152 replies to this topic

[Tennex]

Thirdstar, on 27 March 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

I saw this graphic posted in an old thread and thought it seemed like a good idea. So there's a level system for the casual players and this system for serious play? Sounds like a good way to handle it.

yeah it'd be nice here. i could see a exp leveling system as the community warfare part. leveling through ranks in a house etc. and then the competitive league system as solaris

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

valkyrie, on 26 March 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

• An actual, scripted tutorial. While I understood most of WoT's mechanics because I'm not stupid and pick up on things pretty quickly, the tutorial still gave me a few pointers I otherwise would've missed, like using shift for first person zoom, and hiding from enemy LOS entirely by hiding in bushes (I had no idea you actually didn't RENDER when you were hidden. In comparison, MWO is a far, FAR more complex game, and frankly, YouTube videos are not going to cut it. When you have the incredible array of things you're asked to understand and manage in MWO (spotting, radar, heat management, commander view, ECM, lock-ons, weapon groupings, location-based damage...the list goes on), you HAVE to walk people through it. Learning that your torso and legs move independently of one another is of minimal concern in comparison. Otherwise, they'll end up overwhelmed and leave before they spend a single cent.
  
• Revise the ENTIRE Trial 'Mech system. I've since realize that the reason I'm so hopelessly outclassed at all times in WoT is because I'm not putting the time into each tank to upgrade it and make it viable because I'm busy tech rushing right to the tank I want. MWO doesn't have this issue since you just buy everything outright, but the Trial 'Mechs present a serious issue. They're very, very rarely competitive in the metagame at all - the Hunchback -4SP and Catapult -K2 having thus far been the sole exceptions. Chances are it would be far better to fully explain how the game and 'MechLab work, have the player play some in 'Mechs that are custom designed to help new players learn the system rather than designed for TT, then give them a free 'Mech of their own to continue tweaking and learning the ropes on - ideally a Hunchback of their choice, since it can easily fill almost any role sans "ECM *******." This way, they'll have an opportunity to learn different playstyles and have something that could actually be rebuilt to stay competitive, as well as start them on the right foot towards whatever ride they eventually decide they really want. Of course, if they like the game enough to want to buy a 'Mech outright with MC, that's fine too - perhaps give them a one-time "new player discount" on a stock (read: non-Hero) 'Mech option instead of the free Hunchback. However, to get them to stay long enough to spend money, they have to actually like the game first, which will be greatly helped by the aforementioned tutorial far more than something like 3PV.
  
• Don't throw them to the sharks right off the bat. While I haven't played it myself, I understand that League of Legends doesn't actually allow you to play ranked games until you've completed a certain number of games. MWO could benefit from this too, pooling new players under a certain game number together, perhaps along with low ELO players. The important part is to keep them from being tossed in against Cataphract jump snipers and PPC boating Stalkers right off the bat. Nothing kills fun faster than a sense of hopelessness. Frankly, if I hadn't been penned in with the rookies in Tier 1 of World of Tanks, I would've dumped it a long time ago. Nobody likes dying in a few hits to experienced players, especially in games where you're not only just learning the ropes, but it takes forever to actually kill someone in comparison to most modern games.

tl;dr read the whole thing, don't be lazy. MWO, while less grindy than some of it's competitors, is still far from new player friendly. Third person view is ultimately putting a band-aid on a bullet hole - the new player experience needs significant reworking if PGI ever hopes to attract more than the most dedicated players.




If you have similar experiences with other F2P games, I'd love to hear them and how MWO could learn from the successes and mistakes of others.

I'm used to cringing whenever a Kong member post, but this was very well written and insightful. Thank you.

Edited by Daisu Saikoro, 27 March 2013 - 01:55 AM.

[deadeye mcduck]

World of Tanks has a horrible grind, to get beyond Tier 8 you really need to convert free xp using buy buying gold. Also to make any profit at Tier 8+ you need a premium account, as they barely make much profit unless your really, really lucky due to the random income you receive.

As for the tutorial, its very basic and only arrived in the last patch, despite the game is almost TWO years old. It does not teach you how to spot enemy/aim for weak spots/use the mini map, which are key to doing well in a battle.

