241 replies to this topic

[John Norad]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 25 March 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

there used to be this thing called a Heat Scale, the hotter a mech ran the more bad things happened. First the mech started to run slow, then it would have a hard time aiming. Hotter still the mech moved sluggishly and can't really hit anything. This mythical heat scale punished players over time for running their mechs too hot, thus providing an incentive to keep their mechs cooler...but why do we need silly TT rules here, they're just for TT...right?

Currently the heat scale moves too fast to make penalties work.
Also, the real problem is heat capacity.

But yeah, I got your point

[Escef]

I like big Alphas and I can not lie
You other warriors can't deny
When a mech walks in with no heat sinks
And big barrels in your face
You get sprung
... something, something...

...

Something...

... Ok, I got nothin'.

[Pygar]

MWHawke, on 26 March 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

6 slasers. You were going for alpha strike right? And you said it's garbage right? So, is alpha striking/cheese builds superior or not?

I would say not. Next time you see a "cheese build" buy one of that mech and try to fly it yourself... while some of them might bring your damage and kills up (your bound to be a become a better pilot just by trying out different things anyways), I doubt you will walk away from the experience saying that the tactic requires no skill...you may even come away wondering how the pilots that are good with those mechs got to be so good with them.

Myself, even at the pinnacle of the lag shield days could not fly a raven or other light like the people that really made lagshield famous....right now, I am trying to fly CTF3D Jump Snipers and make them work like I have seen them used against me, sure enough they are requiring some skill I currently don't have to be really deadly... I do not have great luck with PPC SpikeStalkers, and I hate mechs that spend almost as much time venting heat as they do doing anything else.

Currently, I am flying a dual guass Jager... and I really don't get how even the 2x AC20 Jager is a cheese build all of the sudden- both cannon "boats" were already possible before the Jager came out...and it's not like 40 or 50 alpha is exactly the high end of the damage spectrum. (Respectable, yes- but some mechs have twice that much.)

Edited by Pygar, 26 March 2013 - 03:30 PM.

[Red squirrel]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 25 March 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

there used to be this thing called a Heat Scale, the hotter a mech ran the more bad things happened. First the mech started to run slow, then it would have a hard time aiming. Hotter still the mech moved sluggishly and can't really hit anything. This mythical heat scale punished players over time for running their mechs too hot, thus providing an incentive to keep their mechs cooler...but why do we need silly TT rules here, they're just for TT...right?

There are so many flaws in MWO that could be solved by having a look into the TT rulez (MGs, ECM, heat, etc....)


PS: Is there a 3rd person view in TT?

[Jack Corban]

My personal opinion is to counter this we need a couple of things happening. I know that my view will have alot of opposition but i don't care.

First of we need hardpoint limitations. Meaning that when there is a machinegun on the stockmech you won't fit somthing bigger then a ballistic weapon with 1 critslot or in short nothing bigger then a machinegun or a AC/2. This goes for all weapons of course.
This has 2 effects, the first one is you cannot take a mech and rip out its stock weapons and replace them with overall better weapons and second you are forced to use the mech you chose to play in its intended role. Examples are: The Catapult K2 which was intendet to be a energy based directfire support mech, the Awesome with its 3 PPC's same as the K2 directfire supportmech feared because of its 3 PPC (noone fears the Awesome anymore in times of 6ERPPC Stalkers), the list goes on and on.

Mechs become obsolete without this. And in a game about mechs no mech should become obsolete EVER! PERIOD!!!

The second thing is weapons need to do less damage overall and split their Battletech value of damage over a period of 10 seconds. Why u ask ? Simple. A combat turn in Battletech is about 10 seconds long. An AC/20 can fire once per turn. This would mean in 10 seconds an AC/20 is able of doing 20 Points of damage. If you wanna keep gameplay fluent you give the AC/20 a fire rate of lets say once every 5 seconds (example) and split its actual damage per shot in half. On top of that you double its ammo per ton. This stretches the match out but keeps weapons reasonable strong in comparison. Energy weapons don't use ammo so they get their heat adjusted in such a way that they come out at the same value of heat that they would produce in one combat turn in battletech.

