188 replies to this topic

[Trauglodyte]

Tice Daurus, on 25 March 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

EDITED 03/27/2013: Added new ideas and corrected this to change to what we the fans would be able to suggest as ideas to make this idea work.

I was running over the PAX thread and reading the thread there. Obviously I didn't want to post my thoughts there because it's already 8 pages long and some of those pages are filled with talk of different games, thus I want to see if I could get my questions answered on a sincere level from the Developers.

At this time, we KNOW PGI is a small company. We know you guys are fighting to maintain costs and use the money to where it's needed the most. As I was reading the "So Did Anyone go to the PAX convention?" thread, I ran across this posting:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2125444

Which really boggled my mind watch that part at 33:30. Here is a developer of a game saying this that "We cannot compete with our own customers for the production of content in this environment."

Ok, so then Radko the poster of this suggested something completely brilliant, like the genius that he is...

Why don't we, the fans, create our own maps, and then submit them to PGI?

I then decided to expand on the idea further...PGI gets the legal boys to come up with the words that say, if we use your content, in return for say some MC as compensation, PGI could give the creator, the MC, but the all rights to the map become ours, and we'll use it to help create maps for the worlds we use and use them for future Battle Maps...in legalese, to cover their butts. Or if this isn't possible, PGI can just say that we will only take fan submitted content, and while we cannot compensate you for it, we will at least give you credit for the creation of the map, but all rights from to point that you submit the map to us will mean that the map belongs to us and we can do whatever we want with it afterwards if you post it on our forums.

The fans get the joy of saying that "I helped create this map for PGI to use in the game and they are using it today!" PGI gets some well needed help and they get to get their work for fairly cheap and easy, and they can then focus more of their team to working on more core issues that need the attention, OR at the least, allow the art department to help create maps with previously created work from the fans, along with minor modifications, and BLAMMO!!!...PGI gets a lot more maps done at less of a price.
And before PGI says, we don't know if the fans can do this...

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2123092

Look at these maps by Allfex. He did these in about 15-16 hours of time on his own for practically free (minus the power cost on his own computer). If he can do this, and other people have said that if this can be done by one person, look at the art from the fan fiction art submits that they do. Other people have said "PGI, PLEASE TAKE THIS AND USE THIS!!!" They are begging PGI to take that art and use it.

If we can get more fans to help create the map art and design our own maps, how much of a cost reduction can that be to better help PGI, and ultimately, US the fans?

PGI, you have a huge fan base that can help you with this stuff, correct? If you can get your lawyers to set up some legalese wording to cover your butts on this, and you offer us say some MC or at the least a tiny bit of say "Allfex created this map called Rolling Hills and we're going to feature it!" So he can at least get some noteriety out of it that at least he created it, just to give credit where credit is due with a name mention, what's the harm? If Allfex says, TAKE MY MAPS PLEASE for minor compensation, wouldn't that better help your art department from spending say 50-60+ man hours, to where they could just take the maps, refine them via the Cryengine software, and create a decent map out of them?

It would save your guys time, and we get some really cool maps, and some of us would even get the pride out of saying "I helped create an awesome video game!"

PGI, I would seriously like an answer to this and to see if we can get this in the works. You need help, and we your beta testers and diehard fans WANT to help you. Can we make this happen?

EDIT: And yes, this could be moved to suggestions forum, but I wanted this to be kept to the general discussion forums to see if we can get some people to volunteer to help create maps and help and see if we can build the groundswell interest so PGI can take some notice on this....

FURTHER EDIT: I don't want to turn this into a thread where we are bashing PGI for not being smart or it costing them thousands of dollars to create a map. This thread is for couple of things only...

1) Ask the DEV's if this is possible.
2) To get the ball rolling on this idea as soon as possible.

The goals of this thread would be to set up a forum here for fan/user submitted maps, and we could set the forum up in tiers of checking via volunteerism.

Tier 1 would be the fan submitting his own work with detailed maps and pictures and video of the map, if possible for review.
Tier 2 would be the fans here reviewing the content, and checking it for any problems or errors, and to make sure no questionable content was put in.
Tier 3 would be once a map passes Tier 2 checks, a developer could go through and check the map to make sure it's up to QA standards on PGI type levels. If it's not, the map would drop back down to fan/user level to be rejected and it would have to restart the submission process all over again. If it's green lighted, the dev can choose to use it and determine if we can use the map or not.

