283 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

KinLuu, on 25 March 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

Dual gauss/ac20 works fine as well.

Massive ammounts of PPCs are not that effective, because every 2nd game now is on tourrette desert.

At least the game is not about SRMs anymore.

It never was. It simply meant you could brawl..

If I can't brawl, I won't be playing. And I haven't been playing. COINCIDENCE!?

Edited by Vassago Rain, 25 March 2013 - 02:36 AM.

[Jetfire]

Umm, what? Boost SRM's? They are still solid as all heck. I had a splat cat 1 shot a full armor leg yesterday then rip me to shreds with two salvos. How is that weak? I was ripping up mechs with my 4xSRM6+Art JAG-A. LRM's maybe could use a small buff eventually after testing, but I think SRM's are about perfect.

Very glad the have fixed the multiple impact bug and the low missile damage to legs bug. Happy they quickly realized splash was insane, now they can collect honest stats and rebalance the weapons systems accordingly.

Edited by Jetfire, 25 March 2013 - 02:42 AM.

[Sol Fin]

MOAR tears about SRMs, moar!

[Sifright]

Sol Fin, on 25 March 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

MOAR tears about SRMs, moar!

This is the level of argument bring brought to the table by detractors.

Do you really want to side with this?

[MustrumRidcully]

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Okay very simple questions, was the 1.8 damage of an LRM missile, just that 1.8 damage and not any extra, was that too much damage in your opinion? Was the 2.5 damage of an SRM, just that 2.5 and not any extra, too much damage in your opinion?

How can we be sure what would be okay, if we've never actually seen SRMs and LRMs do this amount of damage?

By the numbers alone I think it might be a bit too much. My "spreadsheet warrior" analysis always suggested that missiles where much more efficient in dealing damage than any other weapon. But I never knew how to account for the difference between pin-point precision and the scatter effect of missiles.

I am now somewhat closer to knowing this difference - We finally have accuracy stats and can determine how well we hit (but we still don't know how much of those hits are where they were intended to go.)

[MustrumRidcully]

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

So if I were to ask you if you jumped off the grand canyon, would you survive yes or no? You would not be able to answer because you never jumped off the grand canyon. Amazing but true.

False example.

Would you survive jumping of the grand canyon if your bones were made from metal and gravity was reduced to 10 % of its current value?

I don't know. It could probably be calculated in some manner, but I am not versed enough in the biophysical details of falling to make a good guess.

I am missing some data.

If SRMs and LRMs were pin-point weapons (or worse, always hit center torso), then I say - no, 2.5 per missile or 1.7-1.8 per missile is too much.

[KinLuu]

Vassago Rain, on 25 March 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

It never was. It simply meant you could brawl..

If I can't brawl, I won't be playing. And I haven't been playing. COINCIDENCE!?

AC20 builds can still brawl. MLas builds can still brawl. LPLas builds can still WUBWUBWUB.

SRMs were nerfed quite hard, but if I understood it correctly, it is only a temporary emergency solution.

/e: Besides, SRMs have been massiveley overpowered for a long time. Something needed to be done.
Now they only need to find a balanced middle ground between the op-state pre hotfix and the up-state post hotfix.

Edited by KinLuu, 25 March 2013 - 03:38 AM.

[NGxT]

its fun that my double gauss, 4mlas 3d (no jj, **** poptarting, just learn to engage better) is back to viable in brawling distances, but its made me no longer enjoy my d-dc... the only atlas i drive now is my 4xllas 1gauss rs, and even then, only occasionally... no point taking an assault when i can take a faster heavy with the same firepower...

the missile nerf was a nerf to mixed armament brawler assaults who were limited by hardpoints, not tonnage, namely, the atlas series, due to lack of arm hardpoints, and multiple hardpoint groupings within the same sections... the ac20 is a bad compliment to a llas atlas as it relegates all that tonnage and space to a secondary weapon outside of optimal engagement range, and leaving out the 3x srm6 pack, for say, a lplas energy upgrade for brawling is not enough dps, nor does it give enough crit space to put in the heat sinks to make it viable...

also, as noted, it was a huge nerf to otherwise semi viable speed mediums, like the hunch and cent, as well as even the mlas and srm6 lights (hurt them less cause at least they are still 140kph), who relied on doing the one thing they did semi reasonably well, brawling, to remain viable. there's no replacement for the brawling dps lost by these builds, which takes them out of their one niche that was even SEMI viable...
i see exactly where vassago is coming from, and i miss using my srm brawlers, and even my 4xart lrm15 stalker, but really, i enjoy playing all sorts of different mech styles and configs, so i'm probably not the normal pilot... just gives me a chance to play something else while it's higher on the power totem pole than my d-dc...

i stopped playing yun after his nerfs in super street fighter 4, and i stopped playing shen for a long time when he was still trash in league of legends... if missiles never come back into viability in mwo, i just won't ever go back to using srms/lrms again...

that being said, i don't run lbx or machines guns, or ac5/10, or other trash weapons either, but it doesn't mean i don't recognize they suck... i'd like to see missiles back into viability, because more choices are always good, and the atlas is a bit underpowered right now anyways, since they took away its king brawler crown... all it means is that until they fix it, i won't touch it...

sure would like to see missiles viable again, but i'd also like to see viable mg, viable lbx, viable ac other than uac5 and ac20, etc etc... im still playing a game with a ton of non-viable **** weapons already, whats a few more? just means more time in the mechlab...

