283 replies to this topic

[Feral Goose]

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Okay, are you saying that the Splatpult was supposed to be doing 90 point Alphas or not?

A Catapult with 6 SRM6 packs should be doing 2X36 missiles equaling 72 damage alphas if your actually able to get all 36 missiles to hit the target

[Thuzel]

Bet that 10 to 15 percent reduction we were preaching a month ago looks really nice right about now...

[DegeneratePervert]

SRMs were totally over-nerfed. Splatcats are still viable because YOU FRIGGING BOAT SIX OF THEM. Boat six of ANYTHING and it probably won't suck. But smaller builds, that used lesser amounts of SRM launchers, got absolutely hammered. They can't compete.

PGI didn't do jack about Splatcats, they nerfed everyone else.

[Trauglodyte]

Gaan Cathal, on 24 March 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

I'll say it again. You are not doing 54 damage with current alpha. There is still splash damage, raising it to a general hit of 75-90dmg. Again, before you were getting >110 easily even against Atlai, against complex-geometry targets you'd get several hundred.

I don't understand all this about the 'bait and switch'. The people you're talking to aren't PGI devs, they're players. The fact some of them are happy about reduced missile damage has no relationship with why PGI put in their hotfix. Similarly, PGI are not these players and these players do not reflect their opinions. For this to be a bait-and-switch PGI (the implementers) and the anti-missile players (the likers) would have to be the same.

You are not Truman Burbank. There is no conspiracy.

They're complaining because they didn't read the Dev not or are going off of what someone else said about the Dev note thereby compounding their idiocy. If your SRM is doing 1.5 damage, it is also doing an additional 0.75 splash damage. The LRM is doing 0.7 damage and an additional 0.35 splash damage. SRMs are, technically, still doing more than TT but at least LRMs are doing listed numbers.

[PaintedWolf]

Trauglodyte, on 24 March 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Splash damage is still in. They just reduced the amount of damage done by the missile so that the splash damage didn't compound the problem.

But they could have just reduced splash damage further or removed it entirely, reducing missile damage by 50% creates far more complications. That is like hacking someone's arm off because they complained of a broken finger.

In any case, in one of the videos I posted on the thread I made and provided a link to a Commando receives 2 direct A1 Splatpult salvos before going down due to allied fire. If this bug was so common and prevalent, and had the dramatic effect of increasing SRM damage by a magnitude of 2-7 fold (which is a huge, HUGE amount of damage) then how did it survive two full volleys?

That is 72 missiles, minus maybe a few. So the bug did not appear for certain in 72 missiles? Again, maybe it is there, maybe it does happen sometimes, but it is not so common or effective, as can be shown in the 5 videos presented and the dozens you can find on youtube that a sweeping emergency change needed to be implemented.

[Gaan Cathal]

DegeneratePervert, on 24 March 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

SRMs were totally over-nerfed. Splatcats are still viable because YOU FRIGGING BOAT SIX OF THEM. Boat six of ANYTHING and it probably won't suck. But smaller builds, that used lesser amounts of SRM launchers, got absolutely hammered. They can't compete.

PGI didn't do jack about Splatcats, they nerfed everyone else.

You're a moron. Nothing was nerfed. Read the ******* following before you post more on this ****:

Paul Inouye, on 21 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS MESSAGE:
This is a TEMPORARY fix to quell the damage done by missiles at this time. We are fully investigating the damage model AND focusing on the grouping of missiles and will update as soon as we can on how any changes will be managed/implemented.

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

But they could have just reduced splash damage further or removed it entirely, reducing missile damage by 50% creates far more complications. That is like hacking someone's arm off because they complained of a broken finger.

Dear god....no they couldn't. They tried it and it made all missiles home right for the CT. This is a temporary fix.

As for a Commando taking two volleys to kill, you're discounting missed missiles and for some reason assuming that that several hundred damage won't be spread across the entire mech. Doesn't mean several hundred damage isn't broken, since you get them to a point you can kill them with a tickle from one MLAS to any component. Non-pinpoint damage =/= no damage.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 24 March 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Phatel]

Bugged weapons doing 4 x the damage they are supposed to. Please put back in game, unable to play without them.

[Shadowsword8]

Merky Merc, on 24 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Le sigh, the missile hotfix only boned non-boating missile mechs. 1-3 hardpoints with missiles? GG don't even bother with them. It's made my medium mechs even more useless in comparison to heavy mechs.

Explain how "nerfing" a weapon is going to impact a mech that use 1-3 of them more than it will impact another that will use 4-6 of them.

It just doesn't make sense.

