99 replies to this topic

[Noobzorz]

Vassa, on 03 April 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

We are going to see a lot more capping now that everyone is blind. Normal vision sucks and thermal was just made worthless.

I don't agree with this either. It is possible to spot mechs from over 2km away (I did this today on alpine).

Trust me. All of this crying is just because the community sucks at the moment. I suck, you suck, we all suck. Well, I don't know, maybe you're good, but you suck compared to how good you will be in a few months, and that person will suck compared to how good you will be a few months after that. As we get good, things will settle out.

There were essentially no junglers when LoL first came out, no one knew how to drop in StarCraft II, and people barely bought couriers in the early days of DotA 1. Reflecting on this, I think it's safe to say that the meta will develop.

PythonCPT, on 03 April 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

To say the problem is entirely solvable by basic sense is not exactly true, it just creates other boring / non-climactic gameplay because one or both teams are "solving" the problem of being capped out. i can give examples but i assume its obvious now.

Yes, it is exactly true, and no, the examples aren't obvious, because they're dead wrong. Send one light to the other side of the map. Wait for him to say "yeah, nothing," or "K, there are like seven mechs swinging along the water to hit our base." Divert accordingly.

Tah-dah. You have completely solved this issue and in no way slowed the pace of the game.

Complaints about stacked teams you could not defend with your drop list? Cool. I get that. But blame the matchmaker and lack of lobbies. Capping is working.

Edited by Noobzorz, 03 April 2013 - 04:52 PM.

[brock0]

Noobzorz, on 03 April 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

I don't agree with this either. It is possible to spot mechs from over 2km away (I did this today on alpine).

Trust me. All of this crying is just because the community sucks at the moment. I suck, you suck, we all suck. Well, I don't know, maybe you're good, but you suck compared to how good you will be in a few months, and that person will suck compared to how good you will be a few months after that. As we get good, things will settle out.

There were essentially no junglers when LoL first came out, no one knew how to drop in StarCraft II, and people barely bought couriers in the early days of DotA 1. Reflecting on this, I think it's safe to say that the meta will develop.



Yes, it is exactly true, and no, the examples aren't obvious, because they're dead wrong. Send one light to the other side of the map. Wait for him to say "yeah, nothing," or "K, there are like seven mechs swinging along the water to hit our base." Divert accordingly.

Tah-dah. You have completely solved this issue and in no way slowed the pace of the game.

Complaints about stacked teams you could not defend with your drop list? Cool. I get that. But blame the matchmaker and lack of lobbies. Capping is working.

Capping is working for you, that's great.

I can tell you from playing pug matches, that it's not working for a lot of people. When that light mech gets on cap in the first minute of the game and his own team yells at him to get off the cap so they can fight, that should tell you something no?

The cap oriented gameplay is divisive among the player base, not everyone wants to play for caps and unfortunately if you have 15 people in a game that only want to blow each other up and 1 person in a light mech who goes for the lulz cap in minute 2, that one person can decide for all 15 how the match is decided.

But wait you say, stop being noob and do something, stop being noob and tell your team to do something, L2play tacticool and gather information, scout around the map.

In pugs, of course you can control the things YOU do, but not what your TEAM does. If they don't want to scout or cap or do any of those things then it's up to you. And then YOU are forced into doing something maybe YOU don't want to, and maybe that is counterintuitive to lesson 1 in this game; don't get caught alone, because nobody else on your team cares.

This game is based off the tabletop right? Are the only objectives in the TT to cap points? I wonder...

[Phoenix182]

Damon Howe, on 03 April 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Tell me, from a commanders perspective:

If your mechs leave your forward base to go on a mission (leave it practically defenseless, in this case) and all of a sudden several enemy mechs come into the base and ravage/capture it, would that be considered a win or a loss?

Think about it; you've now lost your forward observation post and likely communications with any intel-providing support. You're possibly surrounded by a superior force (how would you know? Your intel base just got captured) and you now have to either march back to recapture your base and recover the losses you just sustained or march forward into possibly even MORE mechs.

You lose the base, you lose initiative. You're now squarely on the defense, at the mercy of the attackers. From a commanders perspective, the base is the FIRST thing you should be targeting if at all possible!

That's neat and all, and I'm sure you're a fine roleplayer. So am I, when I'm playing an rpg. This is a FPS. The only reason for any portion of the franchise ever existing is to shoot robots with other robots.

