55 replies to this topic

[SVK Puskin]

In my opinion sometimes streaks acting very unrealistic - spining around target instead of hiting directly. Is this normal or are you going to fix this? Please respond!

[Roaxis Stalomainis]

I get this sometimes, but when it happens to me it seems logical. The targeting system basically paints the CT when it locks on, so it's going to try all possible routes to reach CT wether it's the front or back side of the targeted battlemech. Now you know why lights that don't use streaks hate mechs that do.

[focuspark]

... yeah, no missile made by man flies like SSRM do. I see them fire out of the front torso of a COM-2D, make an abrupt "J" turn and come for me behind him. Makes no sense.

[Roaxis Stalomainis]

if you think about it though if they were to increase the distance and turn radius of the SSRM it would be a bit more realistic. However, this is Battletech we're talking about which takes place far in the future, it's possible that they have advanced the technology far enough to be able to do this. Just saying that this isn't all realistic, after all, how do these things that defy the laws of engineering actually work?

[Aim64C]

focuspark, on 29 March 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

... yeah, no missile made by man flies like SSRM do. I see them fire out of the front torso of a COM-2D, make an abrupt "J" turn and come for me behind him. Makes no sense.

Partially true.

Missiles in MWO use "chase" guidance... something that has -never- been done in the real world.

Because it isn't at all practical unless the velocity of the missile is at least ten times that of the target. Which... if you're shooting at a mech moving 100 kph - you need a missile traveling about 278 meters per second (1000 kph) to be useful in this scenario. Expand that to the velocities of aircraft (where intercepting targets with guided missiles was a hot topic) and 'chase' simply doesn't work unless you're talking about a guided rail gun projectile.

Current missiles predict a sort of intercept course using a number of different methods - with modern missiles using thrust vectoring and datalinking. So, they will leap off the rail of the firing aircraft and nail some SOB behind it. They'll also come off the rail nearly perpendicular to their angle of fire to gain a proper intercept.

For people who haven't played true air combat simulators - the behavior is often met with shock and a bit of skepticism as to whether or not such things are possible in the real world.

Anyway - streaks behave alright unless you're a Jenner. Then it's practically impossible to use any form of torso twist to avoid getting your CT blown out. The things hit your front CT from behind, even, and it's a bit frustrating.

[MangoBogadog]

Streaks are hitting only CT on lights and mediums right now. I can be running directly away from a mech firing streaks at me in my Jenner or Treb and my back armour stays yellow but my front armour crumbles and I die from CT internal damage.

[ChargerIIC]

Streaks seem to have a guidance bug at the moment. It seems to happen when launched at extremely close ranges or when something is interfering with the lock. The missles will hit (usually a limb) when the mech moves and intercepts the missle flight path. I suspect that the streaks need to have thier guidance fixed to both not shoot wildly off at pointblank range and to properly fail when they take a couple turns and cant hit the target.

[SVK Puskin]

Thanks for your replies, i hope they fix it soon. I think simple solution would be if the streaks would not try to hit only the center torso.

[GHQCommander]

Discussions about realism always come up. I raise them often. I get some mech vet screaming at me saying its just a game as if in this day and age we are to ignore common sense. While other games deliver amazing physics that cost a lot of time plus money to deliver that common sense.

The world of mech will not allow full common sense to be implemented, some things are out of the devs hands.

LRM and even streak would be able to fire straight upwards if player wanted, if it was realistic. How would they implement the ability to control their initial launch trajectory during battle? I suppose it could be automatic and firing on a target at the maximum distance would send LRM a lot higher into the sky in order to perform proper trajectory.

Edited by GHQCommander, 30 March 2013 - 06:34 AM.

[Aim64C]

GHQCommander, on 30 March 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

LRM and even streak would be able to fire straight upwards if player wanted, if it was realistic. How would they implement the ability to control their initial launch trajectory during battle? I suppose it could be automatic and firing on a target at the maximum distance would send LRM a lot higher into the sky in order to perform proper trajectory.

It would depend upon the type of guidance used.

Using proportional navigation, a constant 1 G "upward" acceleration would be figured into the interestingly simple formula. If the missile knows the distance to the target, it can easily figure an initial correction using a climb. The missile wouldn't need constant updates about distance to target - merely an initial value would be sufficient (unless we are talking about a very fast moving target at a long range, such as BVR air-to-air combat).

Though most small SSMs simply burn at a very steep angle of ascent in the direction of their target and then steer while falling onto the target.

Missiles in MWO currently act like a bunch of Havoc Helis programmed to chase you down until they run out of batteries.

