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World Of Tanks And The Mwo New Player Experience - A Story


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#41 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:03 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 27 March 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

Althoug even russian 90° armor bounce...while US sloped armor is for most case a penetrating hit.... was second reason why i stoped playing.


the brits felt the same way when they got sold surplus WW1 material. hence the firefly, a sad desperate attempt to make cheap paper doll of a tank an opponant on the field. my great uncle commanded churchils and said the most fearsom weapon was the flamer, the most feared tank was the all fireing all armoured all manouverable panzer V and the worst tanks were shermans when toppled over the turrets just used to fall off slicing the gunner's body in two if he was sitting in there at the time. shermans were simply out of date deathtraps.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 27 March 2013 - 03:03 AM.


#42 jeffsw6

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:05 AM

View PostMoromillas, on 27 March 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

This, a thousand times over.

The new player experience is daunting at best. We need more to make it interesting for new players, to get them acclimated to the game, to get them past the initial "what the hell do I do." A proper in-game tutorial complete with hands on training and instruction is the way to go, I have no idea how to improve the trial system though.

I can see that Piranha are trying to alleviate this (with matchmaking that still needs improvement), but we do need more in my opinion.

You really can't have a "fun" novice experience in a multi-player game where skill matters at all, unless you construct a way for the novices to have artificial advantages vs veterans.

Why? Simple. You are not going to have hundreds of total newbies online 24x7 playing matches against each-other. They don't stay "total newbie" for very long, they get better. You on your 50th match could probably beat 2 of you on your 10th match just because you know the objectives and the layout of the maps, let alone that you might own a nice mech by then and know how to drive it better.

There is no single-player and you can't expect novices to enjoy going to the testing grounds to find out how to headshot a JM6 because they likely don't even know about headshots yet!

There has to be a mechanism for encouraging veteran players to join matches vs novices, where the novices have significant advantages and stand a chance to get kills. Maybe the noobs out-number the vets, have triple armor, unlimited heat or ammo, greater rate of fire, whatever. There are a lot of ways that novices could be given an advantage; and veteran players could be rewarded by ... having a lot of noobs to kill for CB/XP.

I went like 20 matches without killing my first enemy mech. It was very frustrating. Dropping on different maps all the time, especially River City Night, sucks for a newbie, too!

There are a LOT of ways for newbies to get pissed and delete this game. Creating a way for them to get some kills would go a long way toward encouraging players to stick around for a while.

#43 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:05 AM

This is a great post and PGI would do very well to listen. They cling onto the trial mech system for dear life while not giving players any balanced way to have fun in those trial mechs.

Trial mechs should only be dropping vs other trial mechs.

However my heavy suspicion is that this is how PGI makes money, as does WoT, people pay to skip the massacre in crap tanks/mechs that occurs.

IMHO there is a better solution, however, I am no expert in this area.

However it is 100% true on third person. Third person is IMHO a massive cop-out and a bunch of lying bull-crap. Counter-strike didn't need 3rd person to be viable. 3rd person in MWO has 0 to do with this games success vs much more pressing issues, like poor system design.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 27 March 2013 - 03:05 AM.


#44 zmeul

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:31 AM

the tutorial in WoT is a very recent thing, last patch (or was 2 patches ago), cant' recall exactly since I don't play WoT anymore

#45 Thirdstar

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:38 AM

View Postzmeul, on 27 March 2013 - 03:31 AM, said:

the tutorial in WoT is a very recent thing, last patch (or was 2 patches ago), cant' recall exactly since I don't play WoT anymore


Which is why I pointed to Warthunder's tutorial.

#46 tenderloving

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:39 AM

View PostTest Monkey 13, on 27 March 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

Enough with the requests for 3rd person. This game has never been 3rd person stop requesting it please. League of Legends allows higher level players to play lower level players simply by allowing them to select it in the game options. In addition, LoL doesn't discern between a player who is high level just messing around with noobs on an alternate account. His skill and such far outclassing the new players. MWO uses an ELO so a player who is 1300 wins and 50 losses will never face a new player. League of Legends will allow it. Trial Mechs are fine if you understand heat. Most mechs are versatile and allow new players to experience multiple weapon systems. If you allow the community to make a laser boat (for example) it doesn't allow the new player to find a weapon of choice on his own. MWO will get there with tutorials eventually, it has added the sandbox mode too.


