283 replies to this topic

[Phatel]

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

If the problem was splash damage in some Mechs, then splash damage needs to be reduced or eliminated.

If the problem is that missiles are in general doing too much damage, then the reduction of damage by almost 40% is not justified by the current hot fix and it is hard to see how this balanced out the game by any means.

As for the above claims, that is more extrapolation we need to accept at face value, which is part of what started this problem in the first place. I'm sorry, but I'm not accepting any more claims like that at face value.



Again, one not need posit a conspiracy when simple human fallibility will suffice.

Your inability to locate teh entire 50 page thread that documents how huge the splash damage bug was buffing missle damage does not make it any less true. Take 5 min and use search and you will easily locate where numerous tests were done and the conclusion was simple. Missles were doing far more damage than they should and it was worse the smaller the mech got.

Missles have not been doing 2.5 and never have. People yelled about how op missles were for so long with no attention paid to it that they just gave up yelling. It wasn't until testing grounds came out that players were able to prove that missles were broken and then find what it was that was busted. Then PGI tested it in house and is attempting to fix it.

Despite how you feel about the state of missles, they are far from useless. In current state and with luck, future. They will no longer be an easy boat weapon capable of destroying teams from the other side of the map. They have been and should continue to be a support weapon. When you drop every "heavy" weapon your mech can carry so you can boat more of something...there might be a problem.

All weapons do table top damage except missles for who knows what reason, the fact they found an additonal bug with missles always hitting CT just further shows how broken they have been. GJ PGI and it's about damn time someone addressed this issue wich has been around since closed beta started.

[PaintedWolf]

Phatel, on 24 March 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Your inability to locate teh entire 50 page thread that documents how huge the splash damage bug was buffing missle damage does not make it any less true. Take 5 min and use search and you will easily locate where numerous tests were done and the conclusion was simple. Missles were doing far more damage than they should and it was worse the smaller the mech got.

Missles have not been doing 2.5 and never have. People yelled about how op missles were for so long with no attention paid to it that they just gave up yelling. It wasn't until testing grounds came out that players were able to prove that missles were broken and then find what it was that was busted. Then PGI tested it in house and is attempting to fix it.

Despite how you feel about the state of missles, they are far from useless. In current state and with luck, future. They will no longer be an easy boat weapon capable of destroying teams from the other side of the map. They have been and should continue to be a support weapon. When you drop every "heavy" weapon your mech can carry so you can boat more of something...there might be a problem.

All weapons do table top damage except missles for who knows what reason, the fact they found an additonal bug with missles always hitting CT just further shows how broken they have been. GJ PGI and it's about damn time someone addressed this issue wich has been around since closed beta started.

When I ask for example of missiles regularly doing more damage then expected (i.e. 90 points) I am told I will not find this data because what is being claimed is there is a minor bug causing some increased damage some of the time against certain Mechs, and the examples requested are not common enough to show any significant increase in damage in the overall damage stats at the end of matches (video evidence) or in HarmAssassin's lengthy career as an A1 pilot.

When I note that this minor bug then does not merit an overall reduction in missile damage, I am then told that in general SRMs are doing more then the expected 90 point Alpha. But if this is the case, how come this damage does not appear in the general summaries or does not seem to occur in the video evidence? When I note this, I am re-directed to the above claim.

Again these claims are being lumped together and it is adding confusion discussions concerning the merits or flaws of the hot fix.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 24 March 2013 - 12:19 PM.

[Jabilo]

Yeah,

They have stated it is a temporary measure and they know there are problems.

Next patch a fix should be in and then it will be time for the pitchforks.

Right now we should give them a chance and hopefully they will sort it out!

[Davers]

Wyld Goose, on 24 March 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

I see ravens and jenners taking 3-5 alpha salvos all the time. Commandos was a different story, but that was mostly due to ammo explosions. A raven shrugging off 7 full salvos like is happening now is a problem. I would have to point out that an well placed AC/20 hit could spell instant death as well.

It's a good thing no one ever complained about the Raven'***** box, right?

We don't know which mechs, other than the Commando, are suffering the most from the bug. We do know that ALL mechs are being effected from LRMs homing on CT.

A well placed AC/20 is not instant death even on a head hit on most mechs. In my experience it takes 3 AC/20 hits to down a Raven.

[Dasein]

SRM damage compared to their weight is pretty reasonable now 3*SRM6 is still better than ac/20 and weight less.

[MustrumRidcully]

I think the whole missile thing is probably just a conspiracy like the claim that engine double heat sinks are true double heat sinks.

When has testing by anyone ever actually shown anything?

[Phatel]

Glythe, on 24 March 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

This guy apparently hasn't been in beta long. There have been plenty of times when LRMs were trash. They have been tweaked up and down so many times since august it would make your head spin to sit down and count.

LRMs have been on the up before (many of you probably do not remember when LRMs had homing as if you had kept the lock once they were fired and then they came straight down directly from the sky) and they will rise again to a level of usefulness. Last patch was stupid and everyone was using them because of that.

Asking them to return broken weapons to broken states is a waste of time.

