89 replies to this topic

[Voidcrafter]

MustrumRidcully, on 29 March 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

If that's not what Battletech is about... Then maybe the game mechanics should support and encourage what it is about and hinder and discourage what it is not about?

Players just do what works best. Why shouldn't they, winning is fun and kinda the point of games like this.

Winning is fun, but your only goal shouldn't be winning but have more fun
Not once (we)I've left the cap point when we were clearly about to win, when (we) I was outnumbered, just to put a fair fight instead of victory with no glory in it - and it was more fun than people feeling down, cause they lost a game they should've won.
Yea - some may find it stupid, others probably are gonna think, that those slow mechs should be punished for being away and leaving the base unprotected.
That's what I like the most - the challenge - and let's be feair - there is no challenge in either playing with a boom(2xAC20s) build, or palying against one.
The game this far just don't discourage this as it should.
There aint THAT open maps, that leave this players feeling helpless - actually, as I noted, quite the oposite.
That's what I have against the boating and these nuke builds - it's a shortcut toward victory and they're killing the point of the challenge.

[Sephlock]

Forestal, on 29 March 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

In fact, I suspect that the only reason the Devs refuse to nerf, err, I mean "balance" the ECM is because it is the only thing which they were certain would force a "stealth/ tactical" element into the game.

Are you sure it isn't just that they use it themselves?

[Ralgas]

Voidcrafter, on 29 March 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

Winning is fun, but your only goal shouldn't be winning but have more fun
Not once (we)I've left the cap point when we were clearly about to win, when (we) I was outnumbered, just to put a fair fight instead of victory with no glory in it - and it was more fun than people feeling down, cause they lost a game they should've won.
Yea - some may find it stupid, others probably are gonna think, that those slow mechs should be punished for being away and leaving the base unprotected.
That's what I like the most - the challenge - and let's be feair - there is no challenge in either playing with a boom(2xAC20s) build, or palying against one.
The game this far just don't discourage this as it should.
There aint THAT open maps, that leave this players feeling helpless - actually, as I noted, quite the oposite.
That's what I have against the boating and these nuke builds - it's a shortcut toward victory and they're killing the point of the challenge.

But right there is the problem, too many players are more concerned with the win over the enjoyment. It's why these "cheese" builds get made, it's why they get used. It's why even the remote chance that something new will become the FOTM gets screamed about on the forums. And it's why most complaint threads around here are usually utter rubbish,people would rather get something nerfed than develop counter strategy.

On the flip side they are just so damn hard to stop, especially with the variety of options we have here. Heat mechanics will have to eventually tweak imo, it's the one common theme here that has the most merit as a balanced game changer. It does have it's drawbacks though, builds will just turn to gauss/energy combos (probably what ima be doing with a highlander regardless) which sustain the high dam without the excess heat needs.

[Jack Corban]

Jack Corban, on 29 March 2013 - 02:10 AM, said:

I see but one way to redeem this pile of Cow dung from this point of Metagame. Give the game Hardpoint restrictions that will not let you put a bigger gun to the hardpoint then it had to begin with. As example if there was a "Large Laser" you can put a "Medium Laser" in that place or a "ER Large Laser" or a "Small Laser" but no "PPC". Same for every weapon group. This prevents overly cheese builds and also insures that the original Mechroll that was intendet gets keept to a degree.

And if your really need to put a PPC into that spot you lose one of maybe 2 Hardpoints and have your PPC but nothing else in that spot .

Quoting my selfe here for effect.

[MustrumRidcully]

Voidcrafter, on 29 March 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

Winning is fun, but your only goal shouldn't be winning but have more fun
Not once (we)I've left the cap point when we were clearly about to win, when (we) I was outnumbered, just to put a fair fight instead of victory with no glory in it - and it was more fun than people feeling down, cause they lost a game they should've won.
Yea - some may find it stupid, others probably are gonna think, that those slow mechs should be punished for being away and leaving the base unprotected.
That's what I like the most - the challenge - and let's be feair - there is no challenge in either playing with a boom(2xAC20s) build, or palying against one.
The game this far just don't discourage this as it should.
There aint THAT open maps, that leave this players feeling helpless - actually, as I noted, quite the oposite.
That's what I have against the boating and these nuke builds - it's a shortcut toward victory and they're killing the point of the challenge.

Playing a Dual AC/20 is probably quite a challenge if other people used it (and other so called "cheese" builds) as well. And if you play Dual AC/20 long enough, maybe the match-maker and Elo will finally get you to a place where you get challenged like that again.

If the matchmaker and Elo worked that well.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 29 March 2013 - 02:33 AM.