The only problem with the concept of player created maps is that they're created by fans. In a nutshell, you've got to deal with bias, skill level of the creator, and then the risk of liability (small but still a factor). And that doesn't take into account any crude nature that some sicko might want to put in. That isn't to say that it isn't a possibility but PGI would have to spend almost as much time vetting the maps that were added as they would simply creating their own maps.

And then, not to sound like a company fanboi, you have to worry about the obvious issue of "Where does this all end?" If PGI allows us to create maps, what is to stop fans from wanting PGI to let us create mechs? The slippery slope is there.

[Tice Daurus]

Trauglodyte, on 27 March 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

The only problem with the concept of player created maps is that they're created by fans. In a nutshell, you've got to deal with bias, skill level of the creator, and then the risk of liability (small but still a factor). And that doesn't take into account any crude nature that some sicko might want to put in. That isn't to say that it isn't a possibility but PGI would have to spend almost as much time vetting the maps that were added as they would simply creating their own maps.

And then, not to sound like a company fanboi, you have to worry about the obvious issue of "Where does this all end?" If PGI allows us to create maps, what is to stop fans from wanting PGI to let us create mechs? The slippery slope is there.

Agreed, but to an extent. If we could create the maps, and have it to where PGI would look at those maps in the tier 3 section where the dev would have the final say, he could review it and if it doesn't meet the standards of PGI and the QA team, it gets rejected, and they state why it was rejected and the fan would have to redo the map again to fix whatever problems were listed.

And I do see what you are saying about mechs but we're talking just strictly maps, not mechs. Mechs would be a non-negotiable deal because Battletech and Mechwarrior have already established variants of mechs already.

[Trauglodyte]

Hey, I'm all for it. I used to create maps and units for Total Annihilation and it was a lot of fun seeing other people use what I created. I did work on EQ way back in the day and actually got some stuff changed for the better. So, as a gamer and consumer of this type stuff, I'm all for the opportunity to contribute to the success of the game beyond just playing and paying. It all comes down to how PGI feels about it and to what end are they willing to open up that door. It could be really successful OR it could turn into a Pandora's Box of BAD.

[Tigerwolf]

I am all for it but I believe PGI gave us a weak excuse not to long ago on why they wouldn't do it.

[Tice Daurus]

Tigerwolf, on 27 March 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

I am all for it but I believe PGI gave us a weak excuse not to long ago on why they wouldn't do it.

Can you post that? I had no idea PGI had already responded to this. Even if they did, I think they owe us a full explanation so we can understand why they don't approve of this (if that's indeed the case) and see if we can possibly get them to maybe change their minds.

Edited by Tice Daurus, 27 March 2013 - 09:09 AM.

[Frozen Winter]

I had a talk with my girlfriend about this yesterday and we both wound up with a headache. If a map designer puts in something bad (from virus to impolite images) and the company uses it, they are liable. We also had a licensing debate. The last thing any of us want is for PGI to get into trouble. We went around for an hour shooting back and forth and we came up with a compromise.

What if we just had access to the art assets? We could design the maps, submit them and they are scanned. If Map Mesh A doesn't match up with Mesh A on the server then the map gets thrown out. The map gets looked over by someone at PGI and added as a Training Ground map. Players can go in there, poke around and see if they like it. Then there could be a voting process. We both agree this is the weak point. That right there is a system people can game. We haven't quite figured out this part yet. However if a map gets enough votes then it is brought back up to the Devs or the lead level designer (if there is one) They look over the map and do what they will.

This way we can help work on content, there would be some way to shield PGI from bad things that could be thrown their way, and we get new maps faster. We can even get some bragging rights. I do not know how their license is setup though. I don't know if we would be pseudo subcontractors or if only members working directly for PGI are allowed to create content for this game. That is the flip side of this. Why go through that much work setting some sort of system up, then deal with going through all the entries, selecting a map, giving it a serious look through, tweaking it, then releasing it with a possible sue happy person out there when you can just create the map yourself and not have to worry about bad things? Well beyond your customers being unhappy and willing to help with the problem.

