99 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

You know what ****** me off? When my team puts in the effort to scout the map and your team is all bunched up in a little ball. When your entire team decides to be so horribly out of position that a single mech can cap your base before one of you can get back. When not one of your teammates has taken even a second to scout the alternate path to your base.

When you have such bad map awareness that a single 60 kph atlas can hit your base before you even react.

If you want to stop the cap, put in half the effort my team did. I'm in a 100 ton atlas and when my team refuses to scout, you know what I do? Steiner scout lance time. I don't have to go far, I just have to keep my eyes open on the other attack avenue for a little bit.

Base capping is not magic guys. It happens when the other team completely and utterly fails to do what should be automatic: Scouting, and positioning smartly.

You have no one to blame but yourself when you get capped.

[Elder Thorn]

Jman5, on 03 April 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

You know what ****** me off? When my team puts in the effort to scout the map and your team is all bunched up in a little ball. When your entire team decides to be so horribly out of position that a single mech can cap your base before one of you can get back. When not one of your teammates has taken even a second to scout the alternate path to your base.

When you have such bad map awareness that a single 60 kph atlas can hit your base before you even react.

If you want to stop the cap, put in half the effort my team did. I'm in a 100 ton atlas and when my team refuses to scout, you know what I do? Steiner scout lance time. I don't have to go far, I just have to keep my eyes open on the other attack avenue for a little bit.

Base capping is not magic guys. It happens when the other team completely and utterly fails to do what should be automatic: Scouting, and positioning smartly.

You have no one to blame but yourself when you get capped.

oh, really?
How many times have you seen a PUG team react when you wrote "enemy is in lower city" when your team was in the upper city? (or vice versa)
I have tried it a few times, you know what happened?
I turned back to defent, allone of course, because everyone else decided that the cap race will be more fun, and then i am the ***** because i can't hold off 8 guys and then it's a caprace 7 vs 8 and we lose.
I've written it before: the problem is for PUG matches. If you are in a group, well. that's something completly different.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

NightFallsOnU, on 03 April 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Yes I know that some have become aggro'ed on base caps from back in Close beta but, This game needs base caps in most game modes and this video is a great example of why....
















As you can see A one legged Commando Vs a weaponless Jagermech.... without base caps I would of had two options run up and hug the commando and die OR hide like a coward

Edit for spelling

And what, save your precious KDR that has absolutely no bearing on anything?

At that point the Jager could run out of bounds and kill himself, or let the commando have the kill, give money and credit where money and credit is due, and move on.

Base Capping and running off to hide does nothing for the current economic system in game, there's no real rewards for basecapping [they should reward full salvage to the winning team frankly.] And to just quick-cap steals potential c-bills away from fighting players for a win that, at the end of the day means nothing.

MWO isn't about the KDR, and it's not about winning or loosing, it's about making the most cash possible, and the best way to do that, is killing mechs given the current economic climate.

Winning by a cap and killing all enemy mechs should net you the same ammount of money... simple as that, then this won't even be a discussion.

[Hotthedd]

Viper69, on 03 April 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

What I have noticed happening a lot now is this.

Not so much bases being capped first finishing the game. But bases being almost capped, then leave the cap and go fight. If things start to go bad they can get back and finish the cap fast.

This is a good strategy and valid tactic.

[Viper69]

Hotthedd, on 03 April 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

This is a good strategy and valid tactic.

I know its a smart one too. It gives you a fast fall back and still keeps the fighting hot.

[Hotthedd]

NightFallsOnU, on 03 April 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

Yeah this is the map that capwarrior stuff happens alot... one team goes upper another goes lower and then no one wants to back up and fight just sit and cap.... I haven't had it happen to me much or ever that i can think of on other maps

It happens quite a bit on Caustic, too.

[Eternal Hunter]

Hotthedd, on 03 April 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

It happens quite a bit on Caustic, too.

Yeah, but it's silly. Pugs seems to evade each other in matches a lot more then before.
That is, they lately seems scared to engage. I'm not talking about supporting the suicide runner that goes far into enemy territory, and qq's when he get torn to bits by focus fire, but just regular fighting.

I don't mind a sniping match, tough i prefer brawling, but when i die with a couple team mates, and then see lot of mechs 1-2k away from the action taking bad potshots at the enemy it makes me sigh. Of course they die quickly afterwards,getting taken down one by one with focus fire.

