1089 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Arcturious, on 03 April 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

That line there is the most critically important part of the whole update. I think if ECM still let you determine who is enemy and who is friend 99% of the issues with ECM will go away.

I'm one of those few who have had no problems with ECM since introduction. I think it was an incredible and necessary addition to the game. However, the sheer amount of friendly fire and watching people ignoring ECM mechs while spectating has shown that not everyone understands and can compensate for ECM.

That one major change will fix it I believe for all the players who had difficulty.

Dumb players aren't a reason to dumb down the game, when it clearly works as intended. Dumb players friendly fire and get confused.

Bad ECM carriers can't do their job properly. People who know what they're doing propser. You've all been so incredibly adamant that this game should be hardcore, but you can't handle a feature that removes arrows and radar. You had either in quake?

[Shahadet]

Just as a general input:

1.) Streaks + ECM are still a problem (I'm looking at you Raven 3L and Commando 2D). Despite all the bigger mech pilots talking about enjoying legging lights, it has been my experience that the best counter to light mechs is your OWN light mechs. And when your Jenners and other non ecm lights can't handle the enemies' ECM Streak lights, because the enemy can "no skill, auto hit" your guys, and your guys can't do the same to them, it make for a "not fun game".

Never mind the fact that you have a piece of equipment, putting out enough Electromagnetic interference to jam any radars within a certain range, on as big a spectrum as possible, and yet somehow it doesn't affect your own delicate, only recently recovered (in lore) "auto-hit" tech? Really?

I won't go into how much I hate Streaks in general (just 1 step below Aim Bots in my book) - even though they are in lore, I think something else should have been done to implement them, rather than "auto hit."


2.) As many other people have pointed out, things like PPCs, TAG, Advanced Sensor range are "soft counters" that can be easily avoided and can be difficult to implement. At least one "hard counter" (like, say, the Beagle Active Probe) should be implemented.

[Galenit]

I miss two things...
BAP & NARC

BAP works a little like the sensor range module, but it misses the "ecm reduction", give it some and let it stack with the module. ( Around 10m more for the target window?)

NARC does nearly nothing and no one uses it. Let it remove ECM on the target for the duration. Its a lot of tons and very small ammo per ton, give it some use.

Edited by Galenit, 03 April 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[armchairyoda]

Gwaihir, on 03 April 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

The outrageously outsized community overreaction to ECM is just another red herring that should not be considered when attempting to work up deep meaningful game systems.

This is as close to truth as you silly children will ever know.

ECM doesn't equal an "IWIN BUTTAN", it's a tool.
-GOOD Scouts can sneak around maps with it.
-GOOD teams can stop LRM boats from wasting them with it.
-BAD PILOTS (myself included) can be tricked by it.

Holy crap. I'd almost swear that some of you spergs never even had to pay your own bills (i.e.- accept responsibility) for your own actions in A GAME ABOUT INTERNET SPACE ROBOTS.

If you nerf ECM, and I have *NEVAR* run a gundam with ECM (no ****!), you are basically telling your fellow TT poopsockers that you don't like water depth and are removing it from your maps.

E- Can we get a "DON'T LIKE" button? It looks like we're either stroking egos or not reading.

Edited by armchairyoda, 03 April 2013 - 03:04 PM.

[Sanreal]

Shouldn't the current metrics be self-explanatory to PGI? Nearly everyone who scouts takes an ECM mech only, and does far better for it. And I'd wager that there are far more D-DC Atlases than any other variant being run.

I had to shelve my Jenner about a month after ECM was released. Everytime streaks and/or ECM showed up, there was nothing to do but run away. The last mechs alive in a match were always the ECM mechs. Especially the Raven 3L.

ECM was an interesting attempt at team-based play. Unfortunately, the team with more ECM wins about 90% of the time. So what data is PGI looking at that convinces them that it's balanced (mostly)? The dev post sounds like a giant diss to their players.

[CutterWolf]

Wait, WTF??

