28 replies to this topic

[ShinigamiRin]

Like most players here, i was eagerly anticipating this patch, in hopes that the ongoing missile problem (lurmageddon >>>> nerfed out of the game) would find a more settled, and more usable, state of resolution. While i understand that this problem is apparently irregular in that it proved difficult to determine exactly WHAT the problem was, in coding terms, the current state of missiles, more specifically lrms, as virtually a waste of tonnage, would seem to encourage a speedy resolution, as was the case when they were vastly overpowered. Sadly this does not seem to be the case as of this patch, which leaves this highly excellent and enjoyable game noticeably unbalanced. With no lrm damage to worry about, ac20's and all other ballistics, as well as ppc boats are literally having a field day.

All I'm trying to say i guess is that we desperately need a more viable fix for missiles SOON and i think we were all hoping it would be today. At the very least bump the damage values by 25-50% of where they are at the moment, since most of us will agree that as-is they are laughable. My preferred solution of course is to simply roll back all missile changes to exactly what they were PRE LURMAGEDDON, when they were functioning more or less perfectly aside from the matter of light mechs, which, lets be honest, you cant hit/damage them with anything else anyway, so whats the big deal if you cant hack off their legs with lrms.

Sorry, long post, but my trebuchets are sitting in my mechbay rusting. Make the sad pandas happy please! I promise i'll buy more mechbays and camos!

In closing, I remain,
Without Missiles >.<

[Peter von Danzig]

/irony

Get rid off your missiles. Get yourself a Highlander, put a Gauss and ER PPC in it an jump.
There is no need for missiles no more...

/irony off

Edited by Peter von Danzig, 02 April 2013 - 01:42 PM.

[WardenWolf]

I too would like missiles fixed. I would prefer they remove splash damage entirely, and just return missiles to their previous damage levels (or heck, even just the same level they are in canon).

[Garrath]

Maybe little statues on your dash are more important than an entire class of weapons being unusable?

Would be nice to see some official commentary on when they'll be viable again. Then again, they did say missiles have been brought down to where the devs AND the community want them. So perhaps only 2/3 of battletechs weapons in play is by their design. I'd hope not though.

[HammerSwarm]

thanks for making this your first post.

I too noticed this as the first omission. I was shocked that they again bumped back the hero mech repainting. I kept reading and noticed that they didn't pay a nod to missiles or host state rewind for ballistic type weapons. It was extremely disappointing that they didn't fix this.

I'd also love to see another monthly creative update.

Fix missiles and Fix the netcode, then build community warfare.

[Deathlike]

HammerSwarm, on 02 April 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

I too noticed this as the first omission. I was shocked that they again bumped back the hero mech repainting. I kept reading and noticed that they didn't pay a nod to missiles or host state rewind for ballistic type weapons. It was extremely disappointing that they didn't fix this.

They explicitly said in the patch notes that they hadn't fixed it yet. It's in the first few lines mentioned.


Anyways, to the OP. Please read the hotfix thread when they initially deployed it. Whatever they found pretty much guarantees they wouldn't be able to address it in a future patch properly.

If you want an actual ETA, it'll probably take a month or so, given that they have mentioned in a previous Ask the Devs section about ECM and balance, that it will take a month to balance. That doesn't even begin to factor in how they have to address missiles in general.

[John MatriX82]

Garrath, on 02 April 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

So perhaps only 2/3 of battletechs weapons in play is by their design. I'd hope not though.

thanks to the missile nerf I'm seeing more jenners, or other mechs that before were totally a waste of mechbay space or less used (HBK 4P now shines). An experienced Jenner driver now edges over a Raven 3L, the latter is still a an issue when present in numbers, but mostly for the nobrain streaks and the damn ECM.

Cents A with 3xSRM6 still hurt (you run short of ammo), splatpults are less effective but to an extent, my STK 3F with 4 SRM4 still pulls out often more than 800 dmg per match.. and quite frankly when I see a lrm40/50 salvo I still need to avoid it, you can't tank it unless you're new/fresh and you are rushing the launcher under 180m.


The problem with LRMs is boating them. Just make that if a mech has 15 tubes, it can mount a single LRM15 at maximum or a 10+5 or a 5+5+5 if there are 2/3 hardpoints in that section. No more Stalkers with dual LRM20 and dual LRM15 (only the STK 4N could go for a dual LRM 20 and dual LRM5) and such.. only mechs with wide launcher tubes availability would be able to be effective with a slight bump to the actual damage of the LRMs..


