1089 replies to this topic

[DCLXVI]

ive never cried in battlefield after getting knifed in the back by a stealthy player or sniper from across the map while only fielding short range weapons. half of us will always have to lose shhhhh its ok lol

[hammerreborn]

Dishevel, on 03 April 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

What?
Just because it has few HP does not make it nearly as fragile as a gauss. Not even close.
Gauss goes fast because it almost fills any location it is in. Almost every crit hits it. So it goes down fast.
ECM has a very small profile. So when it gets hit it goes fast but it is not nearly even as close to getting hit as a gauss rifle.

Hence the nearly? I mean, words have meaning.

[ExAstris]

Well, that Command Chair post was the single most disappointing read in my entire history with this game.

They actually want ECM to be a monstrously overpowered piece of equipment that everyone must play around.

This option being taken in lieu of dozens of options that would make for more interesting (albeit subtle) interplay of game mechanics, while simultaneously normalizing mech balance, pug balance, and (for many of the suggestions at least) weapon balance.



PGI: I find your vision of the game to be condemnable. I haven't booted up your client in a month, and given the type of gameplay you seem to want to bring about, and the respective lack of balance and respect for pugs that vision brings with it, I can't imagine ever spending any money on something so single-mindedly wrought with tunnel vision again.

This vision of MWO is just not worth my time.

[Asakara]

General Taskeen, on 03 April 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Well I'll probably be done with the game soon, I guess. Who wants my stuff? I don't got much stuff, just a bunch of record sheet mechs. I haven't even touched my premium time.

<snip>

Dibs! Send your logon and password info to: takintaskeenstuff@gmail.com and I will relieve you of this burden.

[Slaytronic]

so air strikes and arty suck ecm is the same all they want us to do is run around in death balls it seems no tactics no strats just run around in a ball and kill I won't be playing for a long time then until this game is actually a thinking mans game instead of a bunch of robot jocks

[Tethyss]

I appreciate the chance to provide honest feedback. I am going to quote some of the original Command Chair post here:

Quote

I couldn't comment on the state of ECM in the game until I had 2 additional counter measures implemented into the game.

There are no counter measures currently in place for ECM. I don't know what you're referring to regarding PPC's or the Advanced Sensor Range. The former works for a window of time so small that it only really impacts the mech firing the PPC. How about it lasts long enough for the LRM boat 1000m away to get *1* volley in? The latter creates no discernable difference that I can detect.

If the 'counter' is so small and immeasurable as to be generally disregarded by most players ( you make that call ) then it cannot be called a 'counter measure'.

Quote

the ECM really only affects 2 weapon systems

If a device renders the mech invisible to all methods of detection then it affects all weapon systems. Please choose your words carefully as this leads to misunderstandings.

Quote

hit detection on all Mechs was off quite a bit

Thank you for clarifying this.

Quote

Putting a PPC shot on an ECM equipped Mech makes them very vulnerable for 4 seconds

As has already been stated, it does not make them 'very' vulnerable.

Quote

The “Advanced Sensor Range” module allows you to get a lock on an ECM Mech at a longer distance and S-SRMs/LRMs can be fired in a larger window than before.

The effects of this module are negligible at best and hardly worth the cost. Please reexamine this.

Quote

That said, there are two things suggested by the community that struck a chord and we will be looking into implementing soon

Agreed on both counts. Thank you for this opportunity to be heard.

[StalaggtIKE]

Roadbeer, on 03 April 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

I honestly don't see what the big deal is about it, but that's from my point of view. I'm almost always dropping in a group, whether it be 4 man or 8 man. Many times in the smaller groups, we don't even discuss bringing ECM because it's a non-factor to us.

Radar flicks
"We got ECM in the backfield"
"You got it?"
"Yeah"

And that's the last I worry about ECM unless I hear "He got me" then it becomes my problem. Which doesn't happen often.

So I honestly don't get what the BFD is about it.

Oh, and before anyone asks, my KDR and W/L are just fine, thanks.

Good for you. Seems you got a great team backing you up. Now explains to me how that helps new players that, hopefully, will be joining MWO in the future?

[hammerreborn]

Tethyss, on 03 April 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

I appreciate the chance to provide honest feedback. I am going to quote some of the original Command Chair post here:




There are no counter measures currently in place for ECM. I don't know what you're referring to regarding PPC's or the Advanced Sensor Range. The former works for a window of time so small that it only really impacts the mech firing the PPC. How about it lasts long enough for the LRM boat 1000m away to get *1* volley in? The latter creates no discernable difference that I can detect.