[Garth Erlam]

Quote

This would be entirely too embarrassing for the prideful lot that is PGI. A couple dudes in their spare time, for free, would create maps that drastically out class these crap offerings we've gotten so far. And by their math, these have cost $1.5 mil so far. Pathetic.

Here's a great way to get your suggestion considered. Take three (and a word) sentences and directly insult your target three times.

We are taking your ideas. Using fan-created content isn't simply a yes/no thing, there are legal issues to go through.

The game is also BARELY OVER A YEAR OLD from first line of code, so please, understand we can't snap our fingers and be a year ahead.

[Adridos]

Garth Erlam, on 27 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Here's a great way to get your suggestion considered. Take three (and a word) sentences and directly insult your target three times.

Just ignore Bad Panda, Garth...

Tice got through a lot to get an official answer and if ***** like that ruins all the effort.

[Krazyjim]

Garth Erlam, on 27 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Here's a great way to get your suggestion considered. Take three (and a word) sentences and directly insult your target three times.

We are taking your ideas. Using fan-created content isn't simply a yes/no thing, there are legal issues to go through.

The game is also BARELY OVER A YEAR OLD from first line of code, so please, understand we can't snap our fingers and be a year ahead.

Seriously, ignore this bag of garbage. If you could, could you expand further on the OP? Even a "SOON^TM"would be something!

Edited by Krazyjim, 27 March 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[Tice Daurus]

Garth Erlam, on 27 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Here's a great way to get your suggestion considered. Take three (and a word) sentences and directly insult your target three times.

We are taking your ideas. Using fan-created content isn't simply a yes/no thing, there are legal issues to go through.

The game is also BARELY OVER A YEAR OLD from first line of code, so please, understand we can't snap our fingers and be a year ahead.

Mission accomplished! A Dev has arrived! Garth, thanks for at least coming here and stopping by to read this. So just to clarify so we all get this correct...

PGI would be willing to consider this as a viable option, but because you guys are still ironing out the details and legal issues first, this is going to take some time to get worked up to say a workable idea so that the fans/users can create maps, submit them to the dev's and the dev's would consider them, correct?

One other thing on this...I know this might be asking a lot, but if this is indeed the case, could you help us nail down a timeframe of what we might be looking at in order to start this possibly happening?

Guys...progress has been achieved!

[Tice Daurus]

Krazyjim, on 27 March 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Seriously, ignore this bag of garbage. If you could, could you expand further on the OP? Even a "SOON^TM"would be something!

Jim, I swear if you p*ss Garth off to where he doesn't answer, I will hunt you down and hang you up by your toenails. Please man, don't get on the hate train here and mess this up. It took a couple days for us to work out some decent ideas to help the devs get an some solid ideas and we just NOW got Garth just to get here to answer us on this.

EDIT: Jim, just reread your post and I overreacted as I misunderstood what you said. I and a lot of other people put a lot of work into this thread. I feel like I just helped give birth to a really good idea for everyone here and I'm just highly protective right now at the moment. My bad.

Edited by Tice Daurus, 27 March 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[Henchman 24]

I hate to pee on your snowman...but do you not realize that the toolset you get to build maps with only gives enough options to make maps optimized for one gametype at a time...and are missing 80% of the items, calls, code, etc to make a map work in THIS game.

This is to suggest that even making a map for MW:LL(some awesome comm maps btw) is FAR easier than making one for MWO, even IF you had all the tools.

Someone above noted that making maps for client/server based Cryengine games is common, however this game's structure has thrown most of that out the window. I'd also like to point out that most of the maps I mentioned myself usually had more bugs than what we run in now.

I kind of like this idea, I just don't see how it can work traditionally.

Do you:

Create half a map, and then have to leave any/all changes in PGI's hands? if so...what happens when/if they bastardize your baby?

No matter how you approach this...that situation will arise. Changes will be made to it once in their hands, and the creator may not like what's happened to the map. Let's say he gets all bent out of shape and starts slamming the forums....'cause you know, that never happens here. Now what?

Honestly, it's less pain and hassle for PGI to just have a map concept contest, hold a public vote, then have PGI build the map. It's the only way I can see this working amicably.

