support in the true sense.
2) We have solidified the concept of role warfare, as I now have to coordinate strikes with someone acting as a designated forward observer (tag). Two of us have specific roles now, and the brawlers would also now split into defensive and offensive groupings.


When I think guided weapons, this is what usually comes into play.

[StalaggtIKE]

Oni Ralas, on 24 March 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

If I could have my weapons on standby and launch the moment I had positive lock *by my forward observer* I have accomplished two things:

1) I have become support in the true sense.
2) We have solidified the concept of role warfare, as I now have to coordinate strikes with someone acting as a designated forward observer (tag). Two of us have specific roles now, and the brawlers would also now split into defensive and offensive groupings.


When I think guided weapons, this is what usually comes into play.

Though I like the idea of this, this is far from guided. This is firing a volley into a grid or set coordinates. Dumb fired artillery does this.

Perhaps give LRM the ability to do either. Artemis + los means the flight pattern would be straighter, similarly to what we have now with a bit of a speed buff. Without Artemis or los means they would rain down as described by Vrekgar.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 24 March 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[Oni Ralas]

StalaggtIKE, on 24 March 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Though I like the idea of this, this is far from guided. This is firing a volley into a grid or set coordinates. Dumb fired artillery does this.

Perhaps give LRM the ability to do either. Artemis + los means the flight pattern would be straighter, similarly to what we have now with a bit of a speed buff. Without Artemis or los means they would rain down as described by Vrekgar.

It's guided if the trajectory of the projectlie changes. A mortar fired into a set of chords is dumbfire. A mortar that is fired at a set of provided cords that changes it's flight pattern (ie: where the mortar originated from isn't relevant as long as it is within range) is a guided one.

If I don't have to have any form of LoS (or, maintain it), then the act of spotting has been moved to the responsibility of my forward observer. This would make running a spider w/ TAG *much* more interesting... ECM to ninja yourself behind the lines, paint a target, watch the rain come down.

[Numnuts]

1.. get rid of Missile Warning unless you have AMS....

2.. increase the speed of missiles by 25-50%

3... increase missile damage to 1.0 .. (now its .7-8 right?)... honestly right now its about good.

4... increase all ammo count ...dam this is a must

5... have it so you have to have a new lock after each firing if all the above is done..

6... Fix/Nerf ECM or make Tag a real counter to ECM, even in the ECM dead zone..

[Ens]

Paul Inouye, on 21 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS MESSAGE:
This is a TEMPORARY fix to quell the damage done by missiles at this time. We are fully investigating the damage model AND focusing on the grouping of missiles and will update as soon as we can on how any changes will be managed/implemented.

dum di dum

[Sam Slade]

hammerreborn, on 24 March 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

If you're now arguing that LRMs are underpowered compared to ppcs because ppcs can headshot more easily you've run out of straws to grasp.

You misunderstand me; I'm saying that headcapping builds are not that big a deal and that LRMs are still a beautiful thing to have on your side when you're in a furballl fight; even if their damage is reduced they still give you a rock 'em, sock 'em robot.

[Sephlock]

Please read what was actually said in the OP. In fact:

Fate 6, on 24 March 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

I've got to say, I think the damage on LRMs and SRMs feels about right at this point. They strip armor and don't instantly destroy exposed sections of your mech.

Unfortunately I think they strip armor a bit too well (this is bug related, but I just want to be clear that it shouldn't just stay similar to what it is now). That is, you can't torso twist to spread damage effectively (mostly relevant vs LRMs), because the splash hits everything. This is particularly unfortunate for mechs like Dragons that run XL engines.

There it is, just in case he changes it.

I had to scroll up to make sure this wasn't a really old thread that just got bumped...

[Voidcrafter]

Galenit, on 24 March 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

A mech with 4 ppcs have 28tons devoted to weapons and can kill a mech in 1 hit.
A mech with 28 tons weapons (2xalrm15, 8tons ammo, tag and 3xml) cant kill a mech in 1 hit. Even if he manages to hold tag on the enemy for the whole flight duration.
Whats easier? Point and click or holding a weapon on a moving target for 2-10 seconds?
Whats easier to dodge? A point and click hitscanweapon or a weapon that warns you and gives you up to 10 seconds to dodge?