[Noobzorz]

I really don't have a problem with base caps. Don't pilot a slow brawler to the middle of nowhere. Seriously, it's an adversarial game where the goal is to win. Playing the objective means defending too.

[Ngamok]

Jman5, on 03 April 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

You know what ****** me off? When my team puts in the effort to scout the map and your team is all bunched up in a little ball. When your entire team decides to be so horribly out of position that a single mech can cap your base before one of you can get back. When not one of your teammates has taken even a second to scout the alternate path to your base.

When you have such bad map awareness that a single 60 kph atlas can hit your base before you even react.

If you want to stop the cap, put in half the effort my team did. I'm in a 100 ton atlas and when my team refuses to scout, you know what I do? Steiner scout lance time. I don't have to go far, I just have to keep my eyes open on the other attack avenue for a little bit.

Base capping is not magic guys. It happens when the other team completely and utterly fails to do what should be automatic: Scouting, and positioning smartly.

You have no one to blame but yourself when you get capped.

I heard you can get your Atlas from D5 / E5 to base in time with a Light Mech and cap accelerator. Ooops, on Tourmaline.

Edited by Ngamok, 03 April 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[Noobzorz]

Jade Kitsune, on 03 April 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

And what, save your precious KDR that has absolutely no bearing on anything?

At that point the Jager could run out of bounds and kill himself, or let the commando have the kill, give money and credit where money and credit is due, and move on.

Base Capping and running off to hide does nothing for the current economic system in game, there's no real rewards for basecapping [they should reward full salvage to the winning team frankly.] And to just quick-cap steals potential c-bills away from fighting players for a win that, at the end of the day means nothing.

MWO isn't about the KDR, and it's not about winning or loosing, it's about making the most cash possible, and the best way to do that, is killing mechs given the current economic climate.

Winning by a cap and killing all enemy mechs should net you the same ammount of money... simple as that, then this won't even be a discussion.

Making the most cash possible? What the **** is this stupidity?

The point of an adversarial game is to win. PGI's role in this is to direct the various methods of winning. If you want to pick a big, slow *** mech that is loaded for bear, if you get beat by another 8 man pug team, too ******* bad.

The ONLY, and I mean THE ONLY TIME that capping is cheap or stupid is when you get matched against a four man line squad who peels around the center of the map to cap and rips your lights to shreds as they show up to defend, and that is really a fault with the match maker, not capping.

Ngamok, on 03 April 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

I heard you can get your Atlas from D5 / E5 to base in time with a Light Mech and cap accelerator. Ooops, on Tourmaline.

You shouldn't have had a giant clump of assault mechs off in a corner and this does absolutely nothing to rebut Jman's claim.

If your lights aren't doing their ******* job and you're playing BrawlerTrain Online, it's too ******* bad that you lost. It's like going for an early double expand in StarCraft 2 and then being upset that the other guy zealot proxied. Your cheesy "BRAWL ME PLZ" tactic is no better (actually, it's worse since it sucks and takes no coordination whatsoever).

Elder Thorn, on 03 April 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

oh, really?
How many times have you seen a PUG team react when you wrote "enemy is in lower city" when your team was in the upper city? (or vice versa)
I have tried it a few times, you know what happened?
I turned back to defent, allone of course, because everyone else decided that the cap race will be more fun, and then i am the ***** because i can't hold off 8 guys and then it's a caprace 7 vs 8 and we lose.
I've written it before: the problem is for PUG matches. If you are in a group, well. that's something completly different.

This also does nothing to rebut anything Jman said.

If your complaints about capping are complaints about the matchmaker, direct your rage elsewhere.

[Scromboid]

I was just reading in one of the Gray Death novels today where a mech ran into a DropShip and took it over, thus ending the battle. The Gray Death were winning the fighting, but tactically made a mistake when they allowed a few mechs past their perimeter and into the hold of a DropShip.

That's kinda what I think of while we're playing.

I know it's fun to blow up robots, but the goal of that particular match is to defend your base. You have to weigh the two and come up with a workable plan.