[Davers]

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Okay, are you saying that the Splatpult was supposed to be doing 90 point Alphas or not? I mean pretend the bug did not exist, are you further arguing that a 90 point alpha is over-powered? Because then that would make sense about the problem being fixed by the sweeping change, but that point is not justified by the existence or regular occurrence of the splash damage bug.

Simply put that was not the reason given for the hot fix, and that being the reason changes the nature of the discussion entirely.

A1's never only did a 90 point alpha. In fact, they were always supposed to do more (2.5 plus splash damage each missile). The problem is that they were doing FAR MORE splash damage then they were supposed to.

Until this whole thing came to light, I and believe most of the community thought missiles did 2.5 damage, divided into the number of sections hit. This has NEVER been the case. It has always been 2.5 to location hit, PLUS splash damage. Now we don't know what splash damage actually is, but if missiles were doing 12.9 damage, that is a LOT more than 2.5.

Whether SRMs are too strong/weak at 2.5 plus splash is not what this discussion is about- we will have to wait until things are actually working before we can decide that.

Whether the A1 with 6 missile slots is too strong when loaded with SRMs is not what this discussion is about. When missiles are working correctly then we can see if the A1's damage is totally out of line with other heavy mechs.

[Phatel]

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

But they could have just reduced splash damage further or removed it entirely, reducing missile damage by 50% creates far more complications. That is like hacking someone's arm off because they complained of a broken finger.

As stated if you "read" the note he posted. Nerfing the splash resulted in finding another "bug" where almost all missles are focusing on CT instead of across the entire mech as was intended.

So long story short. Your damage has been godly due to a splash damage bug and far to many missles are hitting the same area so you are coring mechs to easily. Missles are broken, broken and oh ya, broken. This fix was the first right move they have made to address the gross OP that missles have been since closed beta and roughly the Artemis launch.

The fact you are not 2 shotting mechs now isn't a sign your weapons are garbage, it's called balance.

Edited by Phatel, 24 March 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[PaintedWolf]

Gaan Cathal, on 24 March 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

I'll say it again. You are not doing 54 damage with current alpha. There is still splash damage, raising it to a general hit of 75-90dmg. Again, before you were getting >110 easily even against Atlai, against complex-geometry targets you'd get several hundred.

I don't understand all this about the 'bait and switch'. The people you're talking to aren't PGI devs, they're players. The fact some of them are happy about reduced missile damage has no relationship with why PGI put in their hotfix. Similarly, PGI are not these players and these players do not reflect their opinions. For this to be a bait-and-switch PGI (the implementers) and the anti-missile players (the likers) would have to be the same.

If the problem was splash damage in some Mechs, then splash damage needs to be reduced or eliminated.

If the problem is that missiles are in general doing too much damage, then the reduction of damage by almost 40% is not justified by the current hot fix and it is hard to see how this balanced out the game by any means.

As for the above claims, that is more extrapolation we need to accept at face value, which is part of what started this problem in the first place. I'm sorry, but I'm not accepting any more claims like that at face value.

Gaan Cathal, on 24 March 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

You are not Truman Burbank. There is no conspiracy.

Again, one not need posit a conspiracy when simple human fallibility will suffice.

[Feral Goose]

DegeneratePervert, on 24 March 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

SRMs were totally over-nerfed. Splatcats are still viable because YOU FRIGGING BOAT SIX OF THEM. Boat six of ANYTHING and it probably won't suck. But smaller builds, that used lesser amounts of SRM launchers, got absolutely hammered. They can't compete.

PGI didn't do jack about Splatcats, they nerfed everyone else.

So let me get this straight, a lighter mech with less armor only got creamed if it took a full salvo of SRMs? So your saying that same light mech with less armore just shrugs off AC/20 hits, or guass hits, or ppc hits? A light mech with little armore gets hurt easier?? what a concept. I wish they had something to balance it out like being able to go fast and dodge

[Davers]

Sifright, on 24 March 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

the problem is of course that splash damage being part of the 'normal' damage calculation is terrible.

Srms do a maximum of 1.5 damage to a single component(Per missile) right now. given the lack of state rewind for missiles and the shotgun effect srms just became pretty worthless.

Until you realize that SRMs are NOT hitting for only 1.5 damage per missile, then there is not point continuing this conversation.

[PaintedWolf]

Davers, on 24 March 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

A1's never only did a 90 point alpha. In fact, they were always supposed to do more (2.5 plus splash damage each missile). The problem is that they were doing FAR MORE splash damage then they were supposed to.

Until this whole thing came to light, I and believe most of the community thought missiles did 2.5 damage, divided into the number of sections hit. This has NEVER been the case. It has always been 2.5 to location hit, PLUS splash damage. Now we don't know what splash damage actually is, but if missiles were doing 12.9 damage, that is a LOT more than 2.5.