Bolded items are patently false. I have no idea where you are getting your information, or if you are a troll, but you are 100% wrong.

MWO and LoL both use ELO, so any abuses that take place in LoL with alternate accounts would also take place in MWO.

The trial mech comment makes me think you are a troll. Even PGI has admitted that they are subpar.

Edited by tenderloving, 27 March 2013 - 03:41 AM.


#47 Moromillas

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:41 AM

View Postjeffsw6, on 27 March 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

You really can't have a "fun" novice experience in a multi-player game where skill matters at all, unless you construct a way for the novices to have artificial advantages vs veterans.

Why? Simple. You are not going to have hundreds of total newbies online 24x7 playing matches against each-other. They don't stay "total newbie" for very long, they get better. You on your 50th match could probably beat 2 of you on your 10th match just because you know the objectives and the layout of the maps, let alone that you might own a nice mech by then and know how to drive it better.

There is no single-player and you can't expect novices to enjoy going to the testing grounds to find out how to headshot a JM6 because they likely don't even know about headshots yet!

There has to be a mechanism for encouraging veteran players to join matches vs novices, where the novices have significant advantages and stand a chance to get kills. Maybe the noobs out-number the vets, have triple armor, unlimited heat or ammo, greater rate of fire, whatever. There are a lot of ways that novices could be given an advantage; and veteran players could be rewarded by ... having a lot of noobs to kill for CB/XP.

I went like 20 matches without killing my first enemy mech. It was very frustrating. Dropping on different maps all the time, especially River City Night, sucks for a newbie, too!

There are a LOT of ways for newbies to get pissed and delete this game. Creating a way for them to get some kills would go a long way toward encouraging players to stick around for a while.

I've seen a few mechanics that have a "new player bonus" or something like it, and it's impossible to balance, impossible. I think improving ELO's accuracy, and improving the matchmaker are the way to go. They also mentioned adding a very basic bot to the Mechs in testing grounds in the last ask the devs(?), which should also go a long way for new players.

#48 zmeul

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:48 AM

View PostThirdstar, on 27 March 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

Which is why I pointed to Warthunder's tutorial.

WT has a tutorial and single player missions that unlock gradually with each nation tier

I don't play WT anymore, either - although is a very good game, it has an extremely greedy dev
why? pay to win
also, the EU shop overcharges up to 28% more compared to RU and US shops, why? because they can; questioned Gaijin about it .. silence

Edited by zmeul, 27 March 2013 - 03:48 AM.


#49 Grim Kodiak

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:59 AM

View Postvalkyrie, on 26 March 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

.. Because I'm a huge weeaboo who loved Girls und Panzer and had this nearly unscratchable itch to play around in a PzKpfw IV.

Take a look at
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Review:
http://www.simhq.com.../land_116a.html

#50 Myc

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:01 AM

I came straight form League of Legends to MWO. Here's my 2 cents.

In LOL, there is only the level of the players. The matchmaking sytem seemed to be pretty good when I was building up to lvl 30 (max). I rarely got matched with high level players while I was a low level. The teams were generally balanced. If they had a lvl 30, we usually did too. Once level 30, 99% of my matches were against all lvl 30 players. There were runes to buy, they could be thought of as modules. They were affordable until you get to level 30. The top tier runes cost a lot. No problem, it just gives you something to build toward for a long time.

In MWO, you have a pilot tree and mech trees. Currently, the pilot trees are not that relevant, as there are not that many super-useful modules. Over time I believe that this will change. Matchmaking involving mech trees seems to be my problem. I get my *** handed to me a lot when building new mechs. Having to build 3 of them when I can barely get a kill is a frustrating situation. Once I get every unlock aside from mastery, it generally goes smoother. I am sure that this can partially be attributed to practice with the mech, but I believe that the mech trees definitely make a difference. In LOL you simply have your Summoner skills/spells. This could be thought of as your pilot skills.

The other thing is the trial mechs vs weekly free champions on LOL. The free champions on LOL (there are 8 every week), are no different than they would be if you bought them. Being a new player and using a freebee is not a disadvantage. This is proven by the fact that there are a lot of lvl 30 players on LOL that use the free champions regularly. In MWO, I don't use a trial mech, even if it is one I am considering purchasing.