Prepatch the damage was ok, punishing the stupid, rewarding you for holding tag on target the whole flight time exposing yourself to snipers and poptards . Maybe a buff to ams was needed.
After patch missiles were op.
But now they are near worthless.

To the op:
If you cant dodge missiles with a dragon when you get the warning its not the missiles that doing wrong ...

What mech can 4xPPCs kill from 900m exactly?
Light one, fast medium one, heavy one, assault one, or stupid one?
Cause, you know, hitting targets with the weapon you named require more concentration and you should have visual contact 100% of the time.
LRMs? Not like that.
If you should go in the open to fire a volley it's not the missiles that went wrong. It's your teammates.
Ooh why should you count on them for anything at all, not to mention to hold the targets?
Why should I count on them for bringing ECM and AMS then?
That's how the game works, and I still continue to think that making LRMs any more powerful will make the game stupid again.
People SHOULD NOT be tolerated toward using of weapon that can lock and hit @ 200<-->1000m.
It does what it does - if you get hit by 2xLRM20s you're armore is stripped off(if you're not badly hit in that case - you're dead).
Most of your armor ANYWHERE, while when I get hit by 2xAC20s I get my armor stripped on a SINGLE body part(I'm with heavy).
Stop whinining about those missiles already - it's the abscent of teamplaying that makes this weapon weak, cause it's mechanics require someone doing the spotting and holding the targets to be effective.
Weight comparissons huh?
LRM20 weights 10 tons, you should compare it with UAC5(9), AC5(8), LBX10(11) and AC10(12)s - how many do you see from those actually?
I play mostly with them, and frankly, I think you should spent more time than a volley flight confronting the target(in direct LOS ofcourse, leaving you open to punishment) to do the same amount of harm as a shot(or to be more realistic - two clicks) from LRM20 will cause.
The hell do you want more?
Fire and Forget with 100% hit? Less effort to do 1k+ damage? Better teammates?
Ability to shoot 2xLRM20s in brawl range? Splash damage on the missiles? Guaranteed 20-fired-20-hit missiles state while you're holding the lock?
It IS not a precission weapon, never was and god I hope it would never become one.
It should be a long range shotgun, that sprays missiles over a target, rendering it weaker and easier to kill for your teammates.
That's what it should do. That's what it's doing now.
Don't see the point yet?
Stop. Looking. For. Easy. Mode.

[Galenit]

You can kill a lot mechs with a lucky hit, not only in the head ....
With an lrm you spray all over the target and can not aim for a part of a mech.
A onehit is nearly impossible and i dont want it, but:

Firing lrms without los but with lock shoot make them spray&pray not doing much but forcing the enemy to cover. This can be done with a much greater basespread of the missilecloud.

Firing them with artemins and tag exposing you and holding tag the whole flightduration on the enemy should be more rewarding and do more concentrated damage. In the los/tag version is should be nearly as deadly as other weapons.

You see what i mean?
Dont make indirect fire better, maybe make it more worse but reward exposing and using systems to upgrade them to make them a "direct fire weapon" when used this way. Nearly as feared then other weapons of the same tonnage, like the 4 ppcs against the 2xartemisbiglauncherwithtagandlos ...

Nearly as .... something to discuss about.
Boating, the biggest problem for missiles, thats why i talk about 30-40 missiles and not the massive boats with 50-80 lrms ....

Edited by Galenit, 25 March 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[Voidcrafter]

Galenit, on 25 March 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

You can kill a lot mechs with a lucky hit, not only in the head ....
With an lrm you spray all over the target and can not aim for a part of a mech.
A onehit is nearly impossible and i dont want it, but:

Firing lrms without los but with lock shoot make them spray&pray not doing much but forcing the enemy to cover. This can be done with a much greater basespread of the missilecloud.