The same for SRMs there's need of a slight bump damage. Let's leave the devs ballast out splash damage bugs and we'll see.

I do not dislike these "ballast shifts" they force you to rethink your builds or not to underestimate certain variants that before you'd scrapped.. right today I've just re-bought a CDA-2A..

[Aim64C]

The reason why they can't balance missiles is due to their current behavior. Specifically - they simply chase you (which no real missile does, because it's stupid).

Simple game programming has the missile point at its target and apply a constant velocity toward it with restrictions on turning radius.

In most games, it's simply a quaint product of hollywood and poor game research. The effect is mostly graphical as the missile "works."

When you get into games like MWO, however, where you have such a wide range of armors, speeds, and sizes; this simplistic missile behavior makes missile weapons impossible to balance. If you increase the homing characteristics to allow a salvo of missiles to hit a maneuvering light mech - you make a weapon that busts lights open like a tin can (LRM 20). Otherwise - it's completely useless above a certain speed. Similarly - by increasing the homing characteristics, you make it next to a sure-fire hit on the CT of an assault. You can reduce the damage of each missile to make it not auto-core Assaults, increase the missile cluster size to reduce the concentrated ray of death heading for a light mech...... but what about medium and heavy mechs that are now unable to out-maneuver and getting ripped to shreds by single salvos? Reducing the damage further makes them largely useless against assaults, while tightening spread makes them absolutely destroy lights.

Unless you decide that lights should arbitrarily be immune to LRMs because they move so fast - but then you get quicker mediums and even some heavies that can simply dance through the rain of missiles based on technology 600 years in the future.

The only way to resolve it is with realistic missile behavior - proportional navigation that attempts to lead and intercept the target. The reason swarms of missiles are used in battletech (rather than one or two large missiles) is because of the maneuverability of battlemechs (which, realistically speaking, would be able to make very sharp lateral adjustments - such as side-stepping/lunging) and their complex geometry (which makes resolving a stable center of mass difficult). Thus - the missiles guide close to the target and then scatter to compensate for last-second evasions by the pilot.

But I was hoping that they would do something to make missiles... you know... marginally useful. Armor values are doubled in this game - so canon LRM values would be 2.0 damage/missile (it was at 1.8 before the splash and hotfix fiasco that reduced it to 0.7). Coupled with travel time and ECM - the only way they are "useful" is that people have gotten so used to them not being present in the game that they commit to behavior that they would not have a month ago.

When you run into people who haven't lost their LRM counter edge - they're pretty useless.

I'll empty 4 tons of missiles from my C4 and do less damage on the whole than my Jenner Foxtrot with 6 medium lasers.

And the laser damage is pinpoint.

And that's with at least half of those salvos being swallowed by the enemy because they've forgotten LRMs exist (and why shouldn't they?)

[Reptilizer]

+1

The nerf was announced as a temporary hotfix. We were asked for feedback how the adjustments "feel". We gave feedback. Nothing happened.
Me = sad panda...

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

No ECM/BAP changes. No missile changes, despite being promised that one. But hey, we got that new hero variant at the start of the month, that's important, right?

[Ralgas]

artemis got a buff/bug fix (better los detection), and splash dmg didn't go altogether

[Royalewithcheese]

I was hoping for a missile fix as well, but it's important to remember that things take time and that they're probably quite hesitant to unbalance missiles again.

[Reptilizer]

Royalewithcheese, on 03 April 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

I was hoping for a missile fix as well, but it's important to remember that things take time and that they're probably quite hesitant to unbalance missiles again.

Unbalance is not rebalance. As is, nobody is using LRMs except for flavor. Time to get the pendulum moving again.
They put us off last week, wanting some feedback first. They got it, they did nothing.

Well, ok, they introduced a ton of bugs in the last patch of course so "nothing" is somwhat unfair...

Edited by Reptilizer, 03 April 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[Aim64C]

Royalewithcheese, on 03 April 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

I was hoping for a missile fix as well, but it's important to remember that things take time and that they're probably quite hesitant to unbalance missiles again.

Perhaps it is because I have not seen the 'mechanics' of how the game works that leaves me confused...

but all of the patches PGI has released for this game amount to a single day of trial, error, and troubleshooting with some of my old C&C mods back when I was doing it with notepad and editing the ini files that were parsed into the executable at launch.