This prevents oneshots on many occasions as all weapons get their damage halfed, split in 3 or quarterd......

Third and last thing you do is you go back to the original Battletech armor rules. [Internal structure] x3 = max armor for section of mech. So basiclly you half the current maximum armor values. I mean lets face it they doubled the armor cuz matches were over to quickly because in this game you aim for your selfe instead of throwing 2 dice and then see what you hit. This became obsolete with the current builds that are currently metagame.

This is the only way i see to escape the current Metagame of Cheesebuilds while sticking true to canon and also keepin the combat fun and challenging. If you disagree fine, but let me ask you a few questions.

Do you like beeing oneshot ? Do you like canon kicked with feet in cheesebuilds which have only one purpose, killing the enemy in under 5 seconds? Is this still Battletech ?

If your answer to this is NO then i reckon you think again about what i just brought to the table.

best regards,

Jack Corban

[NinetyProof]

Tombstoner, on 26 March 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

firing 6 ppc's with linked fire guarantees hitting the same spot, it's face roll easy.
firing 6 ppc's one at a time and hitting the same location that is truly great gunnery.
why the community thinks alpha striking is the apex of skill is beyond me.

So ... 100% of Alpha's Land? And if you miss an Alpha what happens? vs if you miss the first in a chain?

Missing an Alpha means your done for 3-5 seconds or more ... Missing the first in a chain? you get to adjust then still get damage in.

So, which again is *better*? Hitting Alpha > Chain -> Missing First Chain > Missing half the chain > Missing Alpha.

With great risk come great reward.

Also, If your able to "pin point" on a chain, that's not YOU being good, that the other pilot being TERRIBLE for not torso twisting to spread damage.

Oh wait, they can't torso twist, cause they are chain firing trying to prove they are a gunner ... and in turn, are getting torn up by the other players.

Alpha not only allows you to pinpoint your damage, but it allows you to spread out incoming damage by torso twisting the rest of the time.

So ... again, which takes more skill? torso twisting, landing alpha, torso twisting, landing alpha ... or ... you sitting there chain firing and landing for two full cycles of chain and the entire time allowing somebody else to chain fire / alpha a single spot on you?

Oh wait ... you mean part of being a great pilot actually means piloting so that your only exposed long enough to land an alpha before your under cover again? Or your version ... being exposed long enough to chain fire?

So as soon as you elevate the argument to firing AND piloting, chain firing actually makes you a WORSE pilot.

[Teralitha]

MWHawke, on 26 March 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

6 slasers. You were going for alpha strike right? And you said it's garbage right? So, is alpha striking/cheese builds superior or not?

I had my small lasers in 2 groups, but I did fire them as an alpha strike. Whats your point? Also I didnt say it was garbage. I meant the general consensus thinks its garbage.

I said this before, I dont mind alpha strikes. The issue is heat efficiency and the ability for BIG alpha strikes to fire nonstop when such builds should be balanced by heat. But thanks to dbl heat sink... and now coolshots... its an entirely different game, for the worse.

Edited by Teralitha, 26 March 2013 - 03:36 PM.

[Zyllos]

NinetyProof, on 26 March 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Alpha Strike = Pin Point Damage = Win

This issue has nothing to do with "cheese builds" or "double heat sinks".

It has everything to do with killing a mech by creating a weakspot on a mech, then exploiting that weak spot. it's much easier to hit 1 spot on a mech, if you alpha ... but much harder if your chain firing.

Also, the issue also has to do with spreading incoming damage to multiple areas of your own armor. If you alpha, you can then swing your torso around to spread out incoming damage, versus having to keep your torso *steady* to maintain pinpoint accuracy on the weak spot.

Alpha strikes are the most efficient way to not only create/exploit weak spots on opponents as well as make your weak spot a moving targets.

This has nothing to do with double heat sinks ... it has everything to do with killing quickly, while trying not to be killed.

Alpha Strikes have built in heat penalties ... even if that were increased, it would not stop Alphas. It would have to be an extreme increase and for what reason?

The reality is that if you got rid of Alpha's and chain fire was the norm, you would end up with more core'ing going on cause more people would hold their torso's still, which makes them a easier target to find, strip, core, kill.

