65 replies to this topic

[OP CODE]

As far as I remember... Light mechs never carried heavy weaponry on previous mechwarrior games. Now we can see little cans with legs armed with PPCs and Large lasers. What's next? A Commando with 3 Arrow IV missile systems?
A light mech using a heavy weapon system should become a walking oven. How can a small chassis disipate such amount of heat?
Last game i was using a medium mech and i was killed by a small mech. The little one was using twin medium lasers, and fired a lot without overheating. Also he was so fast and so laggy that hitting him was impossible. After killing me he took down an Atlas. WTF???
On previous Mechwarrior titles it was forbidden for a light mech to approach to an assault mech like the Atlas. Surely we all did this a lot of times, but as soon as the assault landed a shot on your mech it was game over.
Light mechs were always used for scouting, fast taking of strategyc points and support. Right now it seems that they have acquired the assault role.
I think light mechs should be reworked and rebalnced to fit their original role.

[ego1607]

So, what should lights do if they were too fragile to even run past a heavy mech? I agree that being molested to death in an atlas is just ridiculous, but if you nerf lights so much that they are good only at runing away from stuff, they'll be broken and noone will be using them.

[blinkin]

OP CODE, on 03 April 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

As far as I remember... Light mechs never carried heavy weaponry on previous mechwarrior games. Now we can see little cans with legs armed with PPCs and Large lasers. What's next? A Commando with 3 Arrow IV missile systems?
A light mech using a heavy weapon system should become a walking oven. How can a small chassis disipate such amount of heat?
Last game i was using a medium mech and i was killed by a small mech. The little one was using twin medium lasers, and fired a lot without overheating. Also he was so fast and so laggy that hitting him was impossible. After killing me he took down an Atlas. WTF???
On previous Mechwarrior titles it was forbidden for a light mech to approach to an assault mech like the Atlas. Surely we all did this a lot of times, but as soon as the assault landed a shot on your mech it was game over.
Light mechs were always used for scouting, fast taking of strategyc points and support. Right now it seems that they have acquired the assault role.
I think light mechs should be reworked and rebalnced to fit their original role.

it doesn't dissapate very quickly. i have an ERPPC jenner that i run as a primary. the reason why it works is because i use hit and run tactics. if i try to lean on my ERPPC in an extended fight (usually against another light mech) after about 4 or 5 shots i shut down, NOT counting any other weapons. in most cases i top out my heat scale after about 2 or 3 shots and am forced to wait several seconds for my heat to drop to reasonable levels.

when fighting larger mechs i generally fire my ERPPC about once every 10 seconds because of the nature of the combat.

as far as most of the other stuff light mechs have bugs and of course the bugs need to be fixed. lag shield has plagued the game since before i started just a few weeks into closed beta.

even in TT a well placed light mech can make short work of an assault. even the atlas only has 20 rear torso armor on each section (standard). a fast light mech can readily get into that rear arc and severely hurt heavy or assault mechs. in fact i did just that in the last table top game i played.

Edited by blinkin, 03 April 2013 - 07:11 PM.

[RoboPatton]

I agree. The worst offender is the Raven 3L, which at this point acts nothing like a Raven should. Instead of being a recon platform, its a fast gun-boat. The problem there comes down to it having way too many hard points, and ECM being stupid broken.

I actually stopped using my 3L, because I felt dirty...

[blinkin]

RoboPatton, on 03 April 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

I agree. The worst offender is the Raven 3L, which at this point acts nothing like a Raven should. Instead of being a recon platform, its a fast gun-boat. The problem there comes down to it having way too many hard points, and ECM being stupid broken.

I actually stopped using my 3L, because I felt dirty...

kind of the same reason i avoid streaks. i was finally convinced to use a couple on one of my jenner builds, but i have yet to convince myself to actually use it. luckily it is the jenner variant that i already have plenty of xp to completely train up.

[moof]

RoboPatton, on 03 April 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

I agree. The worst offender is the Raven 3L, which at this point acts nothing like a Raven should. Instead of being a recon platform, its a fast gun-boat. The problem there comes down to it having way too many hard points, and ECM being stupid broken.

I actually stopped using my 3L, because I felt dirty...

agreed. This raven is the friggan bane of light mechs... it's such a hard counter to any light mech build at this point it's really unreasonable.

Edited by moof, 03 April 2013 - 09:31 PM.