[focuspark]

GHQCommander, on 30 March 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Discussions about realism always come up. I raise them often. I get some mech vet screaming at me saying its just a game as if in this day and age we are to ignore common sense. While other games deliver amazing physics that cost a lot of time plus money to deliver that common sense.

The world of mech will not allow full common sense to be implemented, some things are out of the devs hands.

LRM and even streak would be able to fire straight upwards if player wanted, if it was realistic. How would they implement the ability to control their initial launch trajectory during battle? I suppose it could be automatic and firing on a target at the maximum distance would send LRM a lot higher into the sky in order to perform proper trajectory.

My biggest complaint about Streaks is that this is supposed to be a game about skill vs skill in walking tanks. With Streaks, unlike every other weapon type, no amount of skill will allow you to avoid the missile. Even out piloting you opponent such that being behind the guy firing the missile isn't a solution. Modules like 360 tracking mean Streaks can travel anywhere.

[SVK Puskin]

GHQCommander, on 30 March 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Discussions about realism always come up. I raise them often. I get some mech vet screaming at me saying its just a game as if in this day and age we are to ignore common sense. While other games deliver amazing physics that cost a lot of time plus money to deliver that common sense.

The world of mech will not allow full common sense to be implemented, some things are out of the devs hands.

LRM and even streak would be able to fire straight upwards if player wanted, if it was realistic. How would they implement the ability to control their initial launch trajectory during battle? I suppose it could be automatic and firing on a target at the maximum distance would send LRM a lot higher into the sky in order to perform proper trajectory.

If you remember this was in the game already but they removed it because LRMs were hiting targets behind cover.

[Mypa333]

focuspark, on 30 March 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

My biggest complaint about Streaks is that this is supposed to be a game about skill vs skill in walking tanks. With Streaks, unlike every other weapon type, no amount of skill will allow you to avoid the missile. Even out piloting you opponent such that being behind the guy firing the missile isn't a solution. Modules like 360 tracking mean Streaks can travel anywhere.

I run a Spider SDR-5D, at 151 KPH and the streaks still find a way to get me, most of them coming from Ravens 3L, circling me and then hitting my center torso, always my center torso. WTF am i supposed to do with a the armor of a Spider?

If I met a Catapult packing streaks, I'd know what to do. They can't follow me but a raven with 100 KPH, will be able to keep track of me.

So lights are nothing now. You have a Raven 3L or you don't have anything. Damn Ravens and their skilled pilots.

I HAVEN'T SEEN USERS COMPLAINING ABOUT CATAPULT STREAKS OR STALKER STREAKS AS MUCH AS THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT RAVENS.

Edited by Mypa333, 30 March 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[Aim64C]

focuspark, on 30 March 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

My biggest complaint about Streaks is that this is supposed to be a game about skill vs skill in walking tanks.

... I've yet to really understand what "skill" is.

I mean... how is a Raven with streaks less skilled than a stalker boating large lasers? Lot of skill involved in that, right there.

Though, watching people play after getting my own dumb *** killed, the basic concept of target leading does actually qualify as skill, I suppose. The idea that their weapon has a travel time and that they might need to factor that in to where their crosshairs are when they pull the trigger is something akin to voodoo.

It's times like these that I sit in utter amazement that human beings ever managed to discover farming strategies, metallurgy, electricity, etc.

Quote

With Streaks, unlike every other weapon type, no amount of skill will allow you to avoid the missile. Even out piloting you opponent such that being behind the guy firing the missile isn't a solution. Modules like 360 tracking mean Streaks can travel anywhere.

Sometimes, part of skill is knowing when you do and do not have the advantage in loadout. You can't expect to have a game with as diverse an arsenal as MechWarrior that allows you to freely engage and win against any opponent based on the credibility of your ego. Some designs will simply have an advantage against yours that... depending upon a host of factors, may be nearly impossible to mitigate.

If you happen to be the last man standing against such a design... well... such is war.

I think the main flaw with the 3L is that both ECM and streaks can be equipped on the chassis ... which, given the mechanics of streaks, is an absolutely evil combination. The solution is simple - make ECM not work against streaks.

Giving streaks a bit of a cluster roll, as well, would go a long way to rounding them out. Mechs with streaks would still be very effective anti-light platforms, but would not be Core-O-Matics.

Which is odd - because I've seen streaks -not- hitting the CT of larger mechs, but seemingly zeroing in on the CT of light mechs. I'm fairly certain this is an artifact of the silly guidance system they use for missiles - but I could be wrong.

[MangoBogadog]

Mypa333, on 30 March 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

I run a Spider SDR-5D, at 151 KPH and the streaks still find a way to get me, most of them coming from Ravens 3L, circling me and then hitting my center torso, always my center torso. WTF am i supposed to do with a the armor of a Spider?