[Joseph Mallan]

TrentTheWanderer, on 24 March 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

The problem you are having with understanding this is that the issue wasn't a "minor" bug, it was a "MAJOR" bug, one that will take them a significant amount of time to code. Instead of allowing the entire playerbase to be affected by the bug for the duration of the time they will need to code a correction, they introduced a stopgap damage reduction.

When they have fixed the damaged code the actually damage values of SRMs will be re-balanced and returned to a non-temporary damage configuration.

If the damage being done was 7 times the intended damage, and the hot fix was to correct that issue, shouldn't leaving the base damage (2.5 per missile) been left alone to see if the splash problem was fixed properly? The Wolf has the right of it. If the intent was to correct a coding problem with 'splash damage', why nerf the base damage?

Now to the point of Nerfing the damage. If you are boating 6 SRM you are now doing 72 damage instead of 90 with a Splat Cat. 72 Damage is still respectable (I had Atlas that did that kind of damage). You also have to have 6 SRMs to deliver that damage. Would you still use a Gauss if the damage was Nerfed by almost 50%? Or would you complain that the reduction is to much?

So Wolf is saying it right. If you are not addressing the actual issue (splash damage fix) yet pointing and laughing (L2P), You are just hiding you are missing the point.

I don't normally support Vass. I also am getting a small amount of satisfaction seeing him bent out of sorts. But his point is valid. We should have Missiles returned to MWO normal damage with the removed Splash and see if that fixed the intended problem. If it did, good fix the next issue. If it didn't nerf damage a little at a time till there is the least complaining.

We had a knee jerk response to an issue and it is once again pitting the community against itself. We have already learned in Closed Beta that 1.5 damage on LRMs was to low, So going to 0.7 is better how??? SRMs are always to powerful since My time in Closed Beta, but they were not Majorly so. Dropping to TT damage (2 per missile) would have been fine.

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

If the damage being done was 7 times the intended damage, and the hot fix was to correct that issue, shouldn't leaving the base damage (2.5 per missile) been left alone to see if the splash problem was fixed properly? The Wolf has the right of it. If the intent was to correct a coding problem with 'splash damage', why nerf the base damage?

The thing is - they didn't actually fix the splat damage. They just lowered its radius and its damage. They couldn't just outright remove it and leave things as they are, as it turned out that LRMs also would then all hit the center torso of the targeted mech.

That means their damage output would be just as pin-point precise as any direct-fire weapon. A 4 LRM15 mech should not deal 102 damage alphas per salvo.

But the solution is (supposedly) temporary. So we may see 1.0, 1.5, 1,7 or 123.4 damage missiles eventually, depending on what works.


----

I'd say even a good player will ikely not exceed 75 % damage utilization* with a direct fire weapon.
An average player probably sits at 65 % or something like that.

Let's say an LRM salvo will end up with 25 % of the missiles hitting CT, the remaining 75 % of the missiles being split on the side torsos, legs and arms.
Then the damage output of LRMs should be in the range of a direct fire weapon with equal weight investment (also considering ammo and heat investment required for a typical engagement and match.)
This means you deal 150 % damage total, but your pin-point accuracy is only 25 %, so overall the pin-point damage utilization is at 37.5 %, which is only 50 % of the optimal pin-point damage utlization we suggest for a direct-fire weapon. But the overall damage is still 50 % higher. This sounds like it might be balanced.

But I don't know what this would translate to in terms of damage per missile.

And of course, if the LRMs don't always hit (because mechs are too fast, AMS, ECM, whatever), things get more complicated.


*) damage utilization is the same as accuracy for most cases and weapons ,but beware of lasers - one single hit with a laser tick is scored as a laser hit, even if the remaining ticks all miss the target. For those, it's better to use measured damage / (number of shots fired * weapon damage per shot).

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

Davers, on 24 March 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

I also didn't mention twin gauss builds, or 6 PPC builds. I believe 'one shot' or 'two shot' kills really are against the spirit of the source material. But that boat has already sailed (pun intended). But builds like these are the reason medium mechs aren't better represented. Who will doubt that if the King Crab came into game the Atlas would become a second class assault mech?

I have never been one-shotted in this game except by headshots and LRMs during the short-lived LRM-pocalypse.

Mazzyplz, on 24 March 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

twin ac20 is DOMINATING.

what game are you playing??? certainly not this one

They did nothing to the ac/20. What would you have PGI do? Increase SRM damage? Then the splatcat comes back. Nerf AC/20? Then the gauss cat comes back. Unless all weapons do the same alpha and the same DPS, produce the same heat and all weigh the same, there is always going to be a *best* weapon and we're all just going to have to live with that.