I remember that and I can only remember one time that LRM were ever trash and it lasted 1 day. LRM have always been insanely OP when properly used and even now are far from the garbage people here are trying to claim. The problem isn't missles, it's the people shooting them. People using broken/bugged/op items will refuse to acknowledge that they are not as good as they thought once those weapons are fixed. Good players will just go kill stuff with a diff weapon.

[Gaan Cathal]

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

When I note that this minor bug then does not merit an overall reduction in missile damage, I am then told that in general SRMs are doing more then the expected 90 point Alpha. But if this is the case, how come this damage does not appear in the general summaries or does not seem to occur in the video evidence? When I note this, I am re-directed to the above claim.

Splash damage has never (for some reason) been included in damage reporting, meaning it doesn't show up in player stats or (I think) in endgame summaries.

This thread and this thread show ample evidence of the issue in question, with verifiable numbers that have been replicated by others.

[Phatel]

Davers, on 24 March 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

It's a good thing no one ever complained about the Raven'***** box, right?

We don't know which mechs, other than the Commando, are suffering the most from the bug. We do know that ALL mechs are being effected from LRMs homing on CT.

It is a splash damage bug, all mechs are effected by all missles. it is not exclusive to any mech or missle type. Smaller mechs have a smaller hitbox and thus the damage was easier to see. Med laser shot at a commando did 3% damage, SRM2 shot at same commando did 9% both weapons are 5 dmg.

Bringing in Hitboxs and attempting to justify having a broken mechanic because another mechanic isn't working properly is a poor way to justify your point. Example: Well Raven hitboxs and state rewind are messed up so why nerf missles when I cant even hit them? Answer: Hit boxes, state rewind, weapon damage, weapon value per ton are all completely different topics and should all be discussed on their own.

Edited by Phatel, 24 March 2013 - 12:37 PM.

[Phatel]

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

When I ask for example of missiles regularly doing more damage then expected (i.e. 90 points) I am told I will not find this data because what is being claimed is there is a minor bug causing some increased damage some of the time against certain Mechs, and the examples requested are not common enough to show any significant increase in damage in the overall damage stats at the end of matches (video evidence) or in HarmAssassin's lengthy career as an A1 pilot.

When I note that this minor bug then does not merit an overall reduction in missile damage, I am then told that in general SRMs are doing more then the expected 90 point Alpha. But if this is the case, how come this damage does not appear in the general summaries or does not seem to occur in the video evidence? When I note this, I am re-directed to the above claim.

Again these claims are being lumped together and it is adding confusion discussions concerning the merits or flaws of the hot fix.

http://mwomercs.com/...m-all-missiles/ Link for you, inside you will find test result, videos, discussion of why and how this bug was found and needed to be fixed. It is a huge thread, I recommend you read thru it.

[Phatel]

wrong link but same issue. The above is a link to the same bug amplified by a patch wich fixed another bug (also found in the below link) dealing with legs not taking proper damage.

EDIT: Found it haha http://mwomercs.com/...15/page__st__40 Enjoy the read.

Edited by Phatel, 24 March 2013 - 12:56 PM.

[Davers]

Phatel, on 24 March 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

Bringing in Hitboxs and attempting to justify having a broken mechanic because another mechanic isn't working properly is a poor way to justify your point.

LOL Which broken mechanic are we talking about now? The Raven's hitbox ('aka The Black Hole'), splash damage, LRMs homing on the CT, or the hotfix? I am getting confused...

[TheSteelRhino]

Lrm and srm dmg isnt bad now

Lrms hurt but shouldnt be a killing weapon. They are support weps for softening up targets


Srms do damage but arent absolute killing weps. I have been using them post nerf and like them great. Not on splat cats but on hunchbacks and centurions.

They should probably have each srm do 2 points and lrms 1 each.

[shabowie]

Phatel, on 24 March 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

As stated if you "read" the note he posted. Nerfing the splash resulted in finding another "bug" where almost all missles are focusing on CT instead of across the entire mech as was intended.

The problem is anyone with eyes knew this about artemis LRM within a couple minutes of the Mar 5 patch being rolled out. Internal testing is woeful at PGI sorry to say.

As far as SRM being "underpowered" I'm still having good rounds with 700 to 1000 damage and 4-5 kills in my DDC w 2ml gauss 3xSRM6art. They feel less powerful now than they were a couple months ago before they were broken, but not by much.

Edited by shabowie, 24 March 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[Valkaryie]

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Apparently missiles were nerfed because a "study" showed they were regularly doing 2-7 times their intended damage (the main person behind the "study" claims SRMs were doing as much damage as Gauss Rifles). Ultimately the study came down to a 40 second video of a Mech hitting the legs of a commando 2 times, and the CT 2 times....hardly compelling. Then a series of numbers were presented to be accepted at face value.

I have posted a counter-study based on videos meant to provide context for these numbers/claims. This is along with a Splatcat's players stats over 45 games.

http://mwomercs.com/...splatcat-stats/

Nowhere in the thousands of missiles fired do we see any clear evidence of missiles doing exponentially more damage then intended. The problem is too much data was simply accepted at face value, based on an initial 40 second video. Based on this "research" (one forty second video and a series of numbers taken on faith) a huge sweeping change on all missiles was introduced as an emergency measure.