If I met a Catapult packing streaks, I'd know what to do. They can't follow me but a raven with 100 KPH, will be able to keep track of me.

So lights are nothing now. You have a Raven 3L or you don't have anything. Damn Ravens and their skilled pilots.

I HAVEN'T SEEN USERS COMPLAINING ABOUT CATAPULT STREAKS OR STALKER STREAKS AS MUCH AS THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT RAVENS.

+1

[astinius]

Simple...streaks should not only target CT. This would balance many aspects of the game

[SVK Puskin]

astinius, on 30 March 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Simple...streaks should not only target CT. This would balance many aspects of the game

Yeah exactly, let's see what are they going to do in the future with it and i hope it will be near future.

[SVK Puskin]

Where is the reply from responsible person?

[focuspark]

Aim64C, on 30 March 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

... I've yet to really understand what "skill" is.

I mean... how is a Raven with streaks less skilled than a stalker boating large lasers? Lot of skill involved in that, right there.

At least with the Stalker the pilot needs to aim and then keep the laser on target for a full second. Streaks on the other hand, just need a lock which can be attained at great range so long as your reticle is somwhere "near" the target. Then to keep the lock, one must only pass the reticle near the target every 2-3 seconds. Once a lock is obtained, Streak pilots need only hold down the fire button as the weapons will not fire if there's no lock or if the target is out range. When fired, the missiles will travel at any angle (straight ahead, 90 degrees to the side, or 180 degrees behind) to reach their target; even to the point of passing through the launching mech's geometry to do so. To make matters worse, the missiles will make incredible aerobatic maneuvers to strike the CT nearly every time.

So while the Stalker pilot with a boat load of Large Lasers needs to actually aim and will find it incredibly difficult to place the damage consistantly in a single location; the Raven pilot with Streaks only needs to have a lock on to continually and without fail strike the CT of his target.

Have I mentioned that the lock on duration and 360 lock on modules make Streaks completely amazing? There's basically no escaping an ECM mech with these modules.

So, there you have it. I may not have defined skill, but I've definitely defined the absence of it.

Edited by focuspark, 30 March 2013 - 11:43 PM.

[blinkin]

Mypa333, on 30 March 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

I run a Spider SDR-5D, at 151 KPH and the streaks still find a way to get me, most of them coming from Ravens 3L, circling me and then hitting my center torso, always my center torso. WTF am i supposed to do with a the armor of a Spider?

If I met a Catapult packing streaks, I'd know what to do. They can't follow me but a raven with 100 KPH, will be able to keep track of me.

So lights are nothing now. You have a Raven 3L or you don't have anything. Damn Ravens and their skilled pilots.

I HAVEN'T SEEN USERS COMPLAINING ABOUT CATAPULT STREAKS OR STALKER STREAKS AS MUCH AS THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT RAVENS.

this is mostly because streaks have fallen out of favor with the larger mechs. before ECM came around catapult A1 was the ultimate light mech killer. streaks have always been an issue, but now most mechs that don't run ECM have stopped using them.

the complaints were there in closed beta long before ECM showed up. now a chunk of that blame is soaked up by ECM. i wish we would remove ECM for a week so the people who didn't play in closed beta could see how royaly screwed up streaks are on their own. raven 3L would still be the best raven because it has more missile hard points, the only difference is it would have to share the field with the jenner D and the commando 2D.

take a look at the jenner F. 6 energy hard points. how many energy weapons suffer ill effects from ECM? if it were purely an ECM issue then we would be seeing decent jenner F builds on fairly equal ground with the raven.

streaks are borked.

Aim64C, on 30 March 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Sometimes, part of skill is knowing when you do and do not have the advantage in loadout. You can't expect to have a game with as diverse an arsenal as MechWarrior that allows you to freely engage and win against any opponent based on the credibility of your ego. Some designs will simply have an advantage against yours that... depending upon a host of factors, may be nearly impossible to mitigate.

i have an ERPPC on my jenner. i am not demanding it be made more effective against other light mechs (although it is much better than most would think). no one here is demanding that we make all weapons equal. i enjoy landing those difficult shots with my ERPPC on other mechs, and i find the reward roughly equal to the required skill.

what are we supposed to do when we don't have the advantage? run away? i enjoy a hard fight, but when i am beaten by barely conscious morons, who spend most of their time running into buildings, just because they have mastered W+m1 i think it is BS.

the advantage they have that no one can mitigate is THEY DON'T HAVE TO AIM. it is not a matter of having a better build. it is all about whether or not they mount ONE WEAPON.

what will happen when the SRM6 shows up? should the developers just remove every light mech that does not have any missile hard points?

one weapon to rule them all.