I don't know how to fix this. Better matchmaking I am sure will help (noobs with noobs, or new mechs with new mechs). I will say that I have had fun playing both games and have spent money on both. I will likely spend more on this one, but not if it's the only way I can win a match. If it goes pay to win, I am done.

#51 zmeul

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:13 AM

View PostMyc, on 27 March 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

If it goes pay to win, I am done.

"if"!?!?
I can't stress this enough, P2W is already here
how long does it take a free player to reach 15k GXP? a month of continuous gameplay, more?
the coolshot upgrade is not the only module that requires huge amounts of GXP, but is the only one that has a MC counterpart

something that PGI hasn't explained as far as I saw: is the upgrade tied to a class, to a chassis or is it global?

I have no issue with PGI sticking to selling cosmetic stuff and even premium account time
but in game items that do not have an exact counterpart that can be purchased with in-game currency day1 .. that I can't tolerate

Edited by zmeul, 27 March 2013 - 04:15 AM.


#52 Thirdstar

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:19 AM

View Postzmeul, on 27 March 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

EU shop overcharges


I was under the impression that while unfortunate, this is a fairly common occurrence across delivery methods/games whatnot.

My EU friends always complain about Steam's strange pricing, not to mention the release schedules.

#53 Side Step

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:20 AM

View Postzmeul, on 27 March 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

"if"!?!?
I can't stress this enough, P2W is already here
how long does it take a free player to reach 15k GXP? a month of continuous gameplay, more?
the coolshot upgrade is not the only module that requires huge amounts of GXP, but is the only one that has a MC counterpart

something that PGI hasn't explained as far as I saw: is the upgrade tied to a class, to a chassis or is it global?

(...)


It's a pilot skill, not a mech skill, so it's global.

#54 Thirdstar

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:31 AM

View PostSide Step, on 27 March 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

It's a pilot skill, not a mech skill, so it's global.


GXP takes a LONG time to accumulate if you don't play very often. You'll also get much more if buy premie time. The man has a point.

#55 Sybreed

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:44 AM

View Postvalkyrie, on 26 March 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

I've been playing World of Tanks a little bit as of late. Why? Because I'm a huge weeaboo who loved Girls und Panzer and had this nearly unscratchable itch to play around in a PzKpfw IV. World of Tanks looked to scratch that itch, and I figured "well, why not, it's halfway up the tech tree, can't be too hard to unlock."

Oh man, was I wrong. But, if nothing else, I learned some lessons about what I like and don't like as a new player that hopefully PGI can apply to MWO.

Things start out simple enough. You get a handful of Tier I light tanks that start out their country's respective tech trees. Germany gets the Leichttractor light tank, which leads then branches out into various light tanks, medium tanks, tank destroyers, and self-propelled guns. To move down the tree, you have to first get enough XP to research the parts to progress, then buy them. The first win of every day in each chassis gets you double experience, and I was lucky enough to have been given some starting currency at SXSW to kick things along. OK, let's roll out in the Leichttra-

Oh? What's this? An actual TUTORIAL? And I get rewards for doing it? Ok, why not?
*five minutes later*
Ok, simple enough. NOW let's roll out in the Leichttractor!

I got my *** handed to me. Again. And again. And again. I'm not bad at these sorts of games and I took to the concepts presented pretty quickly (being a BF3 tank ace has given me a real knack for armored combat). The difficulty came more from the fact that I was facing people with heavily upgraded tier I and tier II tanks. I'd shoot and reload, they'd shoot me three times in the span it took for me to get another shell in the chamber. They'd drive circles around me with upgraded engines and turrets, and hit more often than me because their crews were better trained. Nonetheless, I suffered through the first twenty or so games, scoring a few kills and wins as I learned the maps better and slowly upgraded my lowly tank. A few hours later and I had progressed down the tree to the PzKpfw 38(t) - only two steps to go until I could rock the PzKpfw IV! That's when the REAL game hit me like a sack of bricks.

Game after game, my PzKpfw 38(t) would be dropped against Churchills, StuG IIIs, PzKpfw IVs, M3 Lees, M4 Shermans, etc.,all of which were clearly labeled as one or two tiers above my tank's tech level. I'd frequently move along the borders of the map, trying to avoid contact simply because any shots I -did- hit with would frequently bounce off. The enemy, on the other hand, could fire one shot at my front armor and turn my light tank into a piñata. Game after game I'd lose to swift, blinding death from nowhere, then see in spectator mode that many of these much heavier tanks were frequently not only packing way more firepower than I was, but moving as fast if not faster and with better maneuverability to boot. After my tenth spontaneous explosion for the night at the hands of the PzKpfw IV I so desperately wanted, I realized I was making all of about 90XP per loss. The PzKpfw IV requires 15,000XP to research, and no amount of Gold in the world could buy me one before that. Oh, and I still had to research, buy, and upgrade the PzKpfw 38nA before THAT.