The matchmaking system is dodgy to say the least, its just puts you in battles with tanks of similar tier, up to 2 teirs maximum, unless your artillery or a T4 light, when your in battles 4 tiers higher. The community has repeatedly asked for a skill based MM, but devs flatly refues to do so, saying "Its not needed"

So if OP wants this in MWO, he can have it, but expect the game to be far more frustrating. MWO as it is, is more enjoyable for me and less frustrating, but I do think some basic tutorial is needed to show newer players how to control their mechs.

[MrDrunkenMaster]

You are playing world of tanks wrong. What you are supposed to do is buy a gold tank straight away, then gold ammo, then use the exp you win in that spend more gold to convert it to GXP and use that to level your regular tank up. Any other way of playing the game is a horrible, completely unfair grind. I think WOT is popular due to the concept, not the implementation, WOT is proper pay to win and the spotting system is outright ********. MWO should crush these guys.

[deadeye mcduck]

Wargaming are just out to make money, and the whole of World of Tanks is geared towards you spending money by making long horrible grinds for tanks/equipment, so you can get them quicker.

[Thirdstar]

MrDrunkenMaster, on 27 March 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

MWO should crush these guys.

Ahahahahahahahahaha. No.

deadeye mcduck, on 27 March 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

Wargaming are just out to make money, and the whole of World of Tanks is geared towards you spending money by making long horrible grinds for tanks/equipment, so you can get them quicker.

I'm not going to deny that WoT has a grind. However, the grind is very forgiving in the low to mid tiers. And that's where I've pretty much had the majority of my 'fun'.

I have more time spent in my Hetzer than in my higher tier tanks.

Crap, I'm just adding to the offtopiciness. Sorry.

WoT is just an example people, look past that to what the OP has actually suggested.

Edited by Thirdstar, 27 March 2013 - 02:09 AM.

[charov]

Note: I played WoT for a year. This is my experience. I won't write about the game, I agree with the OP and his suggestions on that point. These are some considerations on the whole "package" (community, game, devs).

My Efficiency Rating was acceptable (rated as a Great Player with WN6 1599, 1497 ER, username 76red_devil, EU server) but I quitted from that lair of whiners, arrogant, rude people. Why? Because insults were the most common thing written in chat. No matter if you were the best player or the last.
In Test Server russian players sistematically kills you only because you come from another region (EU server for me). Embarassing.
Devs were too susceptible to whiners: you could have spent tons of hours grinding up that tier X you liked just only too see it nerfed to death in the following patch. F*** them! Grinding was really tiring and annoying, much more tiring and annoying that in MWO.

Here I have found a far better community, expecially during the closed β, very communicative devs that listen many suggestions and are not so stingy (do you know how camos work in wot?). I really like this game and the community, so much that I bought 25000MC more, after my Founder pack. Can't wait to see Clans and the Community Warfare!

[Karl Streiger]

have to defend WoT...that this day will ever come...have defended MWO in the WoT forums.

There is no need for you to rush into higher tiers...I was completely satisfied with my Hetzer...killing everything with high probability unto Tier 6...Tier 7 was much more difficult but still possible...only IS and some artillery guns were missing.

The grind was brutal starting at Tier 4 to get to Tier 5 or even towards Tier 6 or 7.
To play WoT competive you need gold rounds and premium but on the other hand i read a post where some one told that he hardly spend any money because through ClanWars he got enough gold to maintain his tanks and premium time.

Last game mode is still complete missing in MWO.
It is still a no go that new players in stock mechs have to drop with experienced players - that may field a Cheesebuild.
Its not a problem with the trainings videos - when i started to play or when I ended to play WoT there wasn't anything else but some tutorial videos.

Thirdstar, on 27 March 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

I have more time spent in my Hetzer than in my higher tier tanks.

Did you have the fast firing ultra autocannon or the big bore AC 20?
When i stoped playing i scored 203 kills in that small thing.
The last 103 kills i did in 30 battles out of 214?

Edited by Karl Streiger, 27 March 2013 - 02:14 AM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

I agree with OP and your reason to left WoT is same as mine and same for Hawken and Planetside.Too much grind without visible progress.
On other hand you do not need to buy ANYTHING in those games(maybe exception of premium acc in WoT to feed higher tier tanks).
In MWO you have to buy mechbays to be able to play competitively and bring a mech which your team needs.

