67 replies to this topic

[Oni Ralas]

PhoenixFire55, on 25 March 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

Please enlighten me what "correct" strategies are we talking about now? Because if "correct" means smth apart from the "lock-target-smb-else-is-keeping-for-me-press-button-for-the-win" strategy then I'm all for them.

More like:

spot target with range mods
Broadcast new target
lock target
check map to see location of red arrow
if arrow in open/known accessible location, fire
else
Call for visual spot
Visual spot? If no, hold fire. If yes, fire single chain
Does missile hit?
If so, RTT good, fire salvo
Re-check target position on map
Call for continued fire or hold fire


Lot of work for an i-win button that doesn't really hit all that hard, has visual/audio warnings and can be countered 5 different ways.

[PhoenixFire55]

Oni Ralas, on 25 March 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

More like:

spot target with range mods
Broadcast new target
lock target
check map to see location of red arrow
if arrow in open/known accessible location, fire
else
Call for visual spot
Visual spot? If no, hold fire. If yes, fire single chain
Does missile hit?
If so, RTT good, fire salvo
Re-check target position on map
Call for continued fire or hold fire

Lot of work for an i-win button that doesn't really hit all that hard, has visual/audio warnings and can be countered 5 different ways.

Pretty much same you do on any other mech. Its just that on any other mech you are also circling in between enemy and friendly mechs while being fired at the same time and twisting you torso to and fro giving them different locations to hit AND dodging incoming frienldy LRMs that has no 'incoming missile' warning. Anyone who is saying that playing LRM boat isn't easier then playing a scout / brawler / direct fire support doesn't know what he is talking about. It might not be 'I-win' button now, but it was prior to ECM.

[M0rpHeu5]

Your title encourage troll posting , just saying

[Oni Ralas]

M0rpHeu5, on 25 March 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Your title encourage troll posting , just saying

Funny, that's when you showed up

[StalaggtIKE]

PhoenixFire55, on 25 March 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

Pretty much same you do on any other mech. Its just that on any other mech you are also circling in between enemy and friendly mechs while being fired at the same time and twisting you torso to and fro giving them different locations to hit AND dodging incoming frienldy LRMs that has no 'incoming missile' warning. Anyone who is saying that playing LRM boat isn't easier then playing a scout / brawler / direct fire support doesn't know what he is talking about. It might not be 'I-win' button now, but it was prior to ECM.

Anyone claiming sitting indoors with A/C playing a video game is hard, needs to be committed.
Neither are difficult nor can varying levels of difficulty be measured between them.

• A PPC has near instantaneous travel speed, delivers all upon impact and requires no ammo, yet you must have los to the target
  
• LRM will hone in to a target over a 1000m away, yet has a warning that alerts the target of the slow missiles heading its way

They all have strengths and weaknesses. One is dependent on the user's aiming ability, while the other is dependent upon the user's ability to project flight pattern and the target's response.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 25 March 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[Yankee77]

StalaggtIKE, on 25 March 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

• A PPC has near instantaneous travel speed, delivers all upon impact and requires no ammo, yet you must have los to the target
  
• LRM will hone in to a target over a 1000m away, yet has a warning that alerts the target of the slow missiles heading its way

They all have strengths and weaknesses. One is dependent on the user's aiming ability, while the other is dependent upon the user's ability to project flight pattern and the target's response.

Indeed, and add to that that LRMs can also be shut down by an ECM mech being close, whereas direct fire weapons are not.

This is why LRMs are downright not competitive right now, because they simply cannot be used reliably enough to be worth the tonnage, not when the damage is so low. When they were bugged it was not as big a deal, because the few times they DID work they'd tear you completely apart, and so they were used even in 8 mans. But now they do moderate damage, but are much harder to use in a competitive arena than PPCs, and thus they are underpowered.

There's one of two solutions, IMO:

1- Up the damage so that LRMs are useful despite being hard to use in the competitive arena. This has the side effect of making LRMs murderous in 4-mans and pug matches, where LRMs are much more easy to use.

2- Rework ECM so they don't shut down LRMs, keep the damage as is. This way LRMs can be used far more frequently in competitive matches, and casual matches will not be overwhelmed by LRMs (no worse than they are today).

And that's really the main problem we have right now: LRMs are easy weapons to use against unskilled enemies and pugs, but difficult weapons to use against skilled enemies (who know how to use ECM and cover effectively). So in balancing them you either end up with something useful in 8-mans that completely slaughters pugs, or something reasonable against pugs that is not worth the tonnage in 8-mans.

Thank you.

[KingCobra]

Itkovian, on 25 March 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Indeed, and add to that that LRMs can also be shut down by an ECM mech being close, whereas direct fire weapons are not.

This is why LRMs are downright not competitive right now, because they simply cannot be used reliably enough to be worth the tonnage, not when the damage is so low. When they were bugged it was not as big a deal, because the few times they DID work they'd tear you completely apart, and so they were used even in 8 mans. But now they do moderate damage, but are much harder to use in a competitive arena than PPCs, and thus they are underpowered.

There's one of two solutions, IMO:

1- Up the damage so that LRMs are useful despite being hard to use in the competitive arena. This has the side effect of making LRMs murderous in 4-mans and pug matches, where LRMs are much more easy to use.

2- Rework ECM so they don't shut down LRMs, keep the damage as is. This way LRMs can be used far more frequently in competitive matches, and casual matches will not be overwhelmed by LRMs (no worse than they are today).

And that's really the main problem we have right now: LRMs are easy weapons to use against unskilled enemies and pugs, but difficult weapons to use against skilled enemies (who know how to use ECM and cover effectively). So in balancing them you either end up with something useful in 8-mans that completely slaughters pugs, or something reasonable against pugs that is not worth the tonnage in 8-mans.

Thank you.

First I think missile damage is getting close to reality with LRM's and SSRMS.As to ECM yes it should work like it does but have a timed limit say 10 seconds on 10 seconds off repeating until the ECM unit is destroyed it also evens out the balance between combatants for streaks. I also think LRM's should have knockdown like in the old PC MechWarrior games physics alone should tell you being hit by even 5-10 missiles of this size should knock a mech off of its feet. I would say missiles stripping armor is part of there explosive nature. Now I have to ask where it the AOE effect of missiles in MWO?

Edited by KingCobra, 25 March 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[Fate 6]

Oni Ralas, on 24 March 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Damage per ton/per heat is still off. This was a quick fix, they will be increased to previous levels (like 2 patches ago) and be pretty ballanced.

Some will cry "but it's a support weapon!" - there is no such thing in the current itteration of the mechanics. Support weapons is a crutch word to describe things that, according to some, shouldn't hit very hard (ie: does not fit with their play style). In reallity, a support weapon is down right *destructive*, but requires coordination and infrastructure. LRM's may be "easy mode" in some eyes due to the lock'n'fire mechanics - but the fact that the entire volley's damage must hit to be effective, with so many factors (flight time, cover, mech speed, ecm, ams) that they are far harder to do *correctly* than most give credit for. As it stands now, there isn't much point taking them out if the damage is so low vs. all the other modifiers on the field.

I agree that LRMs aren't easy mode weapons. I've never thought they were, they just need a different skillset. The problem we were seeing even before the LRM bug was a general sense of stalemating, with snipers and LRM mechs on both sides basically keeping everything else out of the fight for 3-4+ minutes. Right now it's possible to run to cover with mechs that don't go super fast and not die.

If you look at the % damage done to a mech and compare it to something easy to compare such as a medium laser, missiles to about the right amount of damage right now.