102 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Deathlike, on 03 April 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

That's kinda selfish, in that you want buffs to other mechs but "screw you ideas if I don't get my way".

The proper approach to balance is to look at the issues objectively and go from there. I don't know how to buff the Spiders (especially the 5K) because I don't pilot them, but that doesn't mean I don't support buffing MGs because Spiders are crap in my world view. I want mechs to be competitive, but saying "if I won't get my fixes, you can't get your fixes" will never get balance changes seriously considered... for yours or mine.

I'm sorry, I thought having an opinion was naturally a selfish thing. Please, enlighten me as to where having my own opinion is not selfish?

He asked if I'd support it, I answered. I fail to see the problem?

[Deathlike]

Mister Blastman, on 03 April 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

I'm sorry, I thought having an opinion was naturally a selfish thing. Please, enlighten me as to where having my own opinion is not selfish?

He asked if I'd support it, I answered. I fail to see the problem?

It's true, an opinion is usually selfish. I meant towards that the context of "if you won't help me, I won't help you" is what it sounded like. It's fine to disagree, but at this point... I've got enough rage from the ECM command post to blow off.

[sC4r]

if 2x and 4x got some small buff like increase max engine i wouldnt mind

but the real problem is that 3l stands out too much... a bit too overpowered comapring to the other 2 variants so if it took some nerf (any kind) that could make the other ones a bit more desirable

[Flak Kannon]

Not sure I agree..

4x's are not bad when built correctly, for it's intended 'ROLE'.




How about this hard hitter...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0866f144726a126

[Tenzek]

They just need to be allowed to fit a bigger engine. They're way too slow for light mechs.

[Lykaon]

Stoicblitzer, on 03 April 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

the 3L needs a nerf not the other way around.

Jenner D doesn't?

4 energy hardpoints the Raven 3L has 3 so Jenner has superior energy hardpoints
2 missile hardpoints same as the Raven 3L
Jenner can mount a larger 300 engine so it's faster than a Raven 3L
Jenner gets Jumpjets the Raven 3L does not
Both are 35 tons so potential max armor values are the same.

So with this compareson the one thing that stands out is ECM.

The Raven 3L gets ECM the Jenner D does not.

Is it the Raven that needs a nerf or the ECM? if both the Jenner and Raven had access to ECM would you be even thinking about Raven 3Ls?

Probably not since nearly nobody would choose a Raven 3L over the Jenner D if both had ECM.

[Helsbane]

If the 2X and 4X had the same engine availability as the 3L, they wouldn't suck as bad. The slow Raven is the dead Raven....

[Damon Howe]

I run both the 2X and the 4X, and I can safely say they are very balanced mechs that can, in the right hands, be incredibly deadly (and if you're unlucky or stupid, as I have also been, they can REALLY suck).

The key is finding a build that both works well and you like. If you can manage heat well, the 2X is not a bad laser build if you do it right. If you're a damn good shot, you can make the 4X work easily enough. The trick is avoiding the other light mechs, which rip these two apart.

Generally speaking, they're very effective in their own right and a force not to be underestimated on the field, just like any other mech in good hands.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Don't know what y'all are complaining about. The 4X can mount an AC20 with ES, FF, and move 81 kph while having near maximum armor. Or you can go faster and mount an AC10. Yes you'll have trouble with a 3L, but that's more related to ECM+SSRMs being overpowered. Other fast mechs, well I can usually land an AC20 before they kill me and as a 4X I'm pretty much always ignored so that allows me to back stab pretty effectively.

The 2X... well I ran it as a half cat for a long time before ECM came to town. After that I used it with an SRM6 an ERLL and some MPL too if my memory serves.

[Tank]

They both work great for me, 4X with gauss rifle and jjs. And 2X with maximum speed and ELL. There is just nothing better for scout/support/capture roles for me.

[Redwo1f]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 03 April 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

The 2X... well I ran it as a half cat for a long time before ECM came to town. After that I used it with an SRM6 an ERLL and some MPL too if my memory serves.

That happens to be my 4x build.
My 2x has more laser punch.

Edited by Redwo1f, 03 April 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Xyph3r]

although my AC20-4X and my DualERPPC-2X already perform well in terms of harassing bigger Mechs, i wouldn't mind some minor tweaks for those Mech models

[Wolf Clearwater]

To address several posts; first, no one is crying. Second, just because there is A build that works for you, doesn't mean that the mech does not need a little buff.

[Buckminster]

My biggest issue with the 2X and 4X is that they don't offer much of a reason to *not* use the 3L.

The 2X gains a laser slot but loses a missile slot, is almost 20% slower, is short a module slot and has no ECM. So by all appreciable measures, the 2X is a waste.

The 4X at least has the benefit of ballistic slots and jump jets. Still 20% slower, shy a module slot and lacking ECM, but jump is a really nice benefit, and the ballistic slots are at least something different.

I'm not saying they can't be effective, but when compared to their 3L brother, there's only two real reasons to take them - you are trying to level up your 3L, or you like Ravens and are tired of being called cheesy.