[B0oN]

Gimme collisions back already.
My Jenner wants to make you walk into each other and fall down to the ground oh ever so resoundingly ... Gnihi

[Irvine]

Running lights along with Heavy/Assaults I've been on both sides of the coin. Use arm mounted lasers, REVERSE, and large caliber ballistics to counter lights. AC20(Cat/Jager) are excellent anti lights. AIM FOR LEGS.


Host state rewind for ballistics will case lights to die in droves. Maybe the netcode will be good enough then for this ridiculous 150kph speedcap to disappear.

Edited by Irvine, 03 April 2013 - 09:38 PM.

[saintchuck]

Started out in Ravens and had equal success with all of them. Now running heavies and assaults and have no problems killing them. Get 2 or 3 together or get FF'd by ***** teammates is frustrating as heck but your claiming that 3Ls are somehow overpowered doesn't jibe with my personal experience.

[blinkin]

saintchuck, on 04 April 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

Started out in Ravens and had equal success with all of them. Now running heavies and assaults and have no problems killing them. Get 2 or 3 together or get FF'd by ***** teammates is frustrating as heck but your claiming that 3Ls are somehow overpowered doesn't jibe with my personal experience.

are you mounting streaks or ECM on said raven (streaks are the primary concern)? have you tried running other light mechs like the jenner or spider? face down a streak 3L in a jenner or spider then come back and tell us everything is hunkydory.

heavy and assault mechs are not the primary prey. the 3L devours other light mechs. you are beating ravens in heavy mechs because they are the tool of choice for the no skill morons who want to pad their stats. any competent pilot in a 3L would devour assault mechs too.

Edited by blinkin, 04 April 2013 - 12:52 AM.

[DemonRaziel]

OP CODE, on 03 April 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Last game i was using a medium mech and i was killed by a small mech. The little one was using twin medium lasers, and fired a lot without overheating. Also he was so fast and so laggy that hitting him was impossible. After killing me he took down an Atlas. WTF???

You know, it could have been just a very poor Atlas pilot. Or his 'Mech might have already been in a bad shape. Getting killed by a light 'Mech equipped with 2 MLs before you are able to finish him off is... kinda pathetic, I guess. Unless you are sporting an LRM/SSRM boat and he's managed to close in on you with his ECM thus making you harmless.

And really... 2 MLs do not generate enough heat to justify any case of not overheating. Spider 5V with 10 internal double heatsinks has a heat threshold of 50. Disregarding heat dissipation this allows him to fire the medium lasers 6 times without overheating. Adding heat dissipation into the equation he can virtually fire his lasers till kingdom come. You really think this is a problem?

[Mypa333]

OP CODE, on 03 April 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

As far as I remember... Light mechs never carried heavy weaponry on previous mechwarrior games. Now we can see little cans with legs armed with PPCs and Large lasers. What's next? A Commando with 3 Arrow IV missile systems?
A light mech using a heavy weapon system should become a walking oven. How can a small chassis disipate such amount of heat?
Last game i was using a medium mech and i was killed by a small mech. The little one was using twin medium lasers, and fired a lot without overheating. Also he was so fast and so laggy that hitting him was impossible. After killing me he took down an Atlas. WTF???
On previous Mechwarrior titles it was forbidden for a light mech to approach to an assault mech like the Atlas. Surely we all did this a lot of times, but as soon as the assault landed a shot on your mech it was game over.
Light mechs were always used for scouting, fast taking of strategyc points and support. Right now it seems that they have acquired the assault role.
I think light mechs should be reworked and rebalnced to fit their original role.

You're talking about PPCs and LLs on lights as if they can mount 3 or 4 at one time without getting their armor/engine downgraded. You have to be an Idjiat to put 3 LLs on a spider for example, because you'll have to get a very tiny engine and to also downgrade your armor, if it would be possible even give up an arm to have more tonnage. You wouldn't have where to put HS or DHS because of the limited number of slots.

I'm running a spider 5D with one ER PPC. I get few shots per minut because I would overheat very, very fast.

If you would have ran into an Atlas yourself, he would have killed you from lots of firepower. Now you ran in a little ol' mech that had 2 lasers and you are pissed because you couldn't handle him, although he was clearly packing less firepower than you.

These are the rules of the game. Lighter the mech, the faster it goes and the less firepower he has, heavier the mech, you go slower but you pack more firepower.