Lemme put it in terms you may better understand:

You're a military/merc leader. You're trying to take territory, or train your troops for battle, or acquire resources. You have two options:

A. Land on a backwater planet with no strategic importance to capture a base that doesn't produce anything you need but MAY be guarded by an elite unit of equal strength who could kill you or capture your dropship while you're occupied

or

B. Go somewhere that matters and attempt to get your forces engaged against some enemies where if you win you'll acquire a mech repair facility, an armory, and vast reputation, or if you lose you'll be given fresh mechs and your men will have battle experience and hardening

Because that's what we're talking about. Base rushing earns you no experience, next to no cbills, and does NOTHING for anyone. Fighting people, you may lose, but your men will gain experience and you'll get at least as much (probably more) cbills.

Noobzorz, on 03 April 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

What is ocurring is the other team executing a coordinated plan and your team fumbling around and failing to react.

They should be outraged they got paired up against such ineffectual opposition. You robbed THEM of the game, not vice versa.

Not if they don't come out and fight before the end. The point is the fight, not the win. Winning gets you NOTHING in this game, fighting (even if you lose) gets you experience and money (the ONLY two rewards in the game).

Edited by Phoenix182, 03 April 2013 - 05:30 PM.

[Noobzorz]

Phoenix182, on 03 April 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Not if they don't come out and fight before the end. The point is the fight, not the win. Winning gets you NOTHING in this game, fighting (even if you lose) gets you experience and money (the ONLY two rewards in the game).

It's not the other team's responsibility to play down to your team's level to keep things interesting. If they capped you and you sat there and let them, that's on you. They should be capping so they can grind up to the point where the other team is interested in playing the game as it is, instead of some sort of weird scrubby subgame where both teams ignore the additional dimension of bases and just collide into each other at the start. If the ELO is not working and you're constantly getting matched up against opponents who are unwilling to play "hug the brawler" with you, then I can understand your frustration, but your complaint that the other team is not playing by your rules and is going for basecap is still totally invalid.

It's really easy to stop a cap. Just get back there. If no one on your team is able to do that, or if they are destroyed when they do, then you've just got to come to terms with the fact that you can't win every game, and sometimes you will be outplayed.

As for the notion that the point of playing a computer game is not the act of enjoying the game itself, but the act of grinding rewards, may I suggest Farmville?

[Phoenix182]

Noobzorz, on 03 April 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

It's not the other team's responsibility to play down to your team's level to keep things interesting. If they capped you and you sat there and let them, that's on you. They should be capping so they can grind up to the point where the other team is interested in playing the game as it is, instead of some sort of weird scrubby subgame where both teams ignore the additional dimension of bases and just collide into each other at the start. If the ELO is not working and you're constantly getting matched up against opponents who are unwilling to play "hug the brawler" with you, then I can understand your frustration, but your complaint that the other team is not playing by your rules and is going for basecap is still totally invalid.

It's really easy to stop a cap. Just get back there. If no one on your team is able to do that, or if they are destroyed when they do, then you've just got to come to terms with the fact that you can't win every game, and sometimes you will be outplayed.

As for the notion that the point of playing a computer game is not the act of enjoying the game itself, but the act of grinding rewards, may I suggest Farmville?

It's not easy to stop caps because maps are getting bigger, and matchmaking no longer reasonably accounts for weight classes, meaning you frequently get matches with no fast mechs on one side against 2-3 on the other. Or if you do make it back and the entire team has rushed then 6-8 on 1-3 you last about 20 seconds max. The only RELIABLE stops to basecap are to get lucky and run into them during the rush, or to keep 3-5 mechs at least at base for defense...but that just turns the game into stand at base and do nothing for both sides out of fear of losing to base cap.

I have no issue with losing 75% of matches to skilled combat play. I can't stand losing 30% to full team base rushes at start where no one ever sees the other side.

Can't enjoy the game without both exp and cbills because you'll be utterly outclassed in EVERYTHING you try. You need to max the rewards, and THEN enjoy the fighting. Remember too that ONLY fighting provides meaningful rewards, and that the game itself is a fps, not a racing game, or even a simulation.

[Noobzorz]

Phoenix182, on 03 April 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

It's not easy to stop caps because maps are getting bigger, and matchmaking no longer reasonably accounts for weight classes, meaning you frequently get matches with no fast mechs on one side against 2-3 on the other. Or if you do make it back and the entire team has rushed then 6-8 on 1-3 you last about 20 seconds max. The only RELIABLE stops to basecap are to get lucky and run into them during the rush, or to keep 3-5 mechs at least at base for defense...but that just turns the game into stand at base and do nothing for both sides out of fear of losing to base cap.