If the 'counter' is so small and immeasurable as to be generally disregarded by most players ( you make that call ) then it cannot be called a 'counter measure'.



If a device renders the mech invisible to all methods of detection then it affects all weapon systems. Please choose your words carefully as this leads to misunderstandings.






Thank you for clarifying this.


As has already been stated, it does not make them 'very' vulnerable.



The effects of this module are negligible at best and hardly worth the cost. Please reexamine this.



Agreed on both counts. Thank you for this opportunity to be heard.

You tell Paul to choose his words carefully yet you throw around "counter" and "invisible" completely contrary to their meanings? TAG and PPC are counters, wether you want to call it that or not. And ECM mechs are hardly invisible, unless invisible in your world is "i cant hit 'r'"

I also love the "i can't fire LRMs in the EMP time" as if the person firing the PPC just shrugs and walks off after hitting the D-DC once.

Edited by hammerreborn, 03 April 2013 - 03:50 PM.

[Roadbeer]

StalaggtIKE, on 03 April 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Good for you. Seems you got a great team backing you up. Now explains to me how that helps new players that, hopefully, will be joining MWO in the future?

It doesn't

Explain to me how anything (except for a woefully lacking new player experience) hurts them, specifically in regards to ECM.

Because the only real difference I've found between group and being in a PUG is I don't have anyone to laugh with when the 3L facerolls into my alpha blast.

Edited by Roadbeer, 03 April 2013 - 04:01 PM.

[Dan Nashe]

Like the changes.
The big thing I wanted to see was friendlies being visible to really help new players and PuGs without really effecting high end competitive play... So this is something I really hope is implemented.

Questions/Concerns:
(1) BAP is still useless. Completely and totally. Modules are useful.
Am I wrong? [well, ok, 25% reduced time to show target info. Does anyone even use that Module?]

(2) Non-ECM variants of light mechs.
Other than the Jenner (best firepower of any light, can match any lights top speed, almost as agile as a spider), why would you bring anything other than the Raven 3L and maybe the ECM spider right now?


Raven 2X, 4X, Spider (non-ECM variants), Commando (non-ECM variants) are all still a fool's choice if you're playing with any kind of competitive bent. Is there any valid reason to take any of those? Other than of course to unlock elite for your ECM variant. [For that matter, the commando is just a SLOWER, less armored, less heavily armed Raven 3L)

The DDC as the only ECM assault is fine. One DDC is still required for your fire line and you bring assault mechs for firepower and armor, so variants with more armor/firepower/speed are always valid. In contrast, Why would you bring a light mech that isn't either (a) a light mech killer (jenner) or ( b ) has the necessary electronics (ECM) to actually scout?

[I'd say the Commando is a dumb trap for unwary new players too, even the 2D, but if *weight* balancing replaces *class* balancing, that won't necessarily be the case. However, in 8 mans, Jenner (any variant) and Raven 3L remain the only reasonable choices. I am willing to entertain the *possibility* that spiders are ok . . . as long as you bring the ECM variant.]

Commando and Raven 2x/4x need their speed (engine) cap raised. [For the ravens, lowering the 3Ls cap is also valid. Lowering the Raven's max speed to 135 kph or so would give the Spider (ECM) a role as the lighter, less well armed, but faster scout.]

All light mechs should have ECM except the Jenner.

Now you bring:
Flea: upgrade that trebuchet to a catapault (weight balancing)!
Fast, ECM (needs a max speed of 150 kph)

Commando: (with 150 kph max speed). Fast, very little weight.
Variant? Whichever you prefer!
[Ok, maybe the death knell shouldn't get ECM ]


Raven: 135 kph max speed, all variants
Heavy ECM platform with solid firepower, Solid speed.
Variant? Whichever you prefer! 2x lasers, 3L missiles, 4x jump jets.

Spider?
ECM
Fast, maneuverable, jumps, 20% bigger (more armor, firepower) than a commando.
[I'd drop the spider max speed down to like 143, make the Jenner/Raven 135, and the flea/commando 150].

Jenner?
No ECM.
Best light mech hardpoints. Best all around combat light, except no ECM.
Bring it to murder other light mechs and be a solid striker.
Variant? Whichever you prefer the loadout on!

Edited by DanNashe, 03 April 2013 - 03:52 PM.

[Thuzel]

Vassago Rain, on 03 April 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

You're gonna find that, like always, I'm right, and you're wrong. You also have to consider how much money some people have put into their favored mechs, which may or may not be ECM variants.