If you meet a light, WALK BACKWARDS, IN A STRAIGHT LINE UNTIL YOU GET A WALL TO PROTECT YOUR TORSO. Don't try to constantly keep aiming at him when he circles you. Aim for a point where he always shows up in his lil' circle, and kick the crap out of him, getting the legs first . I bet I've surprised lots of light pilots when i simply stopped my Spider and let them circle me, because after the 2 first shots in their legs, they usually ran like hell far away from me.

As a Spider mech pilot, I ALWAYS aim for the side torsos. That Atlas could have been packing an XL Engine or just got killed because of AMMO explosion.

Edited by Mypa333, 04 April 2013 - 05:33 AM.

[trrprrprr]

As a 2D mech player with 3x ssrm2's EMC enemys suck, ok i still dont have fully upgraded and have only 110km/h speed, but if i get in to fight with faster running light with emc im a damn useless dead meat, as he is always closer than 180meters and i cant even run away

They should make a new tool to have or mod (all small tool jammer) so some heavy/assault can carry arround and be able to jam the signal of radars/emc and other stuff

[Nincompoopery]

I don't know what the hell you guys are talking about. I DO take damage when running into other mechs. I have even died from "collision damage". Aside from that, if you nerf the hell out of lights, who is going to run them? Unless teams are tonnage capped, you're going to keep nerfing yourselves into all assault vs. assault maps.

[Mypa333]

trrprrprr, on 04 April 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

As a 2D mech player with 3x ssrm2's EMC enemys suck, ok i still dont have fully upgraded and have only 110km/h speed, but if i get in to fight with faster running light with emc im a damn useless dead meat, as he is always closer than 180meters and i cant even run away

They should make a new tool to have or mod (all small tool jammer) so some heavy/assault can carry arround and be able to jam the signal of radars/emc and other stuff

2Ds have ECM so equip one, get your ECM to counter and start firing the SSRMS.

The jammer thingy is the ECM itself , set on counter mode.

My thoughts would be that whenever a mech comes under 200m of another mech, his ECM should become useless.

Problem solved with ecm, streaks and DAMN Ravens 3L.


___________________________________
DAMN RAVENS 3L

[DemonRaziel]

Mypa333, on 04 April 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

My thoughts would be that whenever a mech comes under 200m of another mech, his ECM should become useless.

Problem solved with ecm, streaks and DAMN Ravens 3L.

That would actually allow for even more SSRM abuse, as now anyone could target even ECM-covered enemies.

[Mypa333]

DemonRaziel, on 04 April 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

That would actually allow for even more SSRM abuse, as now anyone could target even ECM-covered enemies.

I think the key is the range in which the enemy mech is discoverable. The SSRM single purpose was to counter fast light mechs. Get under 200 m close to a mech and you can be discovered.

Or use something else to encourage team strategy and get a triangulation sort of lock, in which you would need 2 or 3 mechs near the enemy ECM mech to get the lock on.

I would like to see Ravens 3L getting close for SSRM lock then getting killed by the same SSRM designed to get enemy light mechs, in the first place.

_________________
DAMN RAVENS 3L

Edited by Mypa333, 04 April 2013 - 08:02 AM.

[Syric Malvayis]

OP CODE, on 03 April 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

As far as I remember... Light mechs never carried heavy weaponry on previous mechwarrior games. Now we can see little cans with legs armed with PPCs and Large lasers. What's next? A Commando with 3 Arrow IV missile systems?

A light mech using a heavy weapon system should become a walking oven. How can a small chassis disipate such amount of heat?

Last game i was using a medium mech and i was killed by a small mech. The little one was using twin medium lasers, and fired a lot without overheating. Also he was so fast and so laggy that hitting him was impossible. After killing me he took down an Atlas. WTF???

On previous Mechwarrior titles it was forbidden for a light mech to approach to an assault mech like the Atlas. Surely we all did this a lot of times, but as soon as the assault landed a shot on your mech it was game over.

Light mechs were always used for scouting, fast taking of strategyc points and support. Right now it seems that they have acquired the assault role.

I think light mechs should be reworked and rebalnced to fit their original role.

You hit the nail on the head! THANK YOU!

I've played ALL the PC mech warrior titles (all the way back to the original one), and one thing ALWAYS seemed to stand out: if you're in a light mech, and you come across an assault/heavy mech: pray. It was (VERY) understood that getting into the cross hairs of an assault/heavy was asking for death/to be killed. Ahh...the glory days...Now let's fast forward to TODAY and THIS version of MW(O)....