I said "**** this," Alt+F4'd, and jumped on MWO, where I proceeded to faceroll some unsuspecting team in my Ilya Muromets. Will I go back to WoT to get my PzKpfw IV? Probably. Will I put any money into the game? Probably not - I just don't enjoy it that much, mostly due to my experiences as a new player.

So, what's this got to do with MWO? Simply put, it's pretty clear that PGI wants 3rd person (amongst other things) in to help improve the new player experience. By looking at what made me ragequit WoT earlier tonight, we might be able to figure out what isn't working in MWO for the average new player, who usually is lacking a support base or pre-existing MC to play with as most of us had.

Now, don't get me wrong, MWO isn't NEARLY as brutal on new players who go "I want that!" as WoT is, but there's still room for improvement. Here's what I noticed worked (and didn't) for me as new player in WoT, and how they could apply to MWO. It's a short list, I promise:
  • An actual, scripted tutorial. While I understood most of WoT's mechanics because I'm not stupid and pick up on things pretty quickly, the tutorial still gave me a few pointers I otherwise would've missed, like using shift for first person zoom, and hiding from enemy LOS entirely by hiding in bushes (I had no idea you actually didn't RENDER when you were hidden. In comparison, MWO is a far, FAR more complex game, and frankly, YouTube videos are not going to cut it. When you have the incredible array of things you're asked to understand and manage in MWO (spotting, radar, heat management, commander view, ECM, lock-ons, weapon groupings, location-based damage...the list goes on), you HAVE to walk people through it. Learning that your torso and legs move independently of one another is of minimal concern in comparison. Otherwise, they'll end up overwhelmed and leave before they spend a single cent.
  • Revise the ENTIRE Trial 'Mech system. I've since realize that the reason I'm so hopelessly outclassed at all times in WoT is because I'm not putting the time into each tank to upgrade it and make it viable because I'm busy tech rushing right to the tank I want. MWO doesn't have this issue since you just buy everything outright, but the Trial 'Mechs present a serious issue. They're very, very rarely competitive in the metagame at all - the Hunchback -4SP and Catapult -K2 having thus far been the sole exceptions. Chances are it would be far better to fully explain how the game and 'MechLab work, have the player play some in 'Mechs that are custom designed to help new players learn the system rather than designed for TT, then give them a free 'Mech of their own to continue tweaking and learning the ropes on - ideally a Hunchback of their choice, since it can easily fill almost any role sans "ECM *******." This way, they'll have an opportunity to learn different playstyles and have something that could actually be rebuilt to stay competitive, as well as start them on the right foot towards whatever ride they eventually decide they really want. Of course, if they like the game enough to want to buy a 'Mech outright with MC, that's fine too - perhaps give them a one-time "new player discount" on a stock (read: non-Hero) 'Mech option instead of the free Hunchback. However, to get them to stay long enough to spend money, they have to actually like the game first, which will be greatly helped by the aforementioned tutorial far more than something like 3PV.
  • Don't throw them to the sharks right off the bat. While I haven't played it myself, I understand that League of Legends doesn't actually allow you to play ranked games until you've completed a certain number of games. MWO could benefit from this too, pooling new players under a certain game number together, perhaps along with low ELO players. The important part is to keep them from being tossed in against Cataphract jump snipers and PPC boating Stalkers right off the bat. Nothing kills fun faster than a sense of hopelessness. Frankly, if I hadn't been penned in with the rookies in Tier 1 of World of Tanks, I would've dumped it a long time ago. Nobody likes dying in a few hits to experienced players, especially in games where you're not only just learning the ropes, but it takes forever to actually kill someone in comparison to most modern games.
tl;dr read the whole thing, don't be lazy. MWO, while less grindy than some of it's competitors, is still far from new player friendly. Third person view is ultimately putting a band-aid on a bullet hole - the new player experience needs significant reworking if PGI ever hopes to attract more than the most dedicated players.



