89 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Brilig, on 29 March 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

The big problem with high alpha builds are the pinpoint damage they do. My suggestion to "fix" that would be to change the cross hair system around. You can keep things skill based, and avoid pinpoint damage issues from heavy alpha strikes.

or add RNG and everyone hates that but everyone seems to hate pinpoint damage even more

[Roadbeer]

MustrumRidcully, on 29 March 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

R&R sucked the fun out of the game.

In every match you had players that needed C-Bills more than anything else to get along, and resorted to Cap-Rushing, Powering down in dark corners, trial mech suicide farming or AFK farming. Never ever again.

I wouldn't say it sucked the fun out of the game, but gave it a desperately needed risk / reward ratio.

The problems you list with the R&R system are, in fact accurate. But removing R&R was treating the symptom of exploitation, not the disease of an unimplemented economy.

[Training Instructor]

AC20 Jags aren't just good at killing noobs, they're quite proficient at killing experienced or even elite players as well, especially when they're piloted by an elite player.

Now, an elite sniper in a poptart might laugh them off, but most other people won't.

I swear, sometimes people act like they never die or lose matches in this game.

[Terror Teddy]

A few things to make it slightly riskier for alpha mechs - not to riun their fun but to make it more interesting for all parties.

1: UAC/5 fire rate is lowered to the AC/5 - same weapon, different firing mechanics only. This makes the AC5 something worth taking as well (considering the ginormous amount of UAC5 boaters).

2: HEAT. The higher the heat generated in one firing cycle (alpha or group) increase the timer for when heatsinks starts working - a slow increase in heat is ideal for heatsinks to operate properly

3: HEAT. The higher heat we have the higer is also the following:
-Weapon recycle time
-Weapon convergence speed
-Arm movement speed

4: Overheating
-For every time we overheat the heatsink timer is permanently increased during the match for when heatsinks starts working

Edited by Terror Teddy, 29 March 2013 - 03:54 AM.

[Voidcrafter]

Terror Teddy, on 29 March 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

A few things to make it slightly riskier for alpha mechs - not to riun their fun but to make it more interesting for all parties.

1: UAC/5 fire rate is lowered to the AC/5 - same weapon, different firing mechanics only. This makes the AC5 something worth taking as well (considering the ginormous amount of UAC5 boaters).

.....

DONT DARE TOUCH MY UAC5s YOU HEAR ME?!?!?
DON'T YA JUST DARE!!!
UAC5s aint boating - it's quite heavy weapon, which requires probably the most ammount of ammo in the whole game(to be able to run 2 of those you need about 200 shots(so-so optimised) - which is 8 tons(of ammo), so to run 3 --> ~250+ - 10-12 tons, 4... do you really wanna know?

[Roadbeer]

Voidcrafter, on 29 March 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

DONT DARE TOUCH MY UAC5s YOU HEAR ME?!?!?
DON'T YA JUST DARE!!!
UAC5s aint boating - it's quite heavy weapon, which requires probably the most ammount of ammo in the whole game(to be able to run 2 of those you need about 200 shots(so-so optimised) - which is 8 tons(of ammo), so to run 3 --> ~250+ - 10-12 tons, 4... do you really wanna know?

Don't forget all the jamming... weapon is pre-nerfed by design.

[Angus McBeef]

I don't get it. Why do people act like this is a new trend? 9SL turbo cheesebacks, ac/20-pults, gaussapults, streak/splatcats, hell even the 6ML Jenner pre-DHS spawned this exact kind of thread in CB.

[Roadbeer]

Angus McBeef, on 29 March 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

I don't get it. Why do people act like this is a new trend? 9SL turbo cheesebacks, ac/20-pults, gaussapults, streak/splatcats, hell even the 6ML Jenner pre-DHS spawned this exact kind of thread in CB.

IKR

[Voidcrafter]

Roadbeer, on 29 March 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

Don't forget all the jamming... weapon is pre-nerfed by design.

LIES!!!
My UAC5s just love me so much, that few times some people that were watching me, considered me cheater
XL engines, carring so much ammo that you have no choice but put some in the sidetorsos, weapon that jams - all those risky things bring up the challenge for me and I love them.
And while lotta people consider this weapon(UAC5) stupid, I consider it very strategical asset - since you've always NEED to be in a spot, where you can take cover after few shots and you should consider, that your weapons can jam at any time, which is leading you to always try to be around cover or having a backdoor out.
I like that style of play.
And done right it could be devastating.

[Voidcrafter]

Angus McBeef, on 29 March 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

I don't get it. Why do people act like this is a new trend? 9SL turbo cheesebacks, ac/20-pults, gaussapults, streak/splatcats, hell even the 6ML Jenner pre-DHS spawned this exact kind of thread in CB.

Cause right now, except the catapult K2, there are like 3 more mech's that can go with dual gauss/AC20s builds.
And except the splatcat(catapult A1), you got like 5 more mechs that can go with 4 or more missile slots(4 stalkers, one Jager - the A variant), and the same stalkers can go on PPC boating when get bored from SRMing the crap out of people.
We're entering the bad times of "versatile" boating now - mech variants that can go boating in more than one ways, not being punished enough for it.
And more and more from those mechs
So yea... this is kinda starting to be an issue you know?

[MustrumRidcully]

Roadbeer, on 29 March 2013 - 03:28 AM, said:

I wouldn't say it sucked the fun out of the game, but gave it a desperately needed risk / reward ratio.

The problems you list with the R&R system are, in fact accurate. But removing R&R was treating the symptom of exploitation, not the disease of an unimplemented economy.