[Redacted] propose restrictions to stop a "perceived" problem and end up create worse issues. Just stop.

Disclaimer: When I say "chain firing" I also mean group firing in a chain fashion.

Would it not be more balanced by the fact that alpha strikes will spread damage on the target but allow the ability to torso twist and change movement/facing due to not needing to watch the target.

Chain firing allows for more pin-point firing but requires you to be constantly facing your enemy to continue the pin-point firing.

Edited by Egomane, 27 March 2013 - 02:33 PM.
Quote clean-up

[MWHawke]

Teralitha, on 26 March 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

I had my small lasers in 2 groups, but I did fire them as an alpha strike. Whats your point? Also I didnt say it was garbage. I meant the general consensus thinks its garbage.

I said this before, I dont mind alpha strikes. The issue is heat efficiency and the ability for BIG alpha strikes to fire nonstop when such builds should be balanced by heat. But thanks to dbl heat sink... and now coolshots... its an entirely different game, for the worse.

Why so defensive? I'm just trying to clarify your point.

And why do you care if the general consensus thinks its garbage? As long as you're happy with it, just play it. Why worry what other people think?

[Pygar]

Zyllos, on 26 March 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Would it not be more balanced by the fact that alpha strikes will spread damage on the target but allow the ability to torso twist and change movement/facing due to not needing to watch the target.

Things aren't always fair, Alpha is better than DPS in this game- get over it, move on with life, plskthxbai.

[Zyllos]

Pygar, on 26 March 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Things aren't always fair, Alpha is better than DPS in this game- get over it, move on with life, plskthxbai.

Why concede that "it's unbalanced, get over it" when we have control over it?

[Jack Corban]

its nice how everybody ignores my post completly.

[Pygar]

Zyllos, on 26 March 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Why concede that "it's unbalanced, get over it" when we have control over it?

Because you don't have control over it....and frankly, it's a dumb argument- the way to win is to do as much damage as possible while limiting your opponents ability to deal damage back...one of the best ways to limit your enemies ability to do damage is to get rid of them as quickly as possible, and so Alpha Damage is better than DPS and especially focused fire on a called target is waaay better than "DPS".

So, TLDR: DPS doesn't "work" in MWO because of teamwork. This thread has reached 11 pages, and thats about 10 pages too many for the subject matter given-The End.

Edited by Pygar, 26 March 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[Marj]

Pygar, on 26 March 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Because you don't have control over it....and frankly, it's a dumb argument- the way to win is to do as much damage as possible while limiting your opponents ability to deal damage back...one of the best ways to limit your enemies ability to do damage is to get rid of them as quickly as possible, and so Alpha Damage is better than DPS and especially focused fire on a called target is waaay better than "DPS".

So, TLDR: DPS doesn't "work" in MWO because of teamwork. This thread has reached 11 pages, and thats about 10 pages too many for the subject matter given-The End.

Except that the OP has nothing against using alpha's and only supports chain firing when there's a good reason to do it like knock.... At least half the people in this thread don't understand what the OP is talking about.

Do yourselves a favour. If you think someone is saying something stupid ask them to clarify what they mean. It might be you that's misunderstood what is being said.

[Teralitha]

Jack Corban, on 26 March 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

its nice how everybody ignores my post completly.

We are not the ones you need to convince.

[jakucha]

Zyllos, on 26 March 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Would it not be more balanced by the fact that alpha strikes will spread damage on the target but allow the ability to torso twist and change movement/facing due to not needing to watch the target.

Chain firing allows for more pin-point firing but requires you to be constantly facing your enemy to continue the pin-point firing.

That's what I've been noticing. A lot of the time an alpha-ing opponent will be laying into me and strip lots of my armor, but before he can kill me I've been chain-firing accurately against his cockpit and can kill him before he gets me. Not always the case but I've been having good luck with it lately.

[jeffsw6]

Mokey Mot, on 25 March 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

I'm suddenly interested with the idea of dropping a little firepower for a couple of extra DHS, but I think that's taking it too far. Your post has made me consider dropping my SRM6s to 4s, but not dropping that firepower completely.