I'm not gonna be happy when my primary mech, my ancient DDC, gets an ECM locked to the leg, because golds complained. That's gonna ruin it for me, and it erases all the money and time I put into it.

That'd be okay, if this was coming a week after we got the system. It's over half a year. It's not okay.

For this alone I hope they lock it in the leg.

And beta. At least, that's what people keep saying anyway.

[Ramsess]

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3] Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.^[4]
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes
http://www.sarna.net...i/Stealth_Armor

BattleMech Stealth Armor provides as much protection as standard armor. It takes up two critical slots in each arm, leg, and side torso. To work, it also requires the 'Mech to carry a Guardian ECM Suite.^[1]
The system can be activated or deactivated in the End Phase of any turn. When active the system builds up 10 heat points, and is affected as if it is in range of an enemy ECM Suite. Any unit attacking a BattleMech with active Stealth Armor gets a +1 hit penalty at medium range and a +2 hit penalty at long range. The Stealth Armored BattleMech cannot be a secondary target while the system is active.



Now tell me PGI where you went out of your way to make that into what it is currently ingame....

[Aegis Kleais]

In all honesty, the statement about there being bigger and better hit detection coming down the pipeline was the only thing interesting to me in this article.

I'm fine with where PGI has taken ECM, but, as you can tell by my signature, I'm no where even remotely near happy with this game's hitbox detection. For me, it's been a source of frustration since day 1, and there's been no improvement on the status quo the whole time. Hopefully, this claim to results will have a tangible effect in game when it is released.

[Peiper]

The biggest problem with ECM is that it's a magical cloaking device for entire formations of mechs. Oh wait, this has been said before a billion times.

I read Paul's statement and I can sum it up here: ECM is FUBAR, and that's okay with PGI so suck it!

Whatever. I am very discouraged that after months of great suggestions and justified criticism that ECM remains an area cloaking device - something that NEVER existed in battletech, ever, never ever. It doesn't exist in battletech because it never belonged, and it doesn't belong in a game called mechwarrior which is supposed to be a game based on, and about battletech.

And still, the way to get rid of the cloaking device, other than having your entire force equipped with PPCs and TAG (also nothing like battletech) is to have more cloaking devices. Because if we have more cloaking devices, "my cloaking devices are better than your cloaking devices" or something else FUBAR.

___________________________

And if ECM isn't broken, then let every mech take it. Or, at least, don't let it be put on anything larger than 40 tons...
_________________________________

I'm happy to see that it's not going to block my identifying my own teammates, but you still don't get the point, PGI...

I don't like to sound so disjointed in my posts, but I'm under the (delusion?) that what I say here might mean something to someone and I MIGHT be able to shed some light/sway opinion, but this leaves me rather dejected and hopeless.

PGI, this time you're wrong. Just admit it, redesign ECM to act as it should and you won't have to worry about giving it hit points, coming up with STUPID 'counters,' specific hardpoints, TAG or whatever other crap you've done to try to justify it's existence as NOT broken. And ECM is supposed to jam NARC and TAG (built into C3 computers). It's so far from what it SHOULD be that it doesn't resemble itself. It's like calling a man a woman when you're really looking at a tree. That's how far off it is. If you're going to have a cloaking device, then call it that.

"ComStar Area Cloaking Device"

Then we can all just say fugg it and go support a company that is making a battletech game and not whatever goofed up crap it is that you're trying to sell us under the banner of 'mechwarrior.'

Edited by Peiper, 03 April 2013 - 04:00 PM.

[Rofl]

Vassago Rain, on 03 April 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

You're gonna find that, like always, I'm right, and you're wrong. You also have to consider how much money some people have put into their favored mechs, which may or may not be ECM variants.

I'm not gonna be happy when my primary mech, my ancient DDC, gets an ECM locked to the leg, because golds complained. That's gonna ruin it for me, and it erases all the money and time I put into it.

That'd be okay, if this was coming a week after we got the system. It's over half a year. It's not okay.

This person here has the correct response. Unless you think it's not beta, which I guess makes you think PGI is liars?

Galenit, on 03 April 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

Its beta, they should know that everything can change ...
ECM is, from the release of it, under discussion. It was predictable that something will change.
If it was predictable that the change will be stupid, should everyone answer himself...

The fact the ECM is getting so much of a response is a telltale sign something is amiss. No one complains about small lasers or BAP being OP! (Funny thing: BAP is on less stock mechs than ECM, yet ECM is limited to certain mechs and BAP is not. Reason? BAP is **** and ECM is amazing)

Corbon Zackery, on 03 April 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

Then the system needs to conform to battletech cannon:

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.[3] Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.[4]

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.[2]

The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite

Vassago Rain, on 03 April 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

'
But muh canon lore fluff CBT! That most of them never played.

