94 replies to this topic

[Tierloc]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 08 November 2011 - 12:30 PM, said:

Stuff.

I think that what mektek has done to MW4 has been good/bad for reasons not necessary to go into. As for SRMs though, I do believe adding heat to them gave them a purpose that didn't exist before, whether that disagrees with bt literature or not. I'm not sure I would want to have essentially multiple sets of obsolete srm's and strks.

In that regard, I do hope the developer makes the right decision when it comes down to following classic TT rules and affecting gameplay for the player. I mean common.. you're going to take rules from this and turn it into a simulation model? Looks more like mech commander to me.



Who knows, ask one of the pilots on that table what they think of those rules and they may not like it. Something like:

Quote

In fact, the tactical element is really the entire game. The core experience is maneuvering your forces in such a way that your pilots have a better chance of hitting their targets than getting shot themselves. Then, you designate your troops their targets, and cross your fingers as the Random Number Generator decides (with two six-sided dice) if they hit anything. Repeat until your enemy's mechs are piles of molten scrap metal.

Oh man the breathtaking action. I'm being a little sarcastic (ok, overly sarcastic) but to me, applying TT rules to a mech combat simulator is like applying Axis and Allies board game rules to Call of Duty. Somethings are going to be fun and others just need to ride off into the sunset (or never show up in town in the first place).

[Aaron DeChavilier]

its not that i want to force TT rules on the game! lol
nowhere, absolutely nowhere did I invoke TT accuracy and dice rolling in regards to SRMs!
here, this is what I believe basic SRMs should behave like

now imagine you launch 6 of those at a time; is that so bad? is it <ugh> sooooooo awful!?
I don't really think it is.
as for inferno ammo? make it something you can buy and load into your mech, go for it

[Nebfer]

Oi...

SRMs are guided but not heavily so, they seem to have limited guidance ability. So they will lock but will easily lose that lock.
Art. IV and NARC SRMs upgrade the launcher and missile guidance packages to allow them to be more accurate.

Art IV is a laser designator with a microwave transmitter with upgraded missile control systems, that reduces the spread of missiles (roughly 35% more accuracy) via it's constant series of guidance updates.

NARC is simply a homing beacon that allow missiles equipped with receivers to home in on the beacon.

LRMs are the same as SRMs, but are fired in a ballistic arc.

Streaks SRMs (and later Clan LRMs) have a hard lock and improved guidance systems that allow for all missiles to hit the target. The type of guidance is not specified.

Semi guided LRMs and SRMs are laser guided
and their are IR guided missiles as well, Swarm missiles have smart targeting systems that allow for the searching of new targets if the old one was lost.

MRMs and Rockets are stated to not have any sort of guidance packages what so ever.

[Dragorath]

Actually, I don't like the full locked LRM, why?!
Very easy to explain. 1. In old BT times there where list to check the hit rate of your missles, they are not fully guided! They are not streak missles! 2. Why to use an Artemis System then? 3. Where is the fun? Everyone would love Vultures and Archers.
Furthermore, why not use minimal range again? Even less damage via LRM in short distances or no target-lock at all.
Why should it be semi guided? Missles ar not lasers, every ***** could dodge over far distance. And no one would use heavy artillery mechs with missles.

SRM should be not guided. Short distance = easy to hit. They have an higher damage also written in older Technical Readouts. Instead of range - damage! If they are fully guided? Why should I use streak SRM and go with the higher volume and weight? Takes fun out of the game.

MRM? I never liked 'em! But I would go with medium guidance.

[Strum Wealh]

Lorebot, on 07 November 2011 - 09:55 AM, said:

Um...No.

SRMs have always been dumb fire, that's why Streak SRMs exist.

Well, yes and no - that is true for the previous generations of MW games, but not so much for the canon.

More specifically:

Quote

First introduced in 2370 by the Terran Hegemony, Short Range Missiles are direct-fire missiles that sacrifice range for hitting power. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are less sophisticated than Long Range Missiles and particularly effective against infantry and combat vehicles.

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SRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.

Basic/Default SRMs were "direct-fire" weapons possessing minimal (radar-based?) guidance systems and maneuverability (but still able to benefit from use of Artemis IV FCS and Narc Missile Beacon systems).

That being said, SRMs did have the option of a variety of alternate ammo types, some of which are also guided, including:
Anti-Radiation Missiles - (re)developed by the Free Worlds League in 3065 (and Clan Smoke Jaguar in 3055)
Heat-Seeking Warheads - (re)developed during the mid-24th century, retained since
Listen-Kill Missiles - introduced in 3038 by the Federated Commonwealth, made essentially obsolete by ECM during the mid-3040s (and not effective at all against the Clans).

Moreover, the Streak system is not so much a guidance system as an ammo-conservation system.

Quote

Originally developed in 2647, the Streak SRM Launcher is relatively similar to the standard SRM launcher but linked to a unique Targa-7 fire control system. This system is designed to guarantee a hit against any target onto which the pilot can get a lock, a special feature of this system preventing the weapon from firing at a target when there is no lock-on, saving ammunition by preventing shots that would miss anyway.