Firing them with artemins and tag exposing you and holding tag the whole flightduration on the enemy should be more rewarding and do more concentrated damage. In the los/tag version is should be nearly as deadly as other weapons.

You see what i mean?
Dont make indirect fire better, maybe make it more worse but reward exposing and using systems to upgrade them to make them a "direct fire weapon" when used this way. Nearly as feared then other weapons of the same tonnage, like the 4 ppcs against the 2xartemisbiglauncherwithtagandlos ...

Nearly as .... something to discuss about.
Boating, the biggest problem for missiles, thats why i talk about 30-40 missiles and not the massive boats with 50-80 lrms ....

Well you talk about 30-40 missiles and not the masive boating, but you're comparing it to 4xPPC build, which is purely boating if you ask me.
PPCs weights 7 tons, as LRM15 does, but producin quite more heat, tho LRMs need ammo - let we say, just in the interest of pointless comparissons, that this equals the equation.
*IF* I get hit by 60 LRMs I highly doubt that would hurt less than 4xPPCs
Tho again - this is a dumb comparing of things that have almost nothing to do with eachother.
You know... I always get to cover when I see "WARNING: INCOMING MISSILE!!" blinking on my screen. And thus my team get's cut off from my mech's firepower, my ability to support them and all I can contribute for the team for about 10-15secs(you move behind the cover, you wait for missiles to hit it, you move out of the cover).
Sometimes even because of that the missiles have done far greater harm than the damage itself. And you can easily make that "sometimes" more like "most of the time".
Not that you don't get supressed by other weapons in the game(AC5/2/10 / UAC5, (ER)PPCs, Gauss) but it's different.
So again - 4xPPC is boating for me - you hardly can have this and not be useless under 80m range, or mount any other weapon that can provide good defense.
Or in that matter be heat efficient at all.
So you kinda counterweight yourself
LRMs still hurt enough to make you run to cover, and if you do not - they grind your armor making you far more fragile target for the rest of the enemy team.
I think that's just the way it should work.

[Prime2310]

MustrumRidcully, on 24 March 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

What mech can be killed with 40 damage? Even a Cicada can have 40 CT armour, and there are still 24 tons of internal structure to be broken through? Or do we only assume head shots here?
And you forgot to count heat sinks for both variations.

i have been 1 shotted with my catapult k2. with standard armor... PPC's does minor splash damage. i use LRM's and i agree that they are just about pathetic now. UP THE DAMAGE AGAIN !!!!

[Grayseven]

Damage per ton per heat is spot on for a 1000m indirect fire weapon in my opinion. So is damage at this point.

LRM's fulfill a support weapon role. They allow you to soften up enemy mechs as they close if they aren't smart about cover. Boats are still scarily effective against mechs in the open, but I think more people are learning to respect LRMs and are using cover more effectively to minimize their effect...especially after the effect they were having before the hotfix.

Boats are finding themselves to be targets worthy of quick dispatch even now, meaning that eschewing a few medium lasers for a few more tons of ammo is a path to quick destruction.

More mechs are moving away from massed LRM fire to a more balanced load out and are finding themselves much more effective. A pair of LRM 15's or 20's are enough to make mechs respect cover without denying the LRM owner defense against close in mechs. This is especially true if you have a few mechs sporting LRM's instead of just one with all of them.

One of the scariest things I've seen was a match in Tourmaline where our light mech made a move on the middle node and 8 separate LRM launches left his armor in tatters since he had no where to hide from all of them.

[StalaggtIKE]

Oni Ralas, on 24 March 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

It's guided if the trajectory of the projectlie changes. A mortar fired into a set of chords is dumbfire. A mortar that is fired at a set of provided cords that changes it's flight pattern (ie: where the mortar originated from isn't relevant as long as it is within range) is a guided one.

If I don't have to have any form of LoS (or, maintain it), then the act of spotting has been moved to the responsibility of my forward observer. This would make running a spider w/ TAG *much* more interesting... ECM to ninja yourself behind the lines, paint a target, watch the rain come down.

I miss understood your original statement.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 25 March 2013 - 04:47 AM.