Always expect the worst, and you won't be disappointed. They'll be in the legs and other weird places, because they know that's where you put critical gear like ammo.

This after half a year of having it work another way,

If they implemented the Gauss Rifle to do 30 damage per shot instead of 15, but at 1/2 it's fire rate... it'd be "balanced" right? The TT is a good set of guidelines. Nothing has to be taken literally, but they did a good job of balancing it out (they even tried to add in an equipment point system for fair matches... something MWO has not even suggested). The reason people point this out is not to say "OMG ITS NOT LORE" It's more to say "You know... this thing does 3 pieces of equipment worth of work AND THEN SOME, for the same weight and tons as 1." Imagine if ballistics magically disabled PPCs because "random made up pseudoscience reason coils get vibrated". It'd still be loss OP than ECM because at least all mechs can equip both sides of the equation.

Jungle Rhino, on 03 April 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

You know vas you could always not take ecm in your DDC seeing as it sucks so hard and is going to fill up your leg bins...

Vassago Rain, on 03 April 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

I'm gonna switch to poptarter if they go ruin my mechs after telling us this is how it's gonna work for half a year. You people don't get it.

I shouldn't be surprised, but I am.

It's been like half a year. We have specific roles for WARBOSS, and hunter-kill lights. My job is to bring ECM and support gear proper, and to assassinate the enemy commander. It's what I do.

PGI couldn't implement role warfare, but the community did on its own. Half a year of this, and now that's gonna go away, or get changed, because...? Because golds are bad, and can't switch to counter?

Oh, okay. Sounds like a great idea.

You said it yourself, ECM in counter is the counter to ECM. That's not a good system.

EDIT:

Vassago, let me spell it out for you. This is what is happening:

Your precious ECM, the equipment you love and cherish above all else, is too good for it's weight/tons. Balance is being restored, just like it is for missiles, like it was for gauss, for mechs running faster than the game could handle, for ac2's causing so much screen shake.

You probably weren't on the receiving end of all those nerfs. You probably told those people "It's fine, L2P" when the nerf hammer came down. Well guess what? It's your time.

If ECM gets something as dumb as a hardpoint lock... It's fine, L2P.

Edited by Rofl, 03 April 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[Moromillas]

Paul,

Thanks for the good news on ECM. However, this still does not address the problem of ECM being up close and personal with combat. I have no problem with ECM stifling enemy position and limiting long range combat. The problem of using the ECM as brawler weapon still persists though, with or without soft counters like PPC. Simply get yourself into range and you can shut down streaks, LRM's, tag, NARC does nothing of course, it's just too hard of a counter for these weapons.

Like I said, I have no problem with ECM hiding enemy positions, and limiting long range combat, but it's just not being used for that. We need solutions to get it away from the front line. I'll be honest and say 4 secs of shut down time when a friendly Mech hits it with a PPC, doesn't cut the mustard.

P.S: Do you really drink Pepsi?

[SIN Deacon]

I like how towards the bottom of the post garth states...

• ECM should not cut out friendly signatures on the battlefield. Friendly Mechs should always be identifiable and not obscure team play.

Why is this so bloody hard to implement? You probably would have solved 10-25% of ECM "issues" right off the bat by simply allowing pug teams to see each other. I'm down for you guys to implement things in a specific order and not just all at once, but you guys should start to consider what your priorities are instead of just MC mechs and MC Modules.

Something as simple as providing all mechs with the same possible advantage would easily even the field. You've mucked with everything else this game held dear once, why not just make a quick change for ECM? Fack it right?

Edited by SIN Deacon, 03 April 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Peiper, on 03 April 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

Whatever. I am very discouraged that after months of great suggestions and justified criticism that ECM remains an area cloaking device - something that NEVER existed in battletech, ever, never ever. It doesn't exist in battletech because it never belonged, and it doesn't belong in a game called mechwarrior which is supposed to be a game based on, and about battletech.

They never had area cloaking in Battletech because you can't exactly go: "okay, pretend you don't see these miniatures."

[StalaggtIKE]

A valid counter to ECM would have been to create a ECM consumable for non-ECM mechs. No, that was sarcasm, however it would have probably worked better than what we currently have. That's the sad part.

[Texas Merc]

lots of pages with lots of words. TL DR And yah that thing about seeing your friends will help the newblies