[Krazyjim]

Tice Daurus, on 27 March 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Jim, I swear if you p*ss Garth off to where he doesn't answer, I will hunt you down and hang you up by your toenails. Please man, don't get on the hate train here and mess this up. It took a couple days for us to work out some decent ideas to help the devs get an some solid ideas and we just NOW got Garth just to get here to answer us on this.

EDIT: Jim, just reread your post and I overreacted as I misunderstood what you said. I and a lot of other people put a lot of work into this thread. I feel like I just helped give birth to a really good idea for everyone here and I'm just highly protective right now at the moment. My bad.

Man, if it wasn't for your edit I would have purposefully started derailing this...

But seriously, this is all a fantastic idea and if PGI could have this on the back-burner at least that still means progress for us! I actually want to get on this and get a couple maps made up with a couple of my friends if PGI can even give an inkling of support.

[FerretGR]

Wish I could like the OP 100 times. This is a game that would benefit greatly from fan-submitted work IMHO.

[Mister Blastman]

Garth Erlam, on 27 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

We are taking your ideas. Using fan-created content isn't simply a yes/no thing, there are legal issues to go through.

The game is also BARELY OVER A YEAR OLD from first line of code, so please, understand we can't snap our fingers and be a year ahead.

Well at least it'd be great to know ya'll are considering it. Team Fortress 2 thrived on fan-made content.

In fact, the original Team Fortress itself was a mod of Quake and it was mainly the fan-made content for it that helped it make it big. Team Fortress changed FPS gaming forever.

Get those lawyers working so we the fans can get cranking.

[Stone Profit]

Tice Daurus, on 25 March 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

snip

Your post has been driving me nuts, as there has already been an answer from Bryan Ekman regarding this topic, and it baffles me that you wouldnt already know, although not everyone follows all the news like I do. So, here is Bryans answer from ask the devs 31. I dont think you will like the answer, but here it is.

Bryan Ekman, on 08 February 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

ElliottHD -Are there any plans to open up a "create a map" system for players. Maybe as a second program all together that has a suite or map building and editing tools. Then those user created maps could be uploaded to the server. You could just have a toggle next to the launch button to "Allow user created maps." Are there plans do "exotic" or "interstellar" maps? The current maps are places that could found on earth. How about some intergalactic variety. Something truely Alien. Once we can start and run official Merc Corps, is there a plan to allow members to share c-bills and mech parts? Maybe with a central Corp bank like EVE has? Will Corps have thier own rank/level? Will that rank/level effect the contracts the Corp can take on? Or effect other bonuses possibly?
A: Due to the complexity of designing maps, including the performance and balance requirements, we do not plan support user made levels. We are working towards more alien looking worlds with the upcoming new maps. At this time we are not able to discuss the details of CW, however, we are being very careful about player-to-player transfers, as it opens up the game to farming and cheating.

[Roadbeer]

Just a bad idea. The reasons have basically been laid out in the thread already.

Just too many worms in that can.

[Chavette]

Stone Profit, on 27 March 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Your post has been driving me nuts, as there has already been an answer from Bryan Ekman regarding this topic, and it baffles me that you wouldnt already know, although not everyone follows all the news like I do. So, here is Bryans answer from ask the devs 31. I dont think you will like the answer, but here it is.

Very early, like ask the devs 1-5 early, they said they would look into it, when the time comes, so it has changed over time...

[Abrahms]

PGI wants a monopoly on stupidity and poor decisions. You cant have users generating content!

They watch how games like Call of Duty succeed, and those feed on stupid ******** masses. Im not so sure the battletech franchise can succeed on drooling bottom feeders, despite how numerous they are. This game;s nature is beyond point and shoot arcade on a 10 year old graphics engine.

They wont even take player suggestion on how to fix tripled heat generation after 12 months.... they sure wont take a map taht looks better than their own.

[Stone Profit]

Chavette, on 27 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Very early, like ask the devs 1-5 early, they said they would look into it, when the time comes, so it has changed over time...

I can only share the most recent info publish to the forums from the devs. If you feel otherwise, fine, but Im gonna believe what the head of the company said just over a month ago until such time as I have information to the contrary. Also, I dont want every tom **** and harry to be able to make maps, because they have ZERO culpability should things go wrong.