This is not the battletech RP you want it to be; it's a competitive shooter. Suck it up, buttercup.

Edited by Narcisoldier, 25 March 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[F lan Ker]

S!

I would wait for 2nd of April when the supposed missile revamp is due. After that run tests and see what is changed and what is not. Until then it is just "suck it up" as many say here. I do not rely on "face hugging while spamming SRM" tactics anyway. If that is the only way for people to play a good brawl, good for them. Brawl for me is not an orgy of Mechs in a lump firing off SRM but a good "dance" of Mechs utilizing terrain, elevation etc. to gain the upper hand while doing damage.

Edited by F lan Ker, 25 March 2013 - 06:53 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

Narcisoldier, on 25 March 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

I have never been one-shotted in this game except by headshots and LRMs during the short-lived LRM-pocalypse.




They did nothing to the ac/20. What would you have PGI do? Increase SRM damage? Then the splatcat comes back. Nerf AC/20? Then the gauss cat comes back. Unless all weapons do the same alpha and the same DPS, produce the same heat and all weigh the same, there is always going to be a *best* weapon and we're all just going to have to live with that.

This is not the battletech RP you want it to be; it's a competitive shooter. Suck it up, buttercup.

I'm making that my new sig.

[Vassago Rain]

It's too bad my atlas has arms slung low, so it can't properly snipe with big energy. Almost as if that wasn't its intended role, or something...

[PaintedWolf]

Vassago Rain, on 25 March 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

It's too bad my atlas has arms slung low, so it can't properly snipe with big energy. Almost as if that wasn't its intended role, or something...

Yeah I know, they are balancing the game around generalist builds....when role-warfare was emphasized at the beginning. Starting the basic framework as role warfare and then catering to those who want more generalist builds is going to create a lot of problems.

[Gaan Cathal]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

If the damage being done was 7 times the intended damage, and the hot fix was to correct that issue, shouldn't leaving the base damage (2.5 per missile) been left alone to see if the splash problem was fixed properly? The Wolf has the right of it. If the intent was to correct a coding problem with 'splash damage', why nerf the base damage?

This isn't the fix for that though, this a temporary bodge while they stop the fix making all missiles epic torso-seeking death-bullets. An underpowered weapon for a while is better than an overpowered weapon for a while. A shame, but nonetheless true. I don't necessarily disagree that SRMs and LRMs could do with more punch than they have now, but it's pointless adjusting them up at the moment because the missile behaviour we have now is not the missile behaviour we're intended to have at all. Once the splash is gone, then is the time to assess missile balance and correct for under/overpowered-ness. I'd not get too up in arms about it unless we hear nothing on the 2^nd​ - then it'll be worth yammering for information (I certainly will be if we have no word by the intended patch date, I'll accept lack of patch due to technical issues but they need to make it clear what's going on).

[Sol Fin]

Sifright, on 25 March 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

This is the level of argument bring brought to the table by detractors.

Do you really want to side with this?

Yes I do Mostly because amount of actually useful info is very, very small. That's why I happily fell down into the trolling pit

Edited by Sol Fin, 25 March 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gaan Cathal, on 25 March 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

This isn't the fix for that though, this a temporary bodge while they stop the fix making all missiles epic torso-seeking death-bullets. An underpowered weapon for a while is better than an overpowered weapon for a while. A shame, but nonetheless true. I don't necessarily disagree that SRMs and LRMs could do with more punch than they have now, but it's pointless adjusting them up at the moment because the missile behaviour we have now is not the missile behaviour we're intended to have at all. Once the splash is gone, then is the time to assess missile balance and correct for under/overpowered-ness. I'd not get too up in arms about it unless we hear nothing on the 2^nd​ - then it'll be worth yammering for information (I certainly will be if we have no word by the intended patch date, I'll accept lack of patch due to technical issues but they need to make it clear what's going on).

Says you? I am all for more powerful over wimpy weapons.

[Captain Stiffy]

I can sum up the SRM thing really easily:

NOBODY FEARS THEM NOW. They just ignore the impulse and trash you because they KNOW THE DPS IS WAY TOO LOW!

Enemies know for a fact that their 4LL's are going to wreck you before your 4 SRM 6's do **** to them.

[Gaan Cathal]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Says you? I am all for more powerful over wimpy weapons.

I meant more from the perspective of the game than the man holding the AK that just turned into a musket. Overpowered weapon = every other weapon sucks. Underpowered weapon = one weapon sucks. (Or at any rate, only one weapon sucks as a result of that action. I'm looking at you, Machine Gun)

Captain Stiffy, on 25 March 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

I could sum up the LLAS thing really easily:

NOBODY USED TO FEAR THEM. They just ignored the damage and trashed you because they KNEW THE DPS WAS WAY TOO LOW!

Enemies knew for a fact that their 4SRM6's were going to wreck you before your 4LLAS's did **** to them.

SeewutIdidthar?

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 25 March 2013 - 01:27 PM.