94 replies to this topic

[Frantic Pryde]

xhaleon, on 07 November 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

Since when were SRMs unguided in the fluff? They're just short ranged. Only MRMs are unguided, as people have noted, as they are the only ones with the dice roll penalty.

Want to separate Streaks and normal SRMs in a realtime game? Make sure that Streak SRMs can turn around on a dime, cannot fire without a missile lock, and they only fire if they aren't blocked by some part of the terrain. It won't emulate the effect on the tabletop accurately because fast mechs may still run to cover before the Streaks get there, but in any other situation it would be a guaranteed hit. It would emulate the fluffy aspect of not being able to dumbfire the missiles. Which so happens to not have much of an impact on the tabletop anyway, since a miss is always a complete miss unless you consider accidental forest fires.

This.

In the fluff SRMs and LRMs are fairly identical. The difference is range and the ability to be fired indirectly. SSRMs are supposed to be fully guided, In fact on the table top they won't even fire if they don't achieve a successful lock.

With dumb fire SRMs 99% of the time you will not hit with half your missiles and you have to get really close to use them effectively. Even if you lead them. That kills a lot of mechs abilities to be useful in a combat role. Like the commando and javelin. For example.

[Tweaks]

frantic pryde, on 07 November 2011 - 11:29 AM, said:

This.

In the fluff SRMs and LRMs are fairly identical. The difference is range and the ability to be fired indirectly. SSRMs are supposed to be fully guided, In fact on the table top they won't even fire if they don't achieve a successful lock.

With dumb fire SRMs 99% of the time you will not hit with half your missiles and you have to get really close to use them effectively. Even if you lead them. That kills a lot of mechs abilities to be useful in a combat role. Like the commando and javelin. For example.

You're wrong... Have you played the Crysis mod "MechWarrior: Living Legend"? There are SRMs in there and they are dumbfired. I used to score nice hits with them and busted larger Mechs in the CT or the back quite easily. Sure, not all of them may be hitting, but it did enough damage anyway.

I don't see how it would be different in MWO...

[Lorebot]

The last time I got to play the tabletop game was at a Con more than 5 years ago. The guy hosting the game had a program to randomly generate damage and instantly apply it to the mech sheets that were stored in the memory. He gave us all paper sheets to keep track of things ourselves, but we never even touched dice or a rule book. Every turn he'd just walk his laptop over the person whose turn it was and just punch in the actions taken and then show the person the results and he'd give the player a few seconds to scribble down what he needed on the sheet. We played a full match 8vs8 in about an hour, it was the fastest game I'd ever played. He was selling the program for about $30 and I wish I'd had the money to buy it from him because his website is gone and now I can't find it anywhere

[VYCanis]

SRMs were never dumbfire in the fiction, just in some of the games.
What they were supposed to have had was just relatively simple guidance.

Streaks on the other hand had the fancy shmancy guidance packages and fire control systems.

You can have both of them have guidance and still maintain a difference. Just have SRMs follow your crosshairs when fired while streaks are more fire and forget, but require a solid lock.

boom done.

[Creel]

Lorebot, on 07 November 2011 - 11:25 AM, said:

Nope, as previously stated, all normal missile attacks roll on the Missle Hit Table. That table determines how many missiles from the salvo hit the target and then what location each individual missile strikes. With an SRM8 you probably won't get more than 1 or 2 missiles in a single hit location unless you're very lucky. This is also what makes using LRMs a nightmare in tabletop...rolling individually for an LRM20 takes 3 mins and that's just for 1 of them...if you've got 2, like say on a Catapult...be prepared for a 10min turn if you don't have simplified damage rules or a random damage generator program running on a nearby computer.

LRM damage is allocated in groups of 5 on the hit location table. So an LRM 20 is 1 roll with 4 pairs of dice if all hit.

[Firefly]

Or, you could learn to aim what is arguably a short-range (and thus near-point blank) weapon. Call me crazy but I don't need a lock-on for something which is 250 metres away, which in 'Mech scale is the human-scale equivalent of less than 100 feet away.

