132 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

DanNashe, on 26 March 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

Those heat sinks are doubles, right? :-)

According to the original post it does, but frankly I'm confused. Why did he add 2 more heatsinks on top of that when 10 DHS gives you more cooling than this build would ever need.

Personally, I would drop the two extra heat sinks, upgrade the engine, and see how that feels.

Edited by Jman5, 26 March 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[WardenWolf]

Garth Erlam, on 26 March 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Given the replies, it doesn't seem too popular an idea (and it's a lot of work to gather replies, make a list, and have people vote.) We'll see though.

If that is more work than necessary, perhaps just have a place where each person on the forums can submit *one* mech variant / specs they would suggest as a good trial build, and then you Devs can select ones to use as you see fit (avoid the whole voting thing and the work associated with it). By limiting the suggestions to one per user (maybe per period of time) you could also keep from being flooded by too many suggestions.

Another option, which has been floated around before, is to keep trial mechs more isolate from the better players / customized mechs. Elo helps with that, certainly, but having a separate queue for people who are 1] new to the game (under X number of games played), 2] using a trial mech, and 3] not in a pre-made group would further protect such players from being stomped by superior mech designs. Maybe there aren't enough such players online all the time, though, and it would just goof up matchmaking?

[Bluecricket]

Congrats Phorashi. I've got a garage full of ~18 mechs and I even want to try this build. It seems fun, elegant, and simple--the 300XL is a risk factor for newbie players, but I don't think that's going to be a huge problem given that the Dragon is rarely targeted on its sides (although a lot of people are going to know it's running an XL).

As for PGI themselves, I really applaud you guys for running this kind of contest. I'm sure it was a logistical nightmare, but it's really important to engage and involve your community like this. Well done, and I really hope that the negative comments don't dissuade you from attempting to run another contest like this in the future. It's seriously a great idea.

[Deathlike]

WardenWolf, on 26 March 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

If that is more work than necessary, perhaps just have a place where each person on the forums can submit *one* mech variant / specs they would suggest as a good trial build, and then you Devs can select ones to use as you see fit (avoid the whole voting thing and the work associated with it). By limiting the suggestions to one per user (maybe per period of time) you could also keep from being flooded by too many suggestions.

TBH, we should be using the online MWO Mechlab (which is my preference), or the Mechromancer as the formal requirement. This would make submission 10x easier than the fraken-post system.

My other disappointment with this system is that... I don't see why all the builds posted here (particularly the runner up) isn't added to a "rotation" of "community trial mechs" and buyable variant option. This is easy MC for the uninitiated plus people would complain less about the newbie experience. Buying a new cfg with c-bills would be costly, but more worthwhile than the current stock mechs that we have access to. Buying mechs that have "better value" cannot be underestimated.

WardenWolf, on 26 March 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

Another option, which has been floated around before, is to keep trial mechs more isolate from the better players / customized mechs. Elo helps with that, certainly, but having a separate queue for people who are 1] new to the game (under X number of games played), 2] using a trial mech, and 3] not in a pre-made group would further protect such players from being stomped by superior mech designs. Maybe there aren't enough such players online all the time, though, and it would just goof up matchmaking?

I'm gonna hazard a guess that there isn't enough newbies to go around.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 March 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[Dan Nashe]

Have one developer spend 2 hours tweaking stock mechs to be better. Endo steel, dhs, full armor. Give us 4 options in each weight category (same mech or different mechs, does not matter). Choosing user builds is cool and all, but I understand that just collating results is a huge timesink. Also, I thought a lot of the finalists were odd . . . and arbitrary. that's a lot of the complaints I am seeing).

Take say the K2 for example. Stock weapons, dhs. Maybe endo for more dhs. Infinitely improved new player experience, but a lot of room for a new player to say "I want to buy this and tweak it". Take stock dragon. Do the same, make it a harder hitting ac 5 or 10.

They don't have to be competition builds, and odd quirks like too much weapon variety is fine. In fact being a little sub optoimal is good so they buy their own, but only a Little. No ac 2s, dhs , no small laser, max armor, are the only rules.