I have no issue with losing 75% of matches to skilled combat play. I can't stand losing 30% to full team base rushes at start where no one ever sees the other side.

Can't enjoy the game without both exp and cbills because you'll be utterly outclassed in EVERYTHING you try. You need to max the rewards, and THEN enjoy the fighting. Remember too that ONLY fighting provides meaningful rewards, and that the game itself is a fps, not a racing game, or even a simulation.

All of this is just such nonsense. Every word of it. The percentage of matches where base caps occur, the degree of difficulty in spotting cap trains, the assertion that you need to be constantly generating C-bills to have a properly outfitted mech (it takes 20 matches from the time you start your account and you never have to play with a PoS trial mech again), the assertion that quick caps don't give good Cbill and XP payouts.

All of it. Just pure nonsense.

I haven't lost to an unpreventable base cap that wouldn't have ended in a loss by kills in my last 200 matches. I am either an exceptionally skilled player, or what you're talking about is just noise. Knowing what I know, I would put eighty five trillion dollars on the latter.

Give it a few months and you will look back with embarrassment on what a scrub you were five months ago. We all will. After enough such cycles, unopposed base rushes will go the way of the dodo.

Edited by Noobzorz, 03 April 2013 - 08:20 PM.

[KhanCipher]

Noobzorz, on 03 April 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

the assertion that you need to be constantly generating C-bills to have a properly outfitted mech (it takes 20 matches from the time you start your account and you never have to play with a PoS trial mech again), the assertion that quick caps don't give good Cbill and XP payouts.

funny how the acceptable properly outfitted mech in meta also includes having said mech elited and or mastered, and that requires alot more than the 8million that you get from the 20 trial mech games.

and obviously someone wasn't around when pgi removed the c-bill reward for capping (also the same time R&R was removed, i wonder why that is...)

Noobzorz, on 03 April 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

All of it. Just pure nonsense.

i know, your's is nonsense too!

Noobzorz, on 03 April 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

I haven't lost to an unpreventable base cap that wouldn't have ended in a loss by kills in my last 200 matches. I am either an exceptionally skilled player, or what you're talking about is just noise. Knowing what I know, I would put eighty five trillion dollars on the latter.

you know what, i happen to have a light mech, i think i'm going to do some cap rushing and see just how much "fun" it is... honestly the only thing fun i would see about it is just being able to say "umadbro?" after winning >.>

Noobzorz, on 03 April 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Give it a few months and you will look back with embarrassment on what a scrub you were five months ago. We all will. After enough such cycles, unopposed base rushes will go the way of the dodo.

and... there we go, i know what kind of player you are... the kind that loves point out that the game is balanced... at his own skill level but whenever someone says the game isn't "balanced" he's quick to discredit everything that was said because it's balanced at his skill level and precedes to say "L2P", but forgets that the game should be balanced at all skill levels not just the high level skill. This is the reason i love and hate playing SSF4 multiplayer, because sure it's balanced at high level play, but at low level play (0-1000PP) there's either alot of PP tankers, or people that really don't know how to play... which happens to be the same problem over at SC2.

[Zylo]

KhanCipher, on 03 April 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

you know what, i happen to have a light mech, i think i'm going to do some cap rushing and see just how much "fun" it is... honestly the only thing fun i would see about it is just being able to say "umadbro?" after winning >.>

Never underestimate the amount of fun you can have doing this. The best enemy rage you get is from the cheaters that pull maps and have an all sniper team that only drops on the large maps. They did everything possible to stack the odds in their favor but forgot to bring a light mech in their sync-drop. Oops...

[F lan Ker]

S!

Sometimes capping has it's place. Your team is outgunned and outweighed, what to do? Keep them busy and cap the hell out and win. The ensuing rage is priceless. Otherwise I do not see it worth much, 75XP for objective and some C-Bills? Could make more if smashing the opponent to pieces or even losing still make more if damaging them. Situational use, not the goal of the game.

[Lord Psycho]

Or PGI can set a very tall tower for us for the bases to set our Air strikes and artillery strikes on..it will be much more funnier

[NKAc Street]

As ive said many times. The hate of base capping in the majority of cases has little to do with this scenario. In assault the hatred is the ninja caps and knowing if everyone then starts defending bases both sides will just sit around and do little or nothing till someone loses patience or the unlikely light sacrificing itself to hope to step on the enemy base to force them to move. In conquest the cap lords break off from the team right off the bat to try to win by cap as their main strategy , 99% of the time that team loses. Virtually no one but an ***** troll complains about capping when there are one or two of any team left.