[theginganinja]

Here's how I figure it should work, based on a combination of the fiction, gameplay purposes, and the tabletop rules:
1. Standard SRMs: Slap the reticule on the target, pull the trigger. They have very limited guidance - I figure something like the Needler or charged Plasma Pistol shot from Halo 3, if you've played that. You can forget about the missiles afterward, but you don't have guaranteed hits
2. Streak SRMs: Hold the reticule over your target for a couple seconds to lock on, like in MW3. Once you have a lock, pull the trigger and the missiles are dead-on like in MW4.
3. (Since comparisons to LRMs have come up) Lock on and accuracy similar to MW3.
By the by, as long as we're on the subject of how missiles should work, I like how MW4 treated SRMs and MW2 treated all missiles - you actually see this long salvo of individual missiles launching, rather than a single mass of missiles like in MW3 and the LRMs in MW4

[Creel]

irishwarrior, on 07 November 2011 - 12:49 PM, said:

Here's how I figure it should work, based on a combination of the fiction, gameplay purposes, and the tabletop rules:
1. Standard SRMs: Slap the reticule on the target, pull the trigger. They have very limited guidance - I figure something like the Needler or charged Plasma Pistol shot from Halo 3, if you've played that. You can forget about the missiles afterward, but you don't have guaranteed hits
2. Streak SRMs: Hold the reticule over your target for a couple seconds to lock on, like in MW3. Once you have a lock, pull the trigger and the missiles are dead-on like in MW4.
3. (Since comparisons to LRMs have come up) Lock on and accuracy similar to MW3.
By the by, as long as we're on the subject of how missiles should work, I like how MW4 treated SRMs and MW2 treated all missiles - you actually see this long salvo of individual missiles launching, rather than a single mass of missiles like in MW3 and the LRMs in MW4

This is important to me. MW4 broke LRMs by making them streaks (guaranteed hit with lock-on). Lights and mediums were so dangerous in MW3 largely because they could outrun the tracking arc of large LRM salvos. I don't know how many battles I survived by cranking up the speed and watching huge salvos of LRMs dig craters in my dust. LRMs should be guided, but guided should not mean guaranteed hit. One of the biggest things that turned me off when MW4 came out was the LRMs that would do multiple 360s trying to catch up with you. and they always did.

[TheRulesLawyer]

SRMs are like the low tech LBX autocannon series. Each missle hits a different location. Great for getting crits on already damaged mechs, not great for stripping armor. LRM is a cluster weapon. That means it hits in packets of 5pts.

The longer I'm on the boards the more I think the video games have screwed with peoples interpetation of how weapons systems are supposed to work.

[Red Beard]

theforce, on 07 November 2011 - 09:56 AM, said:

How are SRM's different from Streak SRM's in PnP? If I remember correctly, with SRM's you roll to hit, and if you hit you roll to see how many missiles hit. What about streaks?

This game needs to be as far away from the idea of mimicking the tabletop games as humanly possible, in terms of rules. Not that I am trying to insult "theforce", but the tabletop rules have no place in this video game.

[TheRulesLawyer]

red beard, on 07 November 2011 - 02:38 PM, said:

This game needs to be as far away from the idea of mimicking the tabletop games as humanly possible, in terms of rules. Not that I am trying to insult "theforce", but the tabletop rules have no place in this video game.

The TT rules are canon. It *is* battletech. Stray too far and you're no longer making a mechwarrior game. Why bother with the IP if you're going to ignore how the game is supposed to work. We all realize that you can't directly convert TT to real time without some tweaks, but you have to try and stay true to the spirit of those rules.

[Zakatak]

I love SRM's. Big fat rockets that are all warhead and no fuel/electronics.

I don't oppose the semi-guided thing though if we have actual rockets. Although you would have to give Streak's more advantages to compensate. SRM = basic tracking, limited correction (30 degrees max). SSRM = advanced tracking, unlimited correction. Both fizzle out within 300m or 5 seconds of flight time.