And even then, the change makes no sense. The claim was because of splash 2-3 light mechs were receiving extra damage. The "hot fixed" reduced splash AND THEN reduced all missile damage by 40%. If the problem was with splash damage, on some light Mechs, primarily due to streaks (as standard SRMs rarely hit lights), why did damage to all missiles have to be reduced by 40% instead of just eliminating splash damage?

They could have just eliminated splash damage on Streaks or reduced it greatly, a 40% across the board cut was not warranted even IF the claimed bug was real, and the data behind the claimed bug was dubious to begin with.

Cry cry now learn to pilot without cheese builds. A raven is not invinsible nor should a splat cat run into a brawl and expect to kill you in 1 shot. SRMs were unbalanced and basically if you ran them you were cheating. How many ravens per match was there before the fix 2 usually and in rare cases 4-5 now tell me that these pilots did not know about the imbalnce of srms and streaks. You are whining cause the I win button has been fixed. So if you want to blame or cry about it look to the 3L pilots who abused the balance. Learn to pilot and line up those shots it may actually take more of them to hit.

[Henree]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 24 March 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

Lrms hurt but shouldnt be a killing weapon. They are support weps for softening up targets

a support weapon is most definitely for killing, one of the better known support weapons is the howitzer.
you are giving your own meaning to words.
having said that, missiles are long range weapons, meant to kill targets.

[Artgathan]

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Apparently missiles were nerfed because a "study" showed they were regularly doing 2-7 times their intended damage (the main person behind the "study" claims SRMs were doing as much damage as Gauss Rifles). Ultimately the study came down to a 40 second video of a Mech hitting the legs of a commando 2 times, and the CT 2 times....hardly compelling. Then a series of numbers were presented to be accepted at face value.

I have posted a counter-study based on videos meant to provide context for these numbers/claims. This is along with a Splatcat's players stats over 45 games.

http://mwomercs.com/...splatcat-stats/

Nowhere in the thousands of missiles fired do we see any clear evidence of missiles doing exponentially more damage then intended. The problem is too much data was simply accepted at face value, based on an initial 40 second video. Based on this "research" (one forty second video and a series of numbers taken on faith) a huge sweeping change on all missiles was introduced as an emergency measure.

And even then, the change makes no sense. The claim was because of splash 2-3 light mechs were receiving extra damage. The "hot fixed" reduced splash AND THEN reduced all missile damage by 40%. If the problem was with splash damage, on some light Mechs, primarily due to streaks (as standard SRMs rarely hit lights), why did damage to all missiles have to be reduced by 40% instead of just eliminating splash damage?

They could have just eliminated splash damage on Streaks or reduced it greatly, a 40% across the board cut was not warranted even IF the claimed bug was real, and the data behind the claimed bug was dubious to begin with.

The results of the study were replicated by many players, whereas the counter study presented above is clearly pushing an agenda. Additionally the counterstudy does NOT utilize any form of a controlled environment, whereas the study that revealed the LRM/SRM damage issue had players engaging targets both in the training grounds and in controlled 1v1 fights in actual matches.

I've personally scored 284 hits with LRM20s, for a total of 881 damage. This translates to 3.1 damage per hit, well above the 1.7 that LRMs were supposed to be previously.

Stop trying to push a personal agenda so that your favorite mech is OP again.

[Davers]

Henri Schoots, on 24 March 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

a support weapon is most definitely for killing, one of the better known support weapons is the howitzer.
you are giving your own meaning to words.
having said that, missiles are long range weapons, meant to kill targets.

Yeah. Grenade launchers and anti-tank guns are support weapons too. Guess anti-tank guns should just soften up tanks so that infantry can kill them?

[Kin3ticX]

I like the nerf to the SRM's and the LRM's. It is punishing stupid mech design and WE ALL KNOW IT. Back to the drawing board suckas, prepare to need more than 1 or 2 weapon groups.

As you can tell, I have grown very tired of all the cheese builds in circulation and the stupid arms race bandwagon it had going.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 24 March 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

Vassago Rain, on 24 March 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

I don't want to snipe, but get in your face Kinda hard to when my rockets cause minimal damage at best, or do nothing at all, at worst.

I liked it better before they started tampering with the system..

and this is after you fought me in my post about not nerfing the SRM.
see what i meant now vassago?

hilarious the kind of buthurt noob that was facehugging a missile mech before, and rightfully getting blown to bits now posting about tears and other nonsense.
why don't you enjoy the game as it is now because you'll be back to losing when they fix them.

right now you can facehug a missile mech with no consequence, just go up to it, tank all the srm, no matter how many. and use ac20 to core their torso.
NOOBMODE is on.

at least before you had to be careful of who you were approaching, you had to read the loadout on that catapult.
i think these fools are the ones who will be back to crying very soon

Edited by Mazzyplz, 24 March 2013 - 01:57 PM.