[Jack Corban]

MustrumRidcully, on 29 March 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

Playing a Dual AC/20 is probably quite a challenge if other people used it (and other so called "cheese" builds) as well. And if you play Dual AC/20 long enough, maybe the match-maker and Elo will finally get you to a place where you get challenged like that again.

If the matchmaker and Elo worked that well.

Let me tell you that its not. I speak first hand. My Jager-S has 2 AC/20, 4 Med Laser and 7 Tons of Ammo for the AC/20 thats 49 Shots. I have 304 Points of Armor and double heatsinks. And even though it uses an XL 260 its a beast up close. Most if not all matches i play i kill 2-4 Mechs alone. And i wouldn't call me the best player ever. More then mediocre yes but not top league material.

[Sephlock]

The weapons already feel weak as hell as it is. There is no sense of panic when you're getting pounded by a Hunchback or Atlas' AC-20

[Roadbeer]

OP. Good job, very well said.

Jack, I get what you're saying, I really do. But as we've discussed in other threads, TT rules just WILL NOT translate into a 3d, real time game. I get that you enjoy CBT and want to adhere to the stock variant rules. But your suggestion of hardpoint restrictions only leads to a downgrade from stock, with little to no room for improvements.

There is already a pretty good balance to what your suggesting in the game that if you want to upgrade a weapon system, you have to take it from somewhere (downgrade engine/armor or a different hardpoint section). If I want to increase the size of my house, I have to downgrade the size of my yard. See, balance.

[jeffsw6]

Sybreed, on 28 March 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

it turns Mechwarrior, a game supposed to be about long mech battles with multiple limbs taken off and such, into 3-5 seconds flash fights where a mech is instantly cored with the rest of the mech almost green. In other words, it feels more like CoD then Mechwarrior and not everyone likes this.

This is exactly my gripe. It did suddenly become popular, too.

It's not that these zillions of players all suddenly realized the Gauss Rifle or ERPPC sniping was great -- it's that their LRM boats became ineffective, so they tried different things until they found a new stand-off weapon, and now there are so many of them, that in every large map match, you might as well defend your base or turn into one of those cheap stand-off snipers (with 40 rounds of Gauss ammo) yourself.

The AC/20 boating, that's the introduction of new mechs with effective gun mounts.

It did happen suddenly, due to these two forces: LRM nerf, and introduction of JM.

I'm not having much fun in the game now. I pray for River City Night, because at least there are a lot of buildings on that map that make snipers ineffective.

[MustrumRidcully]

Sephlock, on 29 March 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

The weapons already feel weak as hell as it is. There is no sense of panic when you're getting pounded by a Hunchback or Atlas' AC-20

I'd still buy this game.

[Roadbeer]

jeffsw6, on 29 March 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

This is exactly my gripe. It did suddenly become popular, too.

It's not that these zillions of players all suddenly realized the Gauss Rifle or ERPPC sniping was great -- it's that their LRM boats became ineffective, so they tried different things until they found a new stand-off weapon, and now there are so many of them, that in every large map match, you might as well defend your base or turn into one of those cheap stand-off snipers (with 40 rounds of Gauss ammo) yourself.

The AC/20 boating, that's the introduction of new mechs with effective gun mounts.

It did happen suddenly, due to these two forces: LRM nerf, and introduction of JM.

I'm not having much fun in the game now. I pray for River City Night, because at least there are a lot of buildings on that map that make snipers ineffective.

It's the ebb and flow of the weapons meta-game. It happens EVERYTIME they tweak a system. LRMs go through the widest swings. Gauss fell into disrepute when it became the Glass Cannon (had its HP reduced). Ballistics were meh until velocity was increased... it's going to be this way until they get it CLOSE to right and stop messing with it.

[Jack Corban]

Roadbeer, on 29 March 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

OP. Good job, very well said.

Jack, I get what you're saying, I really do. But as we've discussed in other threads, TT rules just WILL NOT translate into a 3d, real time game. I get that you enjoy CBT and want to adhere to the stock variant rules. But your suggestion of hardpoint restrictions only leads to a downgrade from stock, with little to no room for improvements.

There is already a pretty good balance to what your suggesting in the game that if you want to upgrade a weapon system, you have to take it from somewhere (downgrade engine/armor or a different hardpoint section). If I want to increase the size of my house, I have to downgrade the size of my yard. See, balance.