Edited by Zakatak, 07 November 2011 - 03:12 PM.

[Red Beard]

TheRulesLawyer, on 07 November 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

The TT rules are canon. It *is* battletech. Stray too far and you're no longer making a mechwarrior game. Why bother with the IP if you're going to ignore how the game is supposed to work. We all realize that you can't directly convert TT to real time without some tweaks, but you have to try and stay true to the spirit of those rules.

Tabletop rules are made for tabletop games. Other than the lore, the rule sets HAVE to be different. I am not suggesting that they dismiss every aspect, but I think that it would be folly to try to adapt as many things as possible to the TT rule set.

[TheForce]

red beard, on 07 November 2011 - 02:38 PM, said:

This game needs to be as far away from the idea of mimicking the tabletop games as humanly possible, in terms of rules. Not that I am trying to insult "theforce", but the tabletop rules have no place in this video game.

I don't agree with this at all - I don't want to play a "walking tank" game, I want to play MechWarrior.

[FireBlood]

I don't know what the argument is here, later there will be Streak SRM's that will track, standard SRM's don't and that's what was available at 3048. Just wait a few months and you can have your tracking missiles.

[minobu tetsuharu]

Lorebot, on 07 November 2011 - 09:55 AM, said:

Um...No.

SRMs have always been dumb fire, that's why Streak SRMs exist.

MRMs are semi tracking and LRMs are full target lock capable

*groans*

Quote

I don't know what the argument is here, later there will be Streak SRM's that will track, standard SRM's don't and that's what was available at 3048. Just wait a few months and you can have your tracking missiles.

The argument is that SRMs should have the exact same mechanism as LRMs. In past games you had to significantly lead your reticule to use SRMs and even then they spread out way too much.

Only rocket launchers and MRMs should be dumbfire as the games have made SRMs into in past videogames.

[Frantic Pryde]

red beard, on 07 November 2011 - 02:38 PM, said:

This game needs to be as far away from the idea of mimicking the tabletop games as humanly possible, in terms of rules. Not that I am trying to insult "theforce", but the tabletop rules have no place in this video game.

What? lol...

Look, as much as I love the tabletop game and would like this to be a direct translation I'm not an ***** either. I realize I'm not the only person in the world playing this game and I absolutely agree there needs to be compromises for the sake of gameplay, fun and coolness factor

But to say we need to stay as FAR AWAY from the board game as possible is crazy... why not call it mechwarrior and turn it into armored core online then? Just slap on the mechwarrior title for kicks? Mechwarrior IS battletech... if you avoid being as much like the board game as possible then its not mechwarrior.

Back to the point... The weapons should function as they are fluffed to function. Now, that doesn't mean you can't take a little creative license and modify them from the way they work on the table top but they should work as they are fluffed to work.

SRMs that don't have some level of guidance are not SRMs. They are just really pathetic MRMs.

[Damocles]

Not like we have a PC game that stuck to the TT rules before, and have any basis to talk sht about it.

Maybe this is the time we actually try it and find out if it works or not.

edit: also, it is only dumb-fire if the pilot is ...dumb. xD

Edited by Damocles, 07 November 2011 - 08:16 PM.

[man o war]

VYCanis, on 07 November 2011 - 11:59 AM, said:

SRMs were never dumbfire in the fiction, just in some of the games.
What they were supposed to have had was just relatively simple guidance.

Streaks on the other hand had the fancy shmancy guidance packages and fire control systems.

You can have both of them have guidance and still maintain a difference. Just have SRMs follow your crosshairs when fired while streaks are more fire and forget, but require a solid lock.

boom done.

I really like this idea. Would stay true to the canon but at the same time be different enough from SSRMs.

[Corsair114]

Just out of curiosity, what advantages would the Artemis IV FCS confer to completely dumbfire SRMs?