Whether SRMs are too strong/weak at 2.5 plus splash is not what this discussion is about- we will have to wait until things are actually working before we can decide that.

Whether the A1 with 6 missile slots is too strong when loaded with SRMs is not what this discussion is about. When missiles are working correctly then we can see if the A1's damage is totally out of line with other heavy mechs.

Look at HarmAssassins A1 stats from over 45 battles, they average out to roughly 90 damage an Alpha.

The damage summaries at the end of the video evidence also confirms this. If Missiles were regularly doing 2-7 more damage then expected, these numbers would be way higher. We'd be seeing regular A1 damage outputs of over 2k.

As noted this seems to be a bait and switch tactic/confused reasoning. On the one hand, the rationale for the hot fix is based on a weapon not working as intended against some targets.

On the other, claims are being made now, by three different posters, that the SRMs in general do more damage then intended against all Mechs (i.e. they are doing well above 54 damage post fix. )

Again we are not just asked to accept certain data sets at face value, but also unconnected conclusions based on this data.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 24 March 2013 - 12:07 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

DegeneratePervert, on 24 March 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

SRMs were totally over-nerfed. Splatcats are still viable because YOU FRIGGING BOAT SIX OF THEM. Boat six of ANYTHING and it probably won't suck. But smaller builds, that used lesser amounts of SRM launchers, got absolutely hammered. They can't compete.

PGI didn't do jack about Splatcats, they nerfed everyone else.

Boating is not a magical way to make a weapon more powerful. It is a good trick to benefit from an overpowered weapon however.

If you claim boating is automatically overpowered, have you tried boating small lasers? MGs? Flamers? Medium Pulse Lasers? Small Pulse Lasers? Large Lasers? What of these did you find OP?

[Gaan Cathal]

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

If the problem was splash damage in some Mechs, then splash damage needs to be reduced or eliminated.

If the problem is that missiles are in general doing too much damage, then the reduction of damage by almost 40% is not justified by the current hot fix and it is hard to see how this balanced out the game by any means.

As for the above claims, that is more extrapolation we need to accept at face value, which is part of what started this problem in the first place. I'm sorry, but I'm not accepting any more claims like that at face value.

Le sigh....they tried removing it. It broke the game. This is the temporary solution while they work out how to remove it safely.

As for the damage numbers, there is ample information in both Amaris' threads that highlighted the issue, and Paul's explanation of the hotfix numbers to reach those conclusions. If you're actually interested in the reality of the situation, go look at them. If not, continue your tantrum and try not to get your chair too wet.

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Look at HarmAssassins A1 stats from over 45 battles, they average out to roughly 90 damage an Alpha.

Ah, yeah. Those numbers don't report splash damage. This is a large part of why the bug wasn't discovered until Amaris did some in-depth testing.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 24 March 2013 - 12:07 PM.

[Davers]

Wyld Goose, on 24 March 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

So let me get this straight, a lighter mech with less armor only got creamed if it took a full salvo of SRMs? So your saying that same light mech with less armore just shrugs off AC/20 hits, or guass hits, or ppc hits? A light mech with little armore gets hurt easier?? what a concept. I wish they had something to balance it out like being able to go fast and dodge

2 SRM2s did 50+ damage. That is 4 missiles. This is the problem. A single SRM6 was instant death. If you can't see the problem with this...

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Look at HarmAssassins A1 stats from over 45 battles, they average out to roughly 90 damage an Alpha.

Who is HarmAssassin, where is his link? Good to see that over 45 battles he hit with every SRM he fired.

[TrentTheWanderer]

In this thread: One Kurita goofball trolls the entire forums by pretending to be a complete *****.

[PaintedWolf]

Gaan Cathal, on 24 March 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

I'll say it again. You are not doing 54 damage with current alpha. There is still splash damage, raising it to a general hit of 75-90dmg. Again, before you were getting >110 easily even against Atlai, against complex-geometry targets you'd get several hundred.

If this is the case then the pre-fix video evidence and stats, where SRMs did 40% more damage and had a larger splash radius should show them doing far, far damage then we have seen. Again, we should be seeing damage outputs of 2-3k per match regularly.

Again, we go from claims that this is occurring in some cases sometimes against some Mechs, to new claim that SRMs are, in general, doing more damage then intended i.e. is shown in the stats.

[Feral Goose]

Davers, on 24 March 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

2 SRM2s did 50+ damage. That is 4 missiles. This is the problem. A single SRM6 was instant death. If you can't see the problem with this...

I see ravens and jenners taking 3-5 alpha salvos all the time. Commandos was a different story, but that was mostly due to ammo explosions. A raven shrugging off 7 full salvos like is happening now is a problem. I would have to point out that an well placed AC/20 hit could spell instant death as well.