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Unlike a standard SRM whose shotgun effect may result in some misses and some hits, Streak guidance gives the lighter launchers the effective average firepower of the heavier and more wasteful SRM systems, but with considerably less variation in damage effects. The only disadvantages are that Streak launchers are incompatible with other missile target acquisition technologies such as the Artemis IV FCS and Narc Missile Beacon, their specialized ammunition is much more expensive, and some users are willing to accept partial hits rather than not be able to fire on demand.

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Like many pieces of advanced Star League technology, the Streak system disappeared during the technological decline of the Succession Wars. The Clans retained and championed the technology, and as an example of their drive towards avoiding waste, expanded it to all three SRM launcher types. Thanks to the Helm Memory Core the Free Worlds League rediscovered the ability to produce the Streak SRM-2 again in 3035, and using this and Clan-tech salvage the Draconis Combine was able to produce Inner Sphere versions of the larger launchers in 3058.

That being said: SRMs are guided, but much less maneuverable than LRMs - they're not going to be able to track very well on their own (though, again, that can be improved by different warheads and use of Narc and Artemis IV systems).

Also:

Lorebot, on 07 November 2011 - 09:55 AM, said:

MRMs are semi tracking and LRMs are full target lock capable

Actually, it's MRMs (introduced by the Draconis Combine in 3058) that are canonically "dead-fire" (unguided):

Quote

Compared to other missile types, Medium Range Missiles are dead-fire missiles that are fired more like autocannons and lasers, but the removal of guidance systems makes each missile more compact, reducing cost and allowing more missiles to be packed in compared to SRM and LRM launchers of similar size and weight.

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Personally, I hope that the Devs eventually implement each of these systems as described above...

Your thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 07 December 2011 - 09:43 AM.

[VYCanis]

I'd really much rather prefer SRMs and LRMs to have some guidance, to differentiate them from cheaper systems like the 1 shot rocket launchers or the MRMs which are specifically noted to not make use of guidance, or at least any decent guidance anyhow.

Obviously streaks should have some of the best, since they pay for it in tonnage and are known for always hitting, followed by Artemis FCS enhanced launchers. then basic launchers, then MRMs, then RLs

Also, you don't necessarily have to make all missiles with guidance lock on. Having a follow the crosshairs type guidance system for certain launch systems could also be fun, and actively requires the player to adjust their aim, and is usually not an easy thing to do.

Also different missile ammos could operate differently. such as
heatseeking, no lock on needed, will go for whatever is hottest. can be spoofed be weaponsfre, dense smoke, large fires, running cool
swarm, will lock on to a target, but any missiles that fly past will continue to attempt to hit anyone around or past that target
anti radiation missiles, like heat seeking but go after mechs with dedicated electronics like ecm or bap

There are many flavors of missile guidance in battletech, no need to just throw it all out

Edited by VYCanis, 07 December 2011 - 10:02 AM.

[Black Sunder]

People are forgetting Artemis IV FCS works for SRMs.

[Strum Wealh]

Black Sunder, on 07 December 2011 - 10:18 AM, said:

People are forgetting Artemis IV FCS works for SRMs.

As do Narc Missile Beacons...

Strum Wealh, on 07 December 2011 - 09:38 AM, said:

Basic/Default SRMs were "direct-fire" weapons possessing minimal (radar-based?) guidance systems and maneuverability (but still able to benefit from use of Artemis IV FCS and Narc Missile Beacon systems).

[Henchman 24]

Cavadus....glad I got your name down....when I see you in-game, I will show you how worthless they are when I pump 3xSRM6 into your back.

You also assume too much, to say nobody ever used them in games because you sucked with them and did not use them...is a stretch at best, and if you had actually played MW4 for any length, or MW:LL, you never would have posted that.

[CCC Dober]

The thread kinda reminds me of another discussion. My take is that stock SRMs are unguided and must remain that way because they offer one critical advantage: SRMs are among the few missile systems that are immune to electronic warfare as there is no guidance system to fool. MW4 went a step further and granted said unguided missiles immunity against all kinds of AMS systems. In short: there was no way to fool or intercept them. Furthermore, they did not require active radar, which is an advantage when stealth is required. As a result, there was no warning of incoming SRM fire. All of the advantages would be gone if SRMs were suddenly to receive guidance. This is where improved warheads and launcher upgrades add functionality to balance that out.

[Ragz]

Look in case you guys didnt know.... Srm is,.. (i could be wrong,..) "SHORT range missle" theres a context clue in there somewhere.
You kind of use them like a shot gun. If you can't hit a medium mech and larger with a short range weapon, you may wanna learn to aim and torso twist better before using fancy weapons... Perhaps you should suggest a training range instead. If you want to do damage with a weapon that has lock, perhaps you'd be interested in lrms. Then you can keep a gap between you and the target, and still hit them since there is an implied inablility to aim. Why do people want to break the game already.