It was a problem inherent to any R&R system. Design one without this issue and post it on the Suggestion forums. I'd support it if it's good because on some level I like the idea of repair & rearm.

You can also avoid the entire need for a R&R system as balancing system by just balancing weapons and items correctly in the first place. In fact, an R&R system just shifts the way you do it, it still requires the fundamental ability to correctly judge the power of items and tweak game elements so everything is balanced. That's a thing the R&R system we had didn'T achieve either - Ferro Fibrous raised your repair cost like madness, while Endo-Steel was irrelevant, but in-game, the effects of FF are marginal and those of Endo significant. Not eve that was done well.

[Ken Fury]

There is a themittani.com article dealing with that issue:

http://themittani.co.../mwo-king-alpha

It's from Dec 2012.

Go no further in your search for vital information.

Stay ahead of the curve.

Communication is Key.

Other stuff that might interest you (or not):
http://themittani.co...hwarrior-online

[Roadbeer]

MustrumRidcully, on 29 March 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

It was a problem inherent to any R&R system. Design one without this issue and post it on the Suggestion forums. I'd support it if it's good because on some level I like the idea of repair & rearm.

You can also avoid the entire need for a R&R system as balancing system by just balancing weapons and items correctly in the first place. In fact, an R&R system just shifts the way you do it, it still requires the fundamental ability to correctly judge the power of items and tweak game elements so everything is balanced. That's a thing the R&R system we had didn'T achieve either - Ferro Fibrous raised your repair cost like madness, while Endo-Steel was irrelevant, but in-game, the effects of FF are marginal and those of Endo significant. Not eve that was done well.

All good points.

Without a holistic view of the game (CW, faction bonuses, merc bounty, et al ) Writing a proposal for a balanced economy where R&R comes into play, would be completely academic and requiring me to create a script of how the whole game works at large (sans combat). Which, at this point, would never see the light of day.

[Angus McBeef]

Voidcrafter, on 29 March 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

Cause right now, except the catapult K2, there are like 3 more mech's that can go with dual gauss/AC20s builds.
And except the splatcat(catapult A1), you got like 5 more mechs that can go with 4 or more missile slots(4 stalkers, one Jager - the A variant), and the same stalkers can go on PPC boating when get bored from SRMing the crap out of people.
We're entering the bad times of "versatile" boating now - mech variants that can go boating in more than one ways, not being punished enough for it.
And more and more from those mechs
So yea... this is kinda starting to be an issue you know?

Not really. Back then, there were fewer mech chassis. Instead of multiple mechs that can boat the same weapons (now), everyone just used one chassis to boat a particular weapon (then). The proposal of adding a heat penalty to firing multiple weapons at once was proposed waaay back then because of the 'unfair alpha strike capability' of the 9SL hunchback. PPC boating is the only 'new' thing because pre-DHS and heat changes, you'd light on fire.

[Voidcrafter]

Angus McBeef, on 29 March 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

Not really. Back then, there were fewer mech chassis. Instead of multiple mechs that can boat the same weapons (now), everyone just used one chassis to boat a particular weapon (then). The proposal of adding a heat penalty to firing multiple weapons at once was proposed waaay back then because of the 'unfair alpha strike capability' of the 9SL hunchback. PPC boating is the only 'new' thing because pre-DHS and heat changes, you'd light on fire.

I was pointing toward the fact, that now you have more variety on the mechs that can go boating - I for example never went dual AC20s or Splat build then, cause I simply didn't liked the catapult as a mech that much.
But now we have the jager(which I like a lot), and now we have the stalker(which I kinda can say I like) - I still won't go that way, cause I prefer playing more "codex wise" as someone noted on the previous pages, but there're lots of people who see things different

[Sheraf]

Sybreed, on 28 March 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

funny you say that, that's what I suggested to someone who complained about ERPPCs doing too much damage.... a month ago.

This thread isn't about me or my tactics, I know how to deal with heavy alpha strikers, it's about what the game is turning into.

You should really reconsider your tactic. Even my Stalker 3H in XL engine don't die that fast

[Viper69]

Just take the damage our weapons currently do divide it by the number of times that weapons fires in a 10 second period. Drop armor back to table top values along with heat generation based on the above formula and you have a well balanced system around weapons that do less damage but are correct over time.

The Devs have painted themselves into a corner by upping armor and heat but then altering the way heat is dissipated and then having weapons do their TT value damage every shot. Its Beta supposedly its the time to change things like this so it would be nice to try it the way I described once. Oh wait we arent beta testers anymore I forgot.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Unlimited customization is bad in online PVP games. End of story.

Should have just allowed us to use stock mechs and make upgrades like Endo or DHS to add more ammo or armor.

Then PGI would be in control of the game instead of us.

Yes I know some stock is better than others. But its easier for PGI to fix that than it is to fix player customization.

[theDeimos]

I disagree on the OT. High alpha mechs always have issues with something else (heat, speed, armor). I never had problems with ac40 jms. I even ran one too but didnt like it.

Even some stock mechs carry AC40 so why shouldnt it be in game? Save your QQs for when crazy things like the Hunchback IIc hit the battlefield
Screw AC40, UAC40 is the real sh*t

[Lee Ving]

"Yes, big weapons like the gauss or AC/20 have their places, but they shouldn't be able to often end a battle 2 seconds after it started."

This is a bad post and you should feel bad. AC/20 should leave a gaping hole where an arm or a component used to be, and you'd understand that if you played TT / knew that they doubled armor without doubling damage values in game.

Direct TT style with the ability to aim would be much faster than it is now.