I'm not trying to whine, boo-hoo, or really even compare this game to that; nor am I asking that lights be nerfed to the point where they are no enjoyable to play. However, what I am asking is for balance. I DO NOT think it is ok for a light mech to reign supremacy over multiple mech targets, especially when many of those targets happen to be med/heavy/assault mechs. The do it all too often with impunity, and that's what makes my blood boil. What's the point of being a heavy/assault mech then, and what role are they filling, if a light mech can do it faster, easier, and w/o any serious consequences? Where's the CHALLENGE come into play, if all you really need to do is equip ECM and get behind the mech that's heavier than you? I enjoy med/heavy/assults, and I DO NOT think it is ok for a light mech to out-last heavy/assult mechs ( like they do in their current developed state). I'm not saying they shouldn't sometimes (good piloting, skirmish style attacking, aiming, etc.), but when it's most of the time then you really have to stop, look over the data/feedback, and reconsider if certain elements of game play need to be adjusted, which is exactly what I'm hoping to accomplish through these posts/debate.

Now, I'm sure some of you will argue that it's my piloting skills, my mech build, or shooting skills. I disagree. I'm not the best, but I'm far from the worst. If you've faced me, or have been on my team, then I'm sure you've seen that I'm typically in the top 4 for most damage and/or kills/assists/etc, but ultimately this arguement or debate is neither here nor there because I don't expect you to take my word on it. Instead, I'd rather focus back on fact, and as it stands, I don't think many can really dispute that IT'S a FACT that LIGHT mechs really have some powerful advantages at this time, which gives them an unfair advantage over-all. Break it down:

- Jump jets
- Speed
- Weapon allocation & capacity
- ECM

Singled out, they're not really a big deal. Combine them all together, and you suddenly have a very capable killing machine that doesn't really have much to fear. Of course there is light vs. light, but when did it become perfectly acceptable to see light mechs killing heavy/assults w/ practical ease, and without any real sense of concern or wariness on behalf of the pilot? In my experience as a heavy/assult pilot, it's gotten so bad that I intentionally try to ALWAYS keep a wall/building/etc. to my back ....just so I can protect it against light mechs (which, by the way, usually come in pairs). And, just for the record, I do play with my team. It's rare that I go on a lone wolf safari hunt. That's just asking to be killed. Bottom-line: light mechs have clear distinctive differences which create unfair imbalances in the current version of MWO. How to fix it? A few have already offered some great ideas (like manual STREAK SRM firing on VISUAL targets within a certain radius of coverage...say 50-200m? Hell, even MACHINE GUNS get something vs. nothing...which is the case of ECM vs. STREAK SRM)! And no, I don' think Streak SRM boats should be able to just one shot a light mech! Again, I'm asking for some common sense here on this stuff. It's all about BALANCING things out, which is what BETA is all about, right?

Additionally, I'd like to say that I've spent a good amount of time playing a light mech. They are FUN! And, frankly they damn well should be! They make for a great support role, and that shouldn't be robbed from them! All I'm asking is for the DEVS, and the community, to consider supporting the idea that lights need some re-balancing, which goes back to my original post:

- Balance out ECM (via reduced functionality, a counter ECM tech option, or via some other means...), and

- Bring light mechs back into their original intended functionality that the MW universe intended them to be (right now, like OP CODE pointed out, "it seems that they (light mechs) have acquired the assault role."

Oh...and one more thing:

CYBRN4CR, on 03 April 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

Sorry OP. The devs have spoken in their command chair post. ECM will not be changed in how it functions relative to other weapons/equipment because that is how they intend ECM to be. Point blank. Trying to voice how you think ECM should work now will fall on deaf ears because the way you want it is not in line with their vision.

If you really want ECM to work the way you want it, then you go make a Mechwarrior game. You go to your bank, get out a loan, get a team together and start working on a competitive product. If you can't do that, then you either accept ECM as it is going to be in the command chair post and stay, or don't and leave and NEVER COME BACK because your vision is not wanted here.