[Phoenix182]

Noobzorz, on 03 April 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

All of this is just such nonsense. Every word of it. The percentage of matches where base caps occur, the degree of difficulty in spotting cap trains, the assertion that you need to be constantly generating C-bills to have a properly outfitted mech (it takes 20 matches from the time you start your account and you never have to play with a PoS trial mech again), the assertion that quick caps don't give good Cbill and XP payouts.

All of it. Just pure nonsense.

I haven't lost to an unpreventable base cap that wouldn't have ended in a loss by kills in my last 200 matches. I am either an exceptionally skilled player, or what you're talking about is just noise. Knowing what I know, I would put eighty five trillion dollars on the latter.

Give it a few months and you will look back with embarrassment on what a scrub you were five months ago. We all will. After enough such cycles, unopposed base rushes will go the way of the dodo.

Actually it's spot on, and you're utterly wrong about absolutely everything you say. I've been playing since November (~5000 matches) and consistently place top few percentiles in tourneys and such when I play. While I'm not the best of the best, I'm pretty fair, and you're simply wrong.

For instance, 20 matches, with at best an average 120,000 cbills per match (which NO starting player is going to get even close to) gives you 2,400,000 cbills. With the cheapest competitive mechs (3L or CN9-A) running you a cool 6 mil you're just barely 1/3 of the way there.

In other words, everything YOU say is complete nonsense.

Edited by Phoenix182, 04 April 2013 - 03:46 PM.

[Elder Thorn]

Jman5, on 03 April 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

wall of text + video

yes, you are right. It is possible, and it does happen, too. But it's also not a onetimer, that the caprace on river city happens, even if you saw them, reported them and tried to do something about it (remember? the 1 vs 8 thingy).
Maybe i expressed it wrong a bit, but i never meant that this is the ONLY way things happen.

Noobzorz, on 03 April 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

This also does nothing to rebut anything Jman said.

If your complaints about capping are complaints about the matchmaker, direct your rage elsewhere.

lol

[Joseph Mallan]

NightFallsOnU, on 03 April 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

was this the sketch you are talking about?

if so this is funny indeed

This will do nicely!

[Rocketlaunch]

Suggestion for Assault: you can only base cap when at least half of the enemy team is destroyed.

[Lostdragon]

I get the point of base capping but I hate the way it currently works due to issues with MM. There is nothing more frustrating than having no lights on your team and losing to a base cap when 3-4 of your team is alive and one light who never engaged is capping you. It happens a lot in pugs on large maps. I don't think the mechanic should go away but should be tweaked so that if your team gets slaughtered you will probably lose. Make capping take 10% longer for each dead teammate or fix MM and that problem goes away.

This game is about combat and the point of base capping should be to draw the enemy in to combat, not to ninja a win.

Edited by Lostdragon, 05 April 2013 - 08:20 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I totally agree that base capping is an important part of the game and should stay in.


...However...I would like to see a time delay on the capping from the start of the match (at least in Assault). It would be nice if bases weren't able to be capped until maybe 5 to 10 min. into a match. Something that forces a bit more conflict, but if somone runs off and powers down, the match can still be ended without a draw.

[Tigris]

If we play defensively then it'll be boring, everyone will just sit at base.
- Send a harasser unit at the fringe of their range to pull them out, then flank. Do some counting and if they're missing one or two, then there's probably a light or two out there being obnoxious. Either send a light to find 'em, or leave a med or two at base.

If we brawlfest, we get capped.
- Why are your lights rushing right into the brawl anyway? They should be keeping an eye on the flanks, running the fringes, taking pot-shots, and waiting for an opening to cap themselves.

I'd agree that with PUGs you end up with guys who simply don't care about strategy or the win, but you can't really help that. I don't agree with putting any kind of time-limit on caps (waiting 5 mins or whatnot) but I DO agree with increasing the reward for capping. Afterall, *generally* an assault/heavy bruiser is going to cause more damage and potentially get more kills. It's what they're designed for. A light/medium striker or scout should be racking up assists, TAG bonuses etc, and capping. I think there should be reward -almost- comparable for capping as for getting a kill.

[Joseph Mallan]

I disagree Tigris. We have played a few games where we laid in wait at/near the base. The anticipation of the the enemy's arrival and ensuing battle were anything but boring.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 April 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[Diomed]

This incident is so rare that it is statistically irrelevant. Base caps are cheap and cowardly. You are admitting you can't aim, or at least strongly implying it. When one team does an end-run around the other because they got 4 squirrels while the other team got one or none it is NOT MechWarrior. Its more like MechSissy.