But I am looking forward to trying this dragon. So good job, even if I voted for jump jets :-)

[CSLaoch]

Will definitely take a couple rounds to give this a try, might make me get a dragon too (which I haven't played since closed beta).

I enjoyed looking at submissions, and think this contest is a great idea, would like to see more of them. Just realize that regardless of the outcomes, somebody's gonna complain about the stupidest things.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

What I don't understand is why people are complaining that what amounts to yet another terrible stock mech loadout lost.

[Jman5]

Bluecricket, on 26 March 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Congrats Phorashi. I've got a garage full of ~18 mechs and I even want to try this build. It seems fun, elegant, and simple

I have to agree that there is some real elegance to this build that may be lost on people who haven't built it. It used 4 upgrades: Endo, DHS, XL, and FF which makes it fill up every single slot on the mech. No tonnage left over, and no slots left over.

The only thing that would have made it even cleaner would be if he could have figured out a way to fill out the AMS and missile hardpoints.

Edited by Jman5, 26 March 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[Deathlike]

DanNashe, on 26 March 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Have one developer spend 2 hours tweaking stock mechs to be better. Endo steel, dhs, full armor. Give us 4 options in each weight category (same mech or different mechs, does not matter). Choosing user builds is cool and all, but I understand that just collating results is a huge timesink. Also, I thought a lot of the finalists were odd . . . and arbitrary. that's a lot of the complaints I am seeing).

The stock builds are canon, and probably wouldn't get changed. They are better for being "the cheaper option" if community builds are being sold in tandem.

[fil5000]

Phorashi, on 26 March 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Hooray! I won! I'm the best robot builder ever! Thanks to everyone that voted for me especially the Kerensky's and my clutch mates from the far country. Now for some celebratory suet!

SQUAWK!!!

Please remember, fellow MWO players, if you see Phorashi in game and he is NOT in his winning design while it is in the trial rotation, please screenshot it and PM myself or any of the rest of the Word of Lowtax. Because he made a campaign promise that he WILL be held to to drive nothing else.

[Skyscream Sapphire]

Thank you Garth and PGI for doing this! I hope it is the start of a revised trial system, assuming we do not want to completely rebalance the game around making table top stock variants viable. As others have mentioned, we do not want horrible starter mechs to turn off new players who may not be familiar with the mechwarrior franchise!


As for the winning mech build, while this is orders of magnitude better than a crappy trial mech, I still don't support Dragon builds that run such slow engines. This build could essentially be done better in any other Heavy chassis. It does make use of the uniqueness of the Dragon's fully articulated arms, but it also puts the weapons at risk by doing so. They'd be better off protected in a K2's torsos or with a Cataphract's higher armor. This build fails to take advantage of the true strength of the Dragon: the high speed for a Heavy. I would have rather seen Gauss and 4XML with a 350XL if it had to be a Gauss Dragon.




EDIT: Reorganized to put the positive point first, since it was more important than the chassis criticism.

Edited by Skyscream Sapphire, 26 March 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Now I know a lot of people wanted the 4X, I thought it was decent but I love that 5N more.

But I have to ask...
PGI why can't you take them both into the heavy lineup, just not in the same month?
Why throw away a design that was a close second? Why don't we take the 2 best designs instead of just the one?

[WVAnonymous]

I officially suggest PGI create an expanded version of this contest.

Place the 10-12 selected builds in their own tab of the mech lab. Interested parties (possibly only non-cadet users) can drop in the potential build of the month. At the end of the month, PGI tallies the W/L record for all the builds and declares the best one a winner. That one becomes a standard trial mech the next month. It would add interest and really flex out where the rubber meets the road (or the mech feet meet the dirt).

[Devil Fox]

So another easy to kill Trial mech?!... The drawback of the dragons alongside their bulbous CT and XL Engine requirements, is that their arm's are pretty bulky and act as shields... That Guass Rifle is going to blow up quite abit under single alpha shots, follow that up by a torso shot and you might find it on the ground twitching.