Seriously? I had to re-read your post twice just to make sure I heard you right the first time. The immaturity, brashness, and absurdness of your comments doesn't even warrant a rational and serious response beyond this: we, the players (community) have made this game BECOME reality. How? Money. Our money to be exact. If it wasn't for the financial support of players like you (a founder member), me (also a founder member), and countless others then there would be no MWO. Do you know why MWO went through the type of development it did, vs. being made and released as a complete game? Because the major producers/distributors/powers in the gaming industry didn't want to take the financial risk for a "nitch" game like MWO. We may not think MW is a "nitch" game, but many do, and so there ya have it. We, the INVESTED players, have taken the RISK. If the game fails, then we lose our time and money. If the game succeeds, then we reap the benefit of playing a game we enjoy, and they make a very generous profit for developing the game and bringing it to fruition.

In closing, I'd like to thank each of you that has taken the time to offer their opinions, support, or constructive criticism on this debatable topic. Please keep it going!! If we show a vested interest into what we deem to be an over-balance of game play, then it'll ultimately draw the attention and support of the DEV TEAM!

Happy hunting (playing)!

Edited by Syric Malvayis, 04 April 2013 - 06:08 PM.

[Syric Malvayis]

Ralgas, on 03 April 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

Do you follow dev posts/patch notes?

*Knockdowns are coming back, but they had to upgrade several other systems 1st, collision detection being a big one. It is getting phased back in.

*Ecm has ppc/tag counters. I find a bucket with ppc/streak combo quite effective now but it's only going to get better with...

*netcode and host state rewind has significantly reduced light effectiveness, as stage 2 hsr will be the one affecting ppcs (weps with a projectile in terms of game mechanics) see above. Several other issues (raven hitboxes last patch?) have also been addressed

*And as always, teamwork & communication is op in a team based game!! find a 4man with viop and call it when your in poo poo..........

Just because it's not your version of balanced doesn't mean they aren't working on it

I read them sporatically and spontaneously, when I have the opportunity to do so, and I'm excited to hear Known-downs will return, even if it is EVENTUALLY! EXCELLENT NEWS! THANK YOU!

I'm really excited to see if the netcode and host state rewind helps! It would definitely go a long way on re-balacing the current stage of game play!

[Syric Malvayis]

A perfect example of ECM being over-powered just happened in a match I was in....(short version):

We're guarding the center of the map (conquest mode), and in general the fight is mostly balanced. I'm running a CAT w/ 2xLRM 15+ART w/ 2x M. lasers and 2xStreak SRM. They have missiles, we have missiles, and there are lasers and ballistics firing on both sides too. After 2-3minutes, guess what happens.....

....yep! A ECM light shows up. Does he stand still? Not really. Does my TEAM that is working together as a TEAM should try to take him out? Yep. Can we really hit him as he flies on by at 80-100+kph? Nope. Does he pilot his mech thru our med/heavy/assault mechs, and circle around us so he can't really be the target of lasers or ballistics? Yep.

And, do you know what happened shortly after? We were picked off and lost. I've seen this happen OVER AND OVER again. I've been on the winning side of the tactic, and on the losing side, and I'm telling you it ISN'T FUN ANYMORE!! Is that really how it should play out, again and again? An entire TEAM shouldn't be punished, screwed over, and out done by one damn piece of mech equipment, and that is exactly what ECM is permitting players to do.

Do you see a LASERS "shut-down?" NO, you don't.

Do you see a BALLISTIC "shut-down?" NO, you don't.

So why is ECM fair and perfectly acceptable in its current form? If just one light mech can run into a group of mechs, do zig-zags and circles (obviously using lag as an unsaid benefit to their tactic) around them to avoid being hit, and 'shut-down" ALL MISSILE lock opportunities that ALL enemy mechs within its ECM radius would otherwise have, then why even bother equiping missiles at all? Forget missiles. Their damage has been nerfed, and now you get PUNISHED for even trying to FIRE them?! And....this is considered acceptable and ok because...?

Before that light ECM showed up, things were about 50/50. After the light ECM mech showed up, it turned the tide of battle completely upside down - in the enemies favor.

When you have any ONE THING that can completely turn the tide of a battle, and removes even the ability to manually fire or attempt to counter, well then I call that an unfair imbalance that gives a team ONE TOO MANY ADVANTAGEOUS, and I really hope a DEV reads this thread!

P.S.

Here's some ideas:

- decrease the radius of effect
- make it so that it creates additional heat inside the mech using it
- put it on a timer, so that it can only be used/in effect for 30-60-120 seconds
- make it so it only affects a certain # of mechs
- make it random....it has a "X" % chance of locking a mech's firing attempt....

Edited by Syric Malvayis, 04 April 2013 - 08:30 PM.