It's a question of burst vs sustained damage. If you are in a mech and situation that can take advantage of cover (a light, or a medium/heavy in city/terrain) then the SRMs are probably going to be better for you. In an Assault, I think SRMs are pretty worthless right now. Assaults are too slow and cumbersome to use cover in a melee, so you might as well have more heat bleed-off so you can keep firing lasers and guns. $0.02.

ryoma, on 25 March 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

Actually some guy in Game balance made a nice suggestion!

it basically amounted to "reduce max heat capacity while increasing heat dissipation"

That way it's easier to overheat if you have a large alpha.

http://mwomercs.com/...reates-choices/

I don't agree with this suggestion. However, I think a heat sink should explode, and your mech take some damage (a little) every time you overheat. Keep on doing it, and you'll only have engine heat sinks left, which will be exploding .. in your engine.

wuselfuzz, on 26 March 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

BV matchmaking please.

It's not just the DHS, some drops are seriously unbalanced (WTF @ the enemy having 4 Atlas, two of them D-DC and two ECM Ravens, and our team only having my CDA-3M for ECM with the heaviest mechs being two Stalkers, a Cataphract and a Jagermech?).

Bad matchmaking is what people really need to be asking the devs to fix.

Every time I play my Atlas, I seem to end up on a team with at least 2 other Atlas, if not more! Is it doing this on purpose?! It seems like it, because when I play my Dragon, I often am on teams with no assaults, or maybe 1 or 2 STK/AWS.

FunkyFritter, on 26 March 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

The only issue I see is that some of the sustained damage weapons like mgs are in need of some buffs.

Yes, and the Gauss Rifle ammo needs to be nerfed. Make it 2 shots/ton and people won't use them carelessly anymore; they will either be good at sniping and take careful shots, or they will QQ and un-equip it.

MustrumRidcully, on 26 March 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

Fixing those Gauss Cats with heat capacity or heat limitations will probably not work, but it's really the only weapon that doesn't need to care about heat. That could be mitigated if the Gauss Rifle had a lower damage per shot and a higher rate of fire to compensate. Imagine firing the Gauss every 2 seconds for 8 damage. A bit more DPS then now, but much lower alpha capability then now.

I think the sudden popularity of sniping is because there are a lot of wussie players who don't know how to brawl, so when their LRMs and streaks got nerfed, they went looking for a new stand-off weapon where they can kill a few enemies without ever fighting anyone. So now you're never in a game without at least a couple PPC/Gauss snipers.

That desert map is ridiculous. It seems designed to give teams with a lot of snipers an advantage that is impossible to counter.

MustrumRidcully, on 26 March 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

The fact that we see boats and they are thriving indicates that mix of weapon systems is not actually healthy.

There isn't a healthy mix of ballastic weapons. A new chassis-type was just introduced that has a lot of emphasis on ballastics. LRMs and SRMs got nerfed. A new map was put in that has a lot of good places from which to snipe.

All these things happened at once. That is why Gauss/PPC boats are popular now.

Nerf Gauss ammo. I can't say it enough. It should not be a weapon for spraying during a melee or taking careless shots at 1400m, yet you can use it that way because you can carry a lot of ammunition.

I don't think it does too much dmg/shot. I think the ammo is inappropriate.

Vassago Rain, on 26 March 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

It's not balanced at all currently, and short-ranged combat has no place on the battlefield with the SRM damage reduction. You stomp across the field through coolant powered PPC stalkers...to get blown apart by jenners with massed medium lasers? Okay.

I've been doing nothing but short-ranged combat since the missile nerf. I'm having more fun than ever. Boy, does it make me mad when I get killed by Gauss rifle shots though.