Last night, we had two Ravens rush our base. Scout Lance saw them running in and myself and another Heavy went back to defend. The match was 2 - 0 quick and our base was safe

[Appogee]

I'd still rather put up with this the 1 in every 10,000 times it happens, than the 1 in 5 games where a good battle is ''ruined'' by a bloody Spider which avoids the battle and caps the enemy base

[Noobzorz]

Scromboid, on 03 April 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

I was just reading in one of the Gray Death novels today where a mech ran into a DropShip and took it over, thus ending the battle. The Gray Death were winning the fighting, but tactically made a mistake when they allowed a few mechs past their perimeter and into the hold of a DropShip.

That's kinda what I think of while we're playing.

I know it's fun to blow up robots, but the goal of that particular match is to defend your base. You have to weigh the two and come up with a workable plan.

Last night, we had two Ravens rush our base. Scout Lance saw them running in and myself and another Heavy went back to defend. The match was 2 - 0 quick and our base was safe

Amen to this.

I have literally never had a problem with ninja caps. Not ever. Go back and defend. If you are in a bigass stalker that trots along at 43 kph and you are stuck in the middle of nowhere and your team was incapable of defending, well then you probably weren't going to win anyway.

It's like those guys screaming and crying for deathmatch. Well those ultra competitive dudes who are running captrains are doing so because they care a lot about winning, and they are going to find a way to do it in any environment. Do they imagine that these people will just become lost little puppies when there is no base to cap?

[Taemien]

Shumabot, on 03 April 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Or the game could just draw when no one has guns left.

Requires more coding, more patching, and more chances to break previous coding. Easier to tell the players to defend their bases.. oh wait they did that already. They also put in ECM and capture modules to facilitate capping. I think its pretty clear that capping bases is part of what MWO is.

If you're looking for a MechWarrior game where capping isn't the sole focus, go play http://www.mechlivinglegends.net

Its canceled in future production but has everything you all want. TDM, Clan Mechs, Tanks, ect. Go have some fun. Don't stick around with something you're obviously not having fun with. Thats like a paraplegic trying to win a three legged race.

[Noobzorz]

Appogee, on 03 April 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

I'd still rather put up with this the 1 in every 10,000 times it happens, than the 1 in 5 games where a good battle is ''ruined'' by a bloody Spider which avoids the battle and caps the enemy base

Option 1: None of your lights bothered to go back and defend. You deserve to lose.

Option 2: You had no lights and either lost the brawl (meaning you could spare a heavy or medium to go back and defend base), or you decided to place yourself horribly out of position, or you just decided that you didn't care that they were capping the base and carried on pew-pewing. You deserve to lose.

Option 3: Your lights went back and got annihilated by their cappers. You deserve to lose.

Option 4: You got ********** by a 4 man 3L lance that an uncoordinated team cannot possibly beat consistently. Blame the matchmaker.

[KhanCipher]

Scromboid, on 03 April 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

I was just reading in one of the Gray Death novels today where a mech ran into a DropShip and took it over, thus ending the battle. The Gray Death were winning the fighting, but tactically made a mistake when they allowed a few mechs past their perimeter and into the hold of a DropShip.

and... someone uses lore as their argument...

what happens in lore stays in lore, what happens in game should be balanced (which it isn't even close to it when it comes to capping)... but... with the crap rewards for capping, and with all the stuff to make capping easier... oh and the only thing that calculates your ELO score is your W/L record (instead of oh... how well you can shoot and hit stuff along your W/L record), no wonder why people hate capping in assault.

[Jman5]

Elder Thorn, on 03 April 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

oh, really?
How many times have you seen a PUG team react when you wrote "enemy is in lower city" when your team was in the upper city? (or vice versa)
I have tried it a few times, you know what happened?
I turned back to defent, allone of course, because everyone else decided that the cap race will be more fun, and then i am the ***** because i can't hold off 8 guys and then it's a caprace 7 vs 8 and we lose.
I've written it before: the problem is for PUG matches. If you are in a group, well. that's something completly different.

Right after I made that post, I played this game on Alpine Peaks. It's arguably the most difficult map to scout and position properly without getting out of position. This was a PuG match where I was lone-wolfing.

From the enemy's perspective it would look like we just pushed forward and got lucky in a cap race.

But from our team's perspective, you can see we had eyes on their entire force from nearly the very beginning. We scouted angles of attack, saw what was going on, and then pushed forward. We overwhelmed them where they were weak and then won by base cap. We even had a mech back by our base to slow their cap as insurance.