Obviously not as it leaves enough room for 6 ER PPC Stalkers and other Monstrocities, no sane Mechwarrior would ever field other then in a world where you respawn directly after the fight only to drop again. Just like here. And thats just not Mechwarrior eaven if you don't wanna believe it. And are in denial about it. The hardpoint restrictions limit you to build a sane Mech. And that is as far as i'm concerned a good thing. Mechs cost money and ressources, lots of them at that Noone can expend a mech and these build we are talking are onehit wonders. Tell me who could afford to loose a Stalker in Battletech just cuz the Pilot decided it would be a great idea to carve his initials into the mountain next over with 6 ER PPC's and gets killed by a jenner cuz he forgot to pack a Medlaser or some brains for that part. These configs are BS alltogether even if you deny that. Its FACT!

[Jetfire]

Even a boated AC/20 Jag is not a 1-shot kill mech, it hurts, it can cockpit you if you are unlucky... but it will never insta core you. I have run them and really they are less effective than AC/2 builds by far and lack range.

[Voidcrafter]

MustrumRidcully, on 29 March 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

Playing a Dual AC/20 is probably quite a challenge if other people used it (and other so called "cheese" builds) as well. And if you play Dual AC/20 long enough, maybe the match-maker and Elo will finally get you to a place where you get challenged like that again.

If the matchmaker and Elo worked that well.

Well yea, do you see the real issue here?
What's the best counter of an 2xAC20 build, you know?
Another 2xAC20 build!
I don't wanna see how this game slowly turns into something, that's won from the player who alphaed with his two AC20s better than the other one.
Quite a few people are defying that, cause they don't enjoy going on the nuke builds, but that's only that - a deffiance(I loved that game btw ).
If they(we) stop doing that - almost every single mech in the game will be a "cheese" build.
Not only about half of them(as is now).
Now how would you like that?

[Roadbeer]

Lulz, I love it when people hold on to their position so pig-headedly that they shout FACT when really it's OPINION.

I don't disagree with your scenario, but without, R&R, they're not going to realize that. The problem is that there is no penalty for playing poorly, not boats.

Put R&R back in, make it so you can still loose money, even if you win the round, and you'll see a lot of the "cheesebuild" problems go away.

[Jack Corban]

Jetfire, on 29 March 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

Even a boated AC/20 Jag is not a 1-shot kill mech, it hurts, it can cockpit you if you are unlucky... but it will never insta core you. I have run them and really they are less effective than AC/2 builds by far and lack range.

U sir... Leave! U have no clue.

Just 2 of my games i happen to have taken screenshots of




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U know what happens if i see a Jenner, Raven,Commando or Spider? SPLAT!
Same goes for most mediums and then with a bit in diffuculty increase Heavies.
Assaults are easy again cuz they are mostly slow and i can circle them.

[MustrumRidcully]

Voidcrafter, on 29 March 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:

Well yea, do you see the real issue here?
What's the best counter of an 2xAC20 build, you know?
Another 2xAC20 build!
I don't wanna see how this game slowly turns into something, that's won from the player who alphaed with his two AC20s better than the other one.
Quite a few people are defying that, cause they don't enjoy going on the nuke builds, but that's only that - a deffiance(I loved that game btw ).
If they(we) stop doing that - almost every single mech in the game will be a "cheese" build.
Not only about half of them(as is now).
Now how would you like that?

The best counter to a Dual AC/20 Jagermech might be a a Hexa Stalker or something like that, I don't know...

Of course it'S a problem if the game is so poorly balanced that there are only a lmited number of good builds, but don't blame players for playing good builds or expect them to stop doing so. That's like saying teenagers "don't use condoms ever, don't have sex until you are married instead!". Human nature won't change for that.

What can change is the game balance so that more options are good.

[Voidcrafter]

Sephlock, on 29 March 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

The weapons already feel weak as hell as it is. There is no sense of panic when you're getting pounded by a Hunchback or Atlas' AC-20

The same scenario is still true.
Man this game was going to be sooo awesome...
Almost feels dreadly sad that won't see it

[MustrumRidcully]

Roadbeer, on 29 March 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

Lulz, I love it when people hold on to their position so pig-headedly that they shout FACT when really it's OPINION.

I don't disagree with your scenario, but without, R&R, they're not going to realize that. The problem is that there is no penalty for playing poorly, not boats.

Put R&R back in, make it so you can still loose money, even if you win the round, and you'll see a lot of the "cheesebuild" problems go away.

R&R sucked the fun out of the game.

In every match you had players that needed C-Bills more than anything else to get along, and resorted to Cap-Rushing, Powering down in dark corners, trial mech suicide farming or AFK farming. Never ever again.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

PGI's weapon strategy is contained in sig. Or rather the players' strategy for dealing with them and :beta:

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 29 March 2013 - 03:06 AM.