If you have similar experiences with other F2P games, I'd love to hear them and how MWO could learn from the successes and mistakes of others.


Hey, just a quick reply to tell you I had the exact same experience with WoT... I saw the Panzer IV and I wanted it immediatly! But trust me, even when you get it, you're still facing tier 6-7-8 and you're tier 5, so things don't really improve that much on that end...

And for some reason a Sherman can stand toe to toe against such a tank, while historically a Panzer would have no problem taking a sherman out.

#56 Side Step

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:48 AM

View PostThirdstar, on 27 March 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:


GXP takes a LONG time to accumulate if you don't play very often. You'll also get much more if buy premie time. The man has a point.

He does. I didn't mean to refute the rest of his post if it seemed like it. Just answering his question.

#57 Mitchoor

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 05:07 AM

Awesome, like what you said and really does ring true, there is so much to learn and what they nailed in 75% of the older version is that tutorial stage and weening you into combat not letting you hit the bigger missions till your ready.

Hitting the remote out posts and low paying runs, being teamed up with 1-2 larger mechs while your small then basing the group on the rank of those your with. So many RPG games do this and they work, look at the sucess of everquest, its that making the payer want to level that has made it one of the longest running online rpg games.

Lets hope the dev team read these posts and see what they can bring togeather.

#58 General Taskeen

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 05:25 AM

The thing I hate, hate about WoT is that it tries to be a 'simmy' Tank experience even though its unrealistic arcade nonsense. They throw you in a Panzer 38 (t) against Josef Stalin tanks, no real WW2 battle scenarios by year with the correct tanks facing each other, etc. You won't be counterattacking the Russian Operation Little Saturn at Stalingrad, or fighting in the Bocage of the Western Front against a huge Alliled armored column in a Panther like the Ace Ernst Barkmann did, no immersion. Just stupid. And I find it even more annoying that MWO copied their crap game modes.

Now this is a real Tank Simulator, and you get to do it in the awesome Tiger


Edited by General Taskeen, 27 March 2013 - 05:33 AM.


#59 Myc

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 06:05 AM

View Postzmeul, on 27 March 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

"if"!?!?
I can't stress this enough, P2W is already here
how long does it take a free player to reach 15k GXP? a month of continuous gameplay, more?
the coolshot upgrade is not the only module that requires huge amounts of GXP, but is the only one that has a MC counterpart

something that PGI hasn't explained as far as I saw: is the upgrade tied to a class, to a chassis or is it global?

I have no issue with PGI sticking to selling cosmetic stuff and even premium account time
but in game items that do not have an exact counterpart that can be purchased with in-game currency day1 .. that I can't tolerate


Agreed. I have stated the same thing in another thread. I also included airstrikes and artillery. PGI has stated that they would work the same way. If you want to get all 3 on the same playing field as paying players, you will need 45000 GXP. I cannot imagine how long that would take. That is also assuming that these are the only thing that you spend your GXP on. I think that advanced sensors are the best module currently, along with perhaps advanced target decay for the LRMs.

I think that the best way to even this up (aside from ditching the MC purchased upgraded consumables entirely) is to refine how GXP is earned. Currently, GXP is also something that is purchased for MC. Don't give me technicalities and tell me otherwise. If I spent no MC, I might have 1 module by now. I spent MC, and I have 3 modules unlocked, 2 of them upgraded to advanced, and over 130,000 GXP banked for the future. Don't tell me that the MC I got with my founder's pack didn't get me an advantage.

We need to make maxed out mechs earn GXP only. Possibly at a reduced rate, if it's that touchy of a subject. Perhaps make some non-mc conversion for exchanging xp for gxp. I have seen this suggested multiple times, and I have not read anything on the matter from PGI. They seem to be getting greedy and they will sink this game if it continues.

I love this game, overall. Please don't **** it up, PGI.

#60 zmeul

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 06:46 AM

View PostThirdstar, on 27 March 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

I was under the impression that while unfortunate, this is a fairly common occurrence across delivery methods/games whatnot.

My EU friends always complain about Steam's strange pricing, not to mention the release schedules.

but I can't tolerate it, can I? I vote with my wallet
why should I pay 28% more for the exact same thing RU and US pay for?

some of these differences can be nailed down to VAT / country
but the overcharge I talk about is on top of VAT





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