[Thirdstar]

Karl Streiger, on 27 March 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

Did you have the fast firing ultra autocannon or the big bore AC 20?
When i stoped playing i scored 203 kills in that small thing.
The last 103 kills i did in 30 battles out of 214?

Ran the 'ultra' because my ping (I play on the NA server) means that I do often miss even perfect shots. I'm loathe to play on the Oceanic server because of the terrible stories I've heard about it.



Pic is for OP.

Edited by Thirdstar, 27 March 2013 - 02:21 AM.

[MrDrunkenMaster]

I

Thirdstar, on 27 March 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

Ahahahahahahahahaha. No.



I'm not going to deny that WoT has a grind. However, the grind is very forgiving in the low to mid tiers. And that's where I've pretty much had the majority of my 'fun'.

I have more time spent in my Hetzer than in my higher tier tanks.

Crap, I'm just adding to the offtopiciness. Sorry.

WoT is just an example people, look past that to what the OP has actually suggested.

MWO should crush WOT when it gets going. Remember wargaming took 4 years to get their version of community warfare out. Look at the design choices that mean MWO is better : No P2W, no dumb as rocks spotting system that slowly updates server side, no "cone of fire" random numbers shooting, much less grind, no random bouncing of shots off armour, no stupid artillery that turns every match into a turtle, no tech tree restricting access to heavy units, MWO has genuine weapons variety rather than everything being a type of cannon, and the developers are not Russians with a massive chip on their shoulders who believe one tech tree should be superior to all others.

[Moromillas]

This, a thousand times over.

The new player experience is daunting at best. We need more to make it interesting for new players, to get them acclimated to the game, to get them past the initial "what the hell do I do." A proper in-game tutorial complete with hands on training and instruction is the way to go, I have no idea how to improve the trial system though.

I can see that Piranha are trying to alleviate this (with matchmaking that still needs improvement), but we do need more in my opinion.

Edited by Moromillas, 27 March 2013 - 02:37 AM.

[Side Step]

The evil thing about WoT is that you are always facing higher tier tanks than you, so you naturally assume that you need to get to the next tier to have an easier time. Little do you know just how incredible long the road ahead of you are, and once you've started you end up investing so much time and/or money in that grind that you almost have to continue to make that investment worth it.

Sure, WoT can be fun, but when you find the odds stacked against you, it's frustrating. In summary, WoT is not meant to be a fair game in any way.

Comparatively, in MWO I was positively surprised that I could buy a mech just like the veterans were running around with already after getting my cadet money. There's still a slight grind with upgrades, mech/pilot skills, etc., but it's not nearly as bad as playing a tier 4 light vs tier 9 heavy in WoT (the most extreme example).


Agreed about the tutorial. Would be a good addition. I'm sure it's coming. It's not like WoT had a tutorial in beta or even at launch day.

[OpCentar]

Karl Streiger, on 27 March 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

have to defend WoT...that this day will ever come...have defended MWO in the WoT forums.

There is no need for you to rush into higher tiers...I was completely satisfied with my Hetzer...killing everything with high probability unto Tier 6...Tier 7 was much more difficult but still possible...only IS and some artillery guns were missing.

The grind was brutal starting at Tier 4 to get to Tier 5 or even towards Tier 6 or 7.
To play WoT competive you need gold rounds and premium but on the other hand i read a post where some one told that he hardly spend any money because through ClanWars he got enough gold to maintain his tanks and premium time.

...

Really? no problem with tier 6 in your Hetzer? not likely unless you shoot premium ammo with the derp howitzer.

CW are broken, it's just gold farming. Gold ammo is the ultimate balance breaker, in low tiers derp howitzers have the ability to oneshot many enemy tanks in high tiers armor is worhless due to 300+mm pen gold rounds.


The one thing which I like from WoT is the large amount of funcups, tournaments and challenges from which anyone can earn gold - their equivalent of MC.

[I am]

A heaping, steaming, pile of mis-information in here.