Well Trial mech selections so far give an easy to kill mech or two a month as it is...

[n0e]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 26 March 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

But I have to ask...
PGI why can't you take them both into the heavy lineup, just not in the same month?
Why throw away a design that was a close second? Why don't we take the 2 best designs instead of just the one?

I fully support this.

[Mackman]

Garth Erlam, on 26 March 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Given the replies, it doesn't seem too popular an idea (and it's a lot of work to gather replies, make a list, and have people vote.) We'll see though.

The thing is that it's not going to be super important to the majority of people who no longer use trial mechs. BUT it has the potential to drastically--and I mean drastically--improve the new-player experience. So even though you might not get a whole lot of replies, i'd think it's still definitely worth doing.

[SixstringSamurai]

Tank Boy Ken, on 26 March 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

Wow, you have no clue how much damage a Gauss Explosion does. Thanks for not supporting the best build.

Well considering my 3D with arm mounted Gauss and an XL300 has been taken out just by losing the arm I would assume its possible here too. In case you didn't know arms with exploding items like ammo getting removed from the mech will crit.

[Ken Fury]

SixStringSamurai, on 26 March 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Well considering my 3D with arm mounted Gauss and an XL300 has been taken out just by losing the arm I would assume its possible here too. In case you didn't know arms with exploding items like ammo getting removed from the mech will crit.

In practice the Gauss Rifle will explode on the first hit to the internal structure in the Right Arm, which will indeed rip off the Right Arm, and a tiny bit of damage might transfer in the right torso. But not enough to kill the XL engine.

I mastered the Dragons in Closed Beta (yes all of them) and own them again. I never died to an XL death due to a Gauss Explosion, IF the Gauss was arm mounted.

[Dan Nashe]

Deathlike, on 26 March 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

The stock builds are canon, and probably wouldn't get changed. They are better for being "the cheaper option" if community builds are being sold in tandem.

Oh I just meant for use as trial mechs. I prefer paying 3025 prices when I buy the mech and I'm not suggesting that purchased mechs shouldn't start canon, I'm just going to strip it.:-)
It's just that the canon 3025 builds are so bad and a new player has enough issues. And you can keep a lot of the flavor with small tweaks. E.g. take a 3025 griffin, give it endo steel dhs an er ppc and full armor it will still play uniquely, but wouldn't get roflstomped. (Or make a treb like this. )

I also think the competition would be judged less harshly if trial mechs weren't so awful. We as players have a lot invested in this competition because we're thinking "if I ask a friend to try the game, the contest winner is my friend's only chance of having one good choice, and that's why I'm messily combining topics in my competition thread. Which boils down to:

1. Competition was great. But the selection criteria for the finalists was far too opaque- what was pgi's criteria for a finalist? Hat? Office poll of "fun"? Designed to do certain things for new players? To really showcase a particular mech's strengths?

2. If you can't run these monthly (we need other things more desperately from developer time), an alternative of just giving the community 10 options to vote on would still be cool.

3. The contest gets heated complaints because for many of us it is a proxy for a critical problem with the new llayer experience. That's why a lot of feedback is "awesome but new players need X." I think the fun factor would be higher ("ha! That's just a neat quirky build. That will be fun to try.!") If the back of my mind wasn't thinking "but this is the only real option for new players? Eww!"

(My vote was for the dragon when I saw my favorite was polling far behind, and this dragon is I think a good new player design, but if some of the others had won... I would have complained because I am so focused on this as the one hope for new players).

Edited by DanNashe, 26 March 2013 - 01:01 PM.

[SixstringSamurai]

Tank Boy Ken, on 26 March 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

In practice the Gauss Rifle will explode on the first hit to the internal structure in the Right Arm, which will indeed rip off the Right Arm, and a tiny bit of damage might transfer in the right torso. But not enough to kill the XL engine.

I mastered the Dragons in Closed Beta (yes all of them) and own them again. I never died to an XL death due to a Gauss Explosion, IF the Gauss was arm mounted.

In closed beta they didnt explode and more then 10 HP. The changes happened in open.