""ECM should not cut out friendly signatures on the battlefield. Friendly Mechs should always be identifiable and not obscure team play.""

So now like "magic" your going to be able to see all your team mates if they are under your or your enemy's ECM bubble?? So are you saying that your ECM can selectively not jam your own teams IFF?? Really?? That does not make any since what so ever! I'm sorry but NO, if your under a ECM bubble your being jammed friendly or not. The enemy is not going to ask you, "hey could you please tell us your IFF freak so we don't block that for you?" So the very thing that ECM is suppose to block it won't be doing?? Really??

Edited by CutterWolf, 03 April 2013 - 03:11 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

So I want to tell you something really great.

That raven you put so much time and money into the camo and build for? Well, that's kinda hanging by a thread now.

Better hope you don't get your ECM locked to somewhere that would ruin the mech. Would be a shame if all those dollars were wasted...

[Rofl]

Vassago Rain, on 03 April 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

I cannot stress this enough. This one change will likely ruin the game, and wipe out most players mech collections. Enjoy forcing this.

I know I won't when they lock ECM to my DDC's leg, thus ruining my ammo bins, and making the whole thing virtually useless. But we'll have...more jump jetting PPC/gauss snipers? That's lots of fun.

This is why I didn't spend a single coin on this game during the beta phase. I knew you'd force something like this to 'change the meta.'

I'll probably get a warning on the forums for this, but are you some kind of super *****? Did you eat a **** ton of stupid sauce as a child? Maybe dropped on your head?

I know you want ECM to be amazing, as a DDC pilot. But, for 1 second, pretend you didn't have a DDC. Pretend you have 0 mechs with ECM. Would it still be OK? I suggest you try forming an 8 man and NOT taking ECM once.

It will not wipe out everyones mech collections. I have 1 mech that uses ECM, a raven 3L, and even if there was a hardpoint lock (which I agree is dumb), it would not ruin that mech, no matter where it was. I can build a good mech around silly hardpoint layouts. There's more pressing mech customization to worry about than this.

Step back and examine it from the outside. The whole reason I got a 3L was to see if it was as crazy OP as it sounds. It is. Even with the changes to the 3L, it still is. this is coming from running mostly non 8 man teams, mind you, where the majority of the game is played. In 8 mans, it's not AS big of a deal, but still important.

ECM does too many things for its size (Guardian, Angel, NSS, denies things it shouldn't). There is no true counter to it but itself; it's still an arms race.

[Vassago Rain]

armchairyoda, on 03 April 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

This is as close to truth as you silly children will ever know.

ECM doesn't equal an "IWIN BUTTAN", it's a tool.
-GOOD Scouts can sneak around maps with it.
-GOOD teams can stop LRM boats from wasting them with it.
-BAD PILOTS (myself included) can be tricked by it.

Holy crap. I'd almost swear that some of you spergs never even had to pay your own bills (i.e.- accept responsibility) for your own actions in A GAME ABOUT INTERNET SPACE ROBOTS.

If you nerf ECM, and I have *NEVAR* run a gundam with ECM (no ****!), you are basically telling your fellow TT poopsockers that you don't like water depth and are removing it from your maps.

E- Can we get a "DON'T LIKE" button? It looks like we're either stroking egos or not reading.

Don't worry. They'll push for this to not go through once they realize their atlases have camo for about 10 dollars on them.

[Bazukyuu]

I want you to limit the number of ecm having a team by 2.
Rule below please.

• if Red team have 1 ecm, Blue team must have 0 or 1 ecm
  
• if Red team have 2 ecms, Blue team must have 1 or 2 ecms
  
• each team can't have 3 or more ecms

[Vassago Rain]

Rofl, on 03 April 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

I'll probably get a warning on the forums for this, but are you some kind of super *****? Did you eat a **** ton of stupid sauce as a child? Maybe dropped on your head?

I know you want ECM to be amazing, as a DDC pilot. But, for 1 second, pretend you didn't have a DDC. Pretend you have 0 mechs with ECM. Would it still be OK? I suggest you try forming an 8 man and NOT taking ECM once.