QQ

[Aquillon]

Quote

'The best way to make Cbills is with damage, kills, and assists. The best way to get those is to use big punching ballistic weapons'

While this is true to a degree, if you have skill and good teamwork, you can also achieve Cbills with 'puny pokey lasers' - bigger isnt always better.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

I think I asked this several pages ago; but if the top end of the heat scale is 30, and the way heat sinks work here is to dissipate after the heat is made, why dont 6 ppc stalkers immediately explode when they alpha strike?
Ive run one on single heat sinks an it doesnt blow up creating 60 (double the max) in one shot. It usually shuts down (and not for as long as I would think it would)

[Ialti]

Zen Hachetaki, on 26 March 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

For those wondering: "Cheese Build" refers to anything at any given point in time is taking advantage of known (sometimes unknown) flaws in the game. These change over time as PGI Nerfs them. They used to be ML/SL/SSRM Jenners which were "nerfed" by reduction of the lag shield and introduction of ECM. Then LRM online when they made mistakes with damage and grouping and angle etc. Now it is 3Ls and 2Ds (mostly 3Ls) whose hit detection is messed up, using Streaks and ECM combo. I can respect those mechs if they don't choose the cheese build of streaks in Pug play (8 v 8 everything goes), otherwise I simply know they are the most dangerous mechs on the map (due to IMBA).

Perhaps a better determination of a "cheese build" is taking advantage of a situation, not making "the best build" but gaming the system itself. You can always tell a cheese build when half the population instantly starts to use one right after patches or updates... Then it is time to do some reading on the forums and see what is up!

Anyway, yes I get people want to win, so do I, but there are ways to go about it "honorably?". Next week there will be a new cheese, and the following month and so on. My question is why group up/pug in these cheese builds? Is it really satisfying? I get more satisfaction killing them than anything else - especially if I am in a "sub par" mech (yes I drive Dragons and Spiders now).

At the end of it all - please don't interpret this as rage or QQ, I know I can go out and buy one too, it is a fair playing field in that regard. I choose not to because I don't consider it "sporting". I like to solo drop as I have kids and don't always have time to plunk down and group up etc. I also just like quiet goof off time so I struggle to understand these guys who game the system - against Pugs? Is winning an online game at all/any costs satisfying? I assume it must be for many people judging by the numbers of 3Ls w/ ECM & SSRM I see out there.

I think there are a lot of folks out there who get what I am talking about and equally as many who don't - I am asking "Why?' a lot because I simply do not understand the motivation. A good build is entirely different than a gibbing the system build. This is a game where having fun should be the main point - isn't it? This isn't feeding your family, or life or death, or any real life situation where using everything and anything to your advantage is necessary. Then again I do not understand internet trolls either so I cannot claim to understand everyone's motivations in life...

Regarding boating (I have much less concern about that) but a definition would be having exclusively selected a single weapon type (not just range) and then proceed to alpha with them all to hit the same location simultaneously. There are advantages and disadvantages here so I don't really quarrel with it but I can see where some folks might find issue with it. Some chassis are simply built for it (Jenner comes stock with 4 ML for instance), it is an all or nothing approach which comes with it's risks.

I have some issue with builds like 6 PPC stalkers only due to the alpha heat seems to really push the borders of the game rules. Nothing overheats like that sucker does and one could argue should (and I know "should" is a dirty word) do more than just shut the mech down. That being said, it is within the current rules and as such I can buy it too. There are no blatant abuses of it and it is VERY weak if you face hug it or circle it fast enough so I do not see it as "cheese".

Anyway, hope this made sense and was worth reading/discussing to someone.

Cheese to me means basically resting on laurels not your own. I'm a little weird about it, but when I see a ton of people running in one mech I want to go build a different one that works just as well and fight them in it. To me, the people who look at a really popular build like the current 3L streak/laser contraption and say "Oooh! I want to be the one in that thing!" are cheese.

That said, sometimes it's fun to be the 3L pilot. And I can't really hold it against 'em for deciding that they prefer an easy-to-pilot mech over something that demands a little more practice; I'll even saddle up a cheese-build every now and then, myself.

Now, forming a four-man out of 3L's and pug-stomping--I find that unsportsmanlike. It still doesn't bother me (it's a game...), but I can sympathize a little more with the complainers.

Sync-dropping an eight man into PUGs with nothing but Raven 3L's, followed by taunting the folks on the other team? Ok, maybe I'll be a little irritated. Might even wish I could report them for it. Still, unless they're denying other gamers the chance to experience the game as it is 'normally' (whatever that means) played, I don't think cheese is really complain-worthy.