This would have been even more lopsided if my teammates hadn't initially positioned themselves so far away. We would have bowled over several minutes before the enemy team could have even touched our cap. Either way, we pugs communicated effectively and victory was never really in any doubt once we scouted them.

Sorry about no sound, but I hope you get the gist. Go full screen to see the communication.



It's not hard, but it takes initiative and persistence. You can't just say pugs don't communicate because they didn't listen to you that one time. That's pretty silly. Most players will listen if you speak in game. They may not respond, and they may not do as you ask, but they will listen. At the very least, you owe it to them to report enemy movements.

Edited by Jman5, 03 April 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[Noobzorz]

KhanCipher, on 03 April 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

and... someone uses lore as their argument...

what happens in lore stays in lore, what happens in game should be balanced (which it isn't even close to it when it comes to capping)... but... with the crap rewards for capping, and with all the stuff to make capping easier... oh and the only thing that calculates your ELO score is your W/L record (instead of oh... how well you can shoot and hit stuff along your W/L record), no wonder why people hate capping in assault.

He used lore and heavily implied gameplay. Let me skip the lore and the implied part.

Capping is hard. It takes a long time, and it involves you sitting on the wrong side of the entire enemy team. Capping only appears easy because the average MWO forum goer, while presumably mechanically skilled, was apparently born with an extra chromosome or dropped as a child. I have noticed often while spectating that people make breathtakingly stupid decisions and execute those amazingly moronic decisions effectively and efficiently. As a result, people play in a way that is mind boggling dumb, but their skill makes their incompetence seem reasonable.

If they are capping your base and no one is counter capping or defending, you ought to be winning that brawl. Plain and simple. As it stands, it takes a very long time to cap alone, even with an accelerator, and on all but the largest maps, even properly built assault mechs have time to make it back and defend. In the event there are two cappers, then you should be winning the brawl so convincingly that you can spare a few mechs to go back and defend. In the event that there are three cappers, you should have been suspicious long before then, and you really aught to have had someone on high ground or scouting the other direction anyway.

Whenever I have capped or been capped unopposed, it's because as an aggregate, the losing team was either horrendously beaten in the brawl (i.e. would 100% have lost anyway) or because they behaved in a mindless, robotic way, and built a big brawl train (i.e. played stupidly and deserved to lose anyway).

As the meta evolves, people are going to learn their roles efficiently and effectively, and cap rushing will cease to be enabled by dumb behavior on the part of the losing teams. It had worked this way in every multiplayer game I can think of, and it will work this way here. Those calling for its dissolution should get with the times: when I am capped, it is generally because the dudes on the other team played in a skilled and efficient fashion. It would have gone no better for us if they'd dropped in heavies and brawled.

Edited by Noobzorz, 03 April 2013 - 02:19 PM.

[Taemien]

Noobzorz, on 03 April 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Option 4: You got ********** by a 4 man 3L lance that an uncoordinated team cannot possibly beat consistently. Blame the matchmaker.

Can't blame the matchmaker, one could always take a group in themselves. If one chooses not to, its the same as the other 3 options.

On another note, does anyone on these forums ever take personal responsibility for a loss?

[Jman5]

Quote

I have noticed often while spectating that people make breathtakingly stupid decisions and execute those amazingly moronic decisions effectively and efficiently. As a result, people play in a way that is mind boggling dumb, but their skill makes their incompetence seem reasonable.

I don't think I could have said it any better.

People will know exactly where the enemy force is grouped up. Then march themselves so out of position that they are not only farther from the enemy base, but they are putting the enemy team between them and their own base. So even if they spot the cap rush, they have to fight through the enemy team just to get back to their base. And this isn't just the PuGs. I see this crap in the most competitive try-hard 8-mans this game has.

It's like basketball in a lot of respects. You put your defender between your opponent and the basket. That way he can't just dribble in unopposed and dunk it. Except in this analogy both teams are on defense and offense simultaneously so both teams have to position smartly.

This is the sort of common sense stuff that really grates on me, which is why I tend to cap bases frequently. It's just downright insulting to play a team that doesn't respect the rush.

Edited by Jman5, 03 April 2013 - 02:33 PM.