[Aethos]

give both of them access to the xl295 and they would both become substantially more competitive.

btw the AC20 build is a 'just for kicks' build that would never suffice in any sort of 4 or 8 man. Can't carry enough ammo for what is now your only weapon.

I would play my 2X a lot more if it could fit a bigger engine in it. Until then I only play the 3L. Call it cheese. I dont care. So are Atlas DDC's, CTF poptarts, splatcats and dbl ac20 jagers, yet everyone plays them.

[FupDup]

Aethos, on 03 April 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

I would play my 2X a lot more if it could fit a bigger engine in it. Until then I only play the 3L. Call it cheese. I dont care. So are Atlas DDC's, CTF poptarts, splatcats and dbl ac20 jagers, yet everyone plays them.

I'm pretty much in the same boat, except for different reasons--my own reason for continuing to be a Cravener is that I hate getting streaked to death whenever I dare pull out my 2X or 4X (plus the 4X still needs viable lightweight ballistics to fill those slots with). To reduce the stigma a little bit, I try to avoid the stereotypical roflbrawler tactics and stick to hit-and-run/aggromagneting (people like to prioritize me over my team's Atlas, fine by me lol) unless the enemy is isolated or there's no way in heck I can escape (in that case I brawl it out). The 2LL + 2ML 2X can do some pretty decent if not great damage, but if you encounter an enemy light or get stuck in close quarters you're gonna have a bad time.

It's pretty much streak or be streaked, unfortunately. Auto-aiming weapons sometimes make me feel like a cruel b@stard, but mindless steamrolling isn't nearly as boring as getting mindlessly roflstomped match after match.


What also annoys me is that when I try to "do the right thing" and take silly builds like a 2 PPC Raven, I get dogpilled on and ruthlessly b*ttfucked--usually they even would leg me just to add insult to injury, despite the fact that the mech barely exceeded 100 kph.

The reason Ravens and other lights like to brawl is because all of the long-range weapons are too damn heavy to carry very many of without ripping out your engine. If we had Light PPCs, Light AC/2s, Clan LRMS and/or something else I'd be more than happy to stop being an ankle/back biter. Until then, it's Medium Lasers and SRMs all the way.

Edited by FupDup, 03 April 2013 - 06:43 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

3L - 245 engine max. other 2 ravens, 295 engines.

[aniviron]

Alistair Winter, on 03 April 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

This thread includes the typical flawed arguments usually brought up in a discussion about Ravens and other light mechs.

"The problem isn't that the Raven 2X, Raven 4X or other light mechs need a buff. It's the Raven 3L that needs to be nerfed."
This is obviously wrong. In a given Assault PUG match, you're not likely to see more than one light mech on each team, if that. In conquest, the number is somewhat higher, but ultimately, regardless of the game mode, light mechs just can't do as much damage as heavier mechs or get as many kills. And whatever their other functions (aka "But but light mechs are supposed to scout and spot targets and so much more"), the team usually does fine without them. If you get a Raven 4X on your team, you know he's not likely to be a huge help.

"The Raven 2X and 4X are fine, I do very well with them."
Well, then you're not representative of the majority of players. A select few players can do well with any mech, but most players don't do well with those Ravens. Saying that the majority of players in this game should "learn to play" isn't constructive. If a certain mech underperforms on average, it needs a buff.

I am going to print off this post and frame it, and hang it above my monitor. It's not just that it's true and applicable here (but it is, the 2/4x are slower than my aws-9m, which means something is horribly wrong with them) but it makes me so happy that I'm not the only one on this forum who is tired of the "Well *I* can do well in it" argument.

[Aethos]

Here is my viable 2X; RVN-2X

4 mpls, srm6.
x245

tweaked goes 124 kph which is slower than my 3L untweaked. this thing is great at group support, but I still never play it since I elited my 3L I generally play against highly skilled teams, and the 2X just cant provide what a 3L can.

And I run my 3L with TAG. like a real scout would.

and 2 MPL's because I love pulses.

Edited by Aethos, 03 April 2013 - 08:25 PM.

[Stoicblitzer]

Lykaon, on 03 April 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Jenner D doesn't?

4 energy hardpoints the Raven 3L has 3 so Jenner has superior energy hardpoints
2 missile hardpoints same as the Raven 3L
Jenner can mount a larger 300 engine so it's faster than a Raven 3L
Jenner gets Jumpjets the Raven 3L does not
Both are 35 tons so potential max armor values are the same.

So with this compareson the one thing that stands out is ECM.

The Raven 3L gets ECM the Jenner D does not.

Is it the Raven that needs a nerf or the ECM? if both the Jenner and Raven had access to ECM would you be even thinking about Raven 3Ls?

Probably not since nearly nobody would choose a Raven 3L over the Jenner D if both had ECM.

All true. However, there is something wrong with the Jenner hitboxes. It seems too easy to core it CT and possibly firing at it's rear CT causes hit on the front CT. The raven just has more survivability because the hitboxes are still messed up but in a good way (for raven pilots). Also, it's just easier to fire-and-forget the SSRMs despite them being slightly nerfed. Skill being equal, I still think a 3L wins 1v1 vs the Jenner even the laserboat Jenner.