[Soy]

valkyrie, on 26 March 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

Game after game, my PzKpfw 38(t) would be dropped against Churchills, StuG IIIs, PzKpfw IVs, M3 Lees, M4 Shermans, etc.,all of which were clearly labeled as one or two tiers above my tank's tech level. I'd frequently move along the borders of the map, trying to avoid contact simply because any shots I -did- hit with would frequently bounce off. The enemy, on the other hand, could fire one shot at my front armor and turn my light tank into a piñata. Game after game I'd lose to swift, blinding death from nowhere, then see in spectator mode that many of these much heavier tanks were frequently not only packing way more firepower than I was, but moving as fast if not faster and with better maneuverability to boot.

Hahahahahahaha this sounds like one hell of a bad game.

[GalaxyBluestar]

read as far as girls und panzer and got lost in a sea of LMAO, good but ridiculous fun. errrrrm anyways back to the subject matter.

as vasg said the forums have been ringing fairly consistaintly about the lack of tutorials, we only just recently got testing grounds which is about 20% of what new players need. you can play with controls and avoid been thrown in with sharks {which elo has failed to do with it's accumalitive team elo instead of all players around the same base number elo which is what we really wanted} however nobody looks up youtube tutes before having a go at a F2P. it's human nature that should've been catered for ages ago to have a lesson mode in the game before OB and months later we still haven't got it.

then there's the stock/trial mechs which are up against the desire to make this game more customise-centric thus throwing the baby stock mechs out with the bathwater. if engine torso twist speeds and heat mechanics favour customise engine choices over the stocks, and trials being thrown against not only greater ammo and heat synched mechs but also against top mech tree teir orientated mechs, not even good pilots can get them to work often enough to put a smile on your face let alone a new comer who's expectations are constantly dashed by being killed in under a minute, the game will die.

yep we've been here countless of times saying how stocks and newbies are smashed into the ground even with cadet bonuses and elo and the contemplation of 3rd person, it's all just baby bandaids for core problems which i'm slowly becoming convinced pgi doesn't know how to handle and wouldn't want to try fixing anyways because it's too intergrated and too complex to risk crybaby's whiplashing the forums. i mean the lurms is a case in point, they were fine, then the last two patches did something weird to their splash allocation damage and had to be fixed so it's temporarily pulled for fixing and a bunch of people cry the game is dead without a weapon overcoming others, my win buttons gone etc etc. the devs are too little and not smart enough to take on the massive concept that is mechwarrior and we the beta testers or freeloading players are too demanding and impatient to give pgi leeway to test and analise in order to build the game. so saddly we've got another year to get through before such problems might be considered to be addressed. just keep making threads how people turn away from this game for these same reasons and i'm sure the lack of numbers and money may make then pull the finger out and get down to the nitty gritty that's plagued the overall gameplay from day dot.

[Karl Streiger]

OpCentar, on 27 March 2013 - 02:43 AM, said:

Really? no problem with tier 6 in your Hetzer? not likely unless you shoot premium ammo with the derp howitzer.

The advantage of the Hetzer was its low profile - and the fast firing and precise gun.

I should admit this is based on data that is now 1 year old. But i can remember that i have killed a VK 3601 and a Slugger when they are rushing into our base. They didn't answer fire, so i believe they did not know where i was.

Never used gold ammo...although i started to use the howitzer in the later games.... because every tank in tier 4 was a one shot. Tier 5 tanks were nearly destroyed after a hit.
At least there was the fact that i knew that no one in this match could beat me....pure ignorance and arrogance but it worked.

When i didn't got a good hiding place and was forced in head on battles with Tier 6 and 7 i died....

[Thirdstar]

Soy, on 27 March 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

Hahahahahahaha this sounds like one hell of a bad game.

This may sound strange but that's actually a feature of WoT. It tries to accurately model the effect of hitting tank armor. So hitting heavy front armor may result is a bounce. Hitting side armor when the the target is angled may also produce a bounce.

Curved armor bounces more, boxxy vertical armor bounces less.

Edited by Thirdstar, 27 March 2013 - 03:00 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Thirdstar, on 27 March 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

This may sound strange but that's actually a feature of WoT. It tries to accurately model the effect of hitting tank armor. So hitting heavy front armor may result is a bounce. Hitting side armor when the the target is angled may also produce a bounce.

Curved armor bounces more, boxxy vertical armor bounces less.

Althoug even russian 90° armor bounce...while US sloped armor is for most case a penetrating hit.... was second reason why i stoped playing.