It will not wipe out everyones mech collections. I have 1 mech that uses ECM, a raven 3L, and even if there was a hardpoint lock (which I agree is dumb), it would not ruin that mech, no matter where it was. I can build a good mech around silly hardpoint layouts. There's more pressing mech customization to worry about than this.

Step back and examine it from the outside. The whole reason I got a 3L was to see if it was as crazy OP as it sounds. It is. Even with the changes to the 3L, it still is. this is coming from running mostly non 8 man teams, mind you, where the majority of the game is played. In 8 mans, it's not AS big of a deal, but still important.

ECM does too many things for its size (Guardian, Angel, NSS, denies things it shouldn't). There is no true counter to it but itself; it's still an arms race.

You're gonna find that, like always, I'm right, and you're wrong. You also have to consider how much money some people have put into their favored mechs, which may or may not be ECM variants.

I'm not gonna be happy when my primary mech, my ancient DDC, gets an ECM locked to the leg, because golds complained. That's gonna ruin it for me, and it erases all the money and time I put into it.

That'd be okay, if this was coming a week after we got the system. It's over half a year. It's not okay.

[Deathlike]

Bazukyuu, on 03 April 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

I want you to limit the number of ecm having a team by 2.
Rule below please.

• if Red team have 1 ecm, Blue team must have 0 or 1 ecm
  
• if Red team have 2 ecms, Blue team must have 1 or 2 ecms
  
• each team can't have 3 or more ecms

Outside of trying to do MM adjustments... that won't happen.

A 4-man premade could have all ECM... which wouldn't be hard to test, but the game doesn't stop a match from happening because of it. Same goes for an 8-man.

Edited by Deathlike, 03 April 2013 - 03:13 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

Pathetic, still does too much for such a small module, and I drive a 3m and 5D.

Jamming is a joke when the other team walks in multi ecm groups, one jamming ecm should jam all.

[Jungle Rhino]

So who wins 8 com2d v 8 com3a?

Someone tell me with a straight face that any level of skill differential could make that a fair fight.

Ecm is fundamentally destroying light much interactions. Unfortunately it is clear that pgi don't give a **** about this.

Too many ego's at stake for a climb down now, better start saving for a DDC I guess.

[Dishevel]

hammerreborn, on 03 April 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

(because it dies nearly as fast as a guass)

What?
Just because it has few HP does not make it nearly as fragile as a gauss. Not even close.
Gauss goes fast because it almost fills any location it is in. Almost every crit hits it. So it goes down fast.
ECM has a very small profile. So when it gets hit it goes fast but it is not nearly even as close to getting hit as a gauss rifle.

[Galenit]

Vassago Rain, on 03 April 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

You also have to consider how much money some people have put into their favored mechs, which may or may not be ECM variants.

Its beta, they should know that everything can change ...
ECM is, from the release of it, under discussion. It was predictable that something will change.
If it was predictable that the change will be stupid, should everyone answer himself...

Edited by Galenit, 03 April 2013 - 03:16 PM.

[Corbon Zackery]

Vassago Rain, on 03 April 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

No, it's not raid gear. Stop pretending it is.

Then the system needs to conform to battletech cannon:

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.[3] Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.[4]

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.[2]

The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite

[Suko]

Vassago Rain, on 03 April 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

You're gonna find that, like always, I'm right, and you're wrong. You also have to consider how much money some people have put into their favored mechs, which may or may not be ECM variants.

LMFAO. Someone is a pretensions pr*ck.

[Mystere]

I took them at their word that ECM is close to what they envisioned and prepared accordingly. It looks like it just paid off.

Vassago Rain, on 03 April 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

The tears are delicious.

Well, if people adapted instead of crying, there would be no need for tears. So, yes, these vast flowing rivers of male nerd rage tears are delicious indeed.

Edited by Mystere, 03 April 2013 - 03:21 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

TT isn't really helpful for this discussion. Half the things ECM does in TT don't even make sense in the context of a Mechwarrior game.