I mean... I just don't understand what the big deal is about 'adding weapons' and other such things. I've done that stuff under several different engines in less than about 30 minutes (once you have the resources to add - though if you're just re-scripting an existing resource...). If you wanted to go in and change a bunch of strings hidden in archaic ways that were never intended to be edited - then it might take another 30 minutes. So, an hour.

Changing LRM damage values and splash? Unless they have some absolutely ***-backwards system, it sould be as simple as "Edit, Ctrl+F "Long Range Missile," adjust values to taste, DONE."

Oh - close out and save.

Perhaps they forgot that last step.

Okay - fine - maybe you have to adjust the damage values for each launcher... but it's not some witchcraft that requires a voodoo master. If that is what is actually required, someone needs to be fired and they need to put someone in charge who has got a clue.

I mean... I am just continually boggled by all of the effort these guys seem to go through for so little effect. Perhaps they are honestly working on this thing... but if that's the case, they need to sit down with a CryEngine for Dummies book, take a few courses, or just find better employees - something to improve the yield for their efforts...

I mean... for God's sake... mod teams composed of five people with full-time jobs accomplish more in six months than PGI has accomplished in the same time with a team of 50 and their full time job is making a game. Is there just that much going on behind the scenes that is awaiting some paradigm shifting update... or what?

[Ralgas]

Aim64C, on 03 April 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

I mean... for God's sake... mod teams composed of five people with full-time jobs accomplish more in six months than PGI has accomplished in the same time with a team of 50 and their full time job is making a game. Is there just that much going on behind the scenes that is awaiting some paradigm shifting update... or what?

given how much we are missing and they have now mentioned a us summer full release, probably.......

[Marius Malthus]

when i read that it was a temporary fix, first thing that came to my mind was...... temporary like collisions ?

so im guessing its gonna be some months until they roll back the srm/lrm nerf

[Royalewithcheese]

Aim64C, on 03 April 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Perhaps it is because I have not seen the 'mechanics' of how the game works that leaves me confused...

but all of the patches PGI has released for this game amount to a single day of trial, error, and troubleshooting with some of my old C&C mods back when I was doing it with notepad and editing the ini files that were parsed into the executable at launch.

I mean... I just don't understand what the big deal is about 'adding weapons' and other such things. I've done that stuff under several different engines in less than about 30 minutes (once you have the resources to add - though if you're just re-scripting an existing resource...). If you wanted to go in and change a bunch of strings hidden in archaic ways that were never intended to be edited - then it might take another 30 minutes. So, an hour.

Changing LRM damage values and splash? Unless they have some absolutely ***-backwards system, it sould be as simple as "Edit, Ctrl+F "Long Range Missile," adjust values to taste, DONE."

Oh - close out and save.

Perhaps they forgot that last step.

Okay - fine - maybe you have to adjust the damage values for each launcher... but it's not some witchcraft that requires a voodoo master. If that is what is actually required, someone needs to be fired and they need to put someone in charge who has got a clue.

I mean... I am just continually boggled by all of the effort these guys seem to go through for so little effect. Perhaps they are honestly working on this thing... but if that's the case, they need to sit down with a CryEngine for Dummies book, take a few courses, or just find better employees - something to improve the yield for their efforts...

I mean... for God's sake... mod teams composed of five people with full-time jobs accomplish more in six months than PGI has accomplished in the same time with a team of 50 and their full time job is making a game. Is there just that much going on behind the scenes that is awaiting some paradigm shifting update... or what?

Part of the issue is that the trajectory is too tight, so if they remove splash LRMs will just drill the CT. I suspect that another part of the issue is that after unbalancing missiles twice in one week they want to make sure they don't do it again.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 05 April 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

I was also sad and disapointed, I was hoping for some HSR (unannounced, just hoping) for ballistics and/or missiles, and the fix to missile spread and damage. I don't really see missiles anymore, even large boats of them are uncommon (splats and lololrm-60+ mechs).

Edited by ICEFANG13, 05 April 2013 - 05:55 PM.

[General Taskeen]

Well PGI shot themselves in the foot with how they implemented missiles in the first place, and the players suffer because of it. They're probably re-thinking how to re-implement them.

[Sybreed]

General Taskeen, on 05 April 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Well PGI shot themselves in the foot with how they implemented missiles in the first place, and the players suffer because of it. They're probably re-thinking how to re-implement them.

I'm curious, how would you implement them?