[Rodney28021]

In TT rules, the LRM damage is rolled on the chart and then take the answer and break it up into groups of 5 damage, roll location for each group. SRMs damage is rolled on the chart and then take the answer and roll location for each missile hit. The dumbfired Rockets and MRMs have a different chart or shifted results down 2 to consult for missiles hit and that is more severe in number of hits. If you have Artemis or NARC locked missiles you shift the results up 2 on the LRM / SRM damage chart. SRMs and LRMs are not Dumbfired missiles, they just have cheap and limited guidance system. Streaks are maybe the best guided missiles but maybe it is the launcher that make the determination of how many will hit and not launch if 1 missile might miss.

If i played TT again, i would hope to find a spreadsheet or program that i could use to automate all the TT game calculations.

If there are Rockets and MRMs in the game, they should be the ones that fly in a straightish line. LRMs and SRMs should be able to course correct some what. Artemis, Streak or NARC locked missiles should be the equivialent of laser guided missiles. But there should NOT be missiles that you can fire from 180degrees off target and still hit.

Edited by Rodney28021, 07 August 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[CCC Dober]

I'll maintain that stock SRMs are dumb fire missiles. Launcher and warhead upgrades may very well add guidance for a price, but it is important to make that distinction for the reasons mentioned before. In short: pay for SRM upgrades/guidance and stop being cheap.

[Thorn Hallis]

Anyone looked at the date of the topic? Anyone?

[Strum Wealh]

CCC Dober, on 08 August 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

I'll maintain that stock SRMs are dumb fire missiles. Launcher and warhead upgrades may very well add guidance for a price, but it is important to make that distinction for the reasons mentioned before. In short: pay for SRM upgrades/guidance and stop being cheap.

However...

Quote

Dead-Fire Missiles were prototype weapons developed by House Kurita to offset the increasing cost of military hardware. To reduce cost, the guidance systems of standard long range and short range missiles were removed and replaced with larger warheads.

The dead-fire missiles, the predecessor to the likewise-unguided MRMs, were an alternate munition type for SRM (and LRM) launchers created by removing the guidance system from standard SRMs (in exchange for an additional point of damage per missile, such that a full flight of dead-fire SRMs from a SRM-6 launcher would deliver 18 units of damage (3 damage per missile times 6 missiles) rather than the usual 12 units of damage) - which, in turn, indicates that standard SRMs have a guidance system to remove in the first place.

As stated in my previous post, not only are standard SRMs normally guided, but a number of the alternate munition types are specifically made to replace the standard guidance package with more specialized guidance packages.

The niche of completely-unguided missile-type weapons is then filled by MRMs and Rocket Launchers - that is a large part of their respective raisons d'etre.

Also, it should be noted that, canonically, only Arrow IV Artillery missiles, Thunder LRMs, flares, Swarm LRMs, Swarm-I LRMs, and Mech Mortar shells are immune to AMS; all other LRMs (including dead-fire rounds), SRMs (including dead-fire rounds), MRMs, rockets, and Narc pods should still trigger, and be affected by, AMS.

So, no - asking that SRMs be granted both the guidance ability and vulnerability to AMS that they (canonically) should have to begin with isn't "being cheap".

Thorn Hallis, on 08 August 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

Anyone looked at the date of the topic? Anyone?

Yes; why would any reasonable person resurrect a ~9-month-old thread just to call someone out?

OTOH, it shows that at least some of the new people are capable of using the search feature and/or a search engine to look into past postings... which, of course, only makes those who, due to laziness and/or lack of technical proficiency, can not or will not do so look even worse.

[Bdiddytampa]

TheForce, on 07 November 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

In PnP didn't all missiles in one salvo hit the same area? So even if we get rid of pinpoint accuracy in MWO, SRM's without lock are going to hit multiple areas rather than one area like PnP.

If my understanding of PnP is correct, I want SRM's to lock on, roll for damage, and all damage to one spot. For streaks, lock on, and all damage goes to one spot.

but thats completely unrealistic and defeats the purpose of the weapon

[Phii Phy Pho Phum]

[John Kirt]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 08 November 2011 - 09:09 AM, said:

Way I see it, standard SRMs should fly in a semi-straight line from your mech to your reticule with a little dispersion (cause they're missiles). No curving to track a target, no semi-guided ****, this is MechWarrior and these are SRMS.

Perfectly agree. Piloting a Mech must require some skill, as it need some skill to use your weapons effectively.

Next time they will ask magic "I Win" button to auto-track lasers and launch a guided-auto-tracking-missiles to target..

Edited by John Kirt, 08 August 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[CCC Dober]

@Strum
Flawed argument. Not all SRMs are made alike with several variations in terms of warheads and launcher upgrades available. Generalizations FTL.

[Gremlich Johns]

I LOVE dumbfire! Just lead, spray, repeat....