1089 replies to this topic

[TOGSolid]

Quote

Alternately, you could also make BAP counter ECM, and call it a day

I like how even guys with differing opinions point out the exact same solution. It's almost as if this was the most logical, fuckstupid obvious fix ever!

Edited by TOGSolid, 03 April 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[saq]

Stalkerr, on 03 April 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Paul, I love you for your love for Battletech bud, but these are not good ideas from the perspective of building a deep and lasting metagame in MWO.

• ECM should not be a dedicated hardpoint so people can disable it. This defeats the purpose of having a mechlab in the first place. You might as well rename it the "Weapon Lab", because you're essentially taking away the ability to customize a robot to be as effective as possible. There is already a counter to ECM and it's called ECM on counter. Alternately, you could also make BAP counter ECM, and call it a day. Plus, PPCs can temp counter ECM now a well. PLEASE do not make lazy game design choices like this. You kill off the depth of metagaming robot builds with these kinds of decisions.
  
• ECM should continue to cut out friendly signatures. If your teammates are that far split off from you without some sort of ECM counter, there should be some sort of penalty when they come under an ECM umbrella. This is a perfectly valid game mechanic and should remain in the game.

Short story... if you make these changes, you nerf ECM so much there is no reason to ever bring one on any robot in MWO's metagame. If your intention is to make the ECM useless and make MWO matches a more shallow experience, then you're on the right track. As a former game designer myself I implore you, please do not take the easy road on this and think carefully through the downstream implications of your decision.



Thanks,

I have to quote this to signify how important this comment is.
ECM as it is right now has been way over-nerfed by tag being too far out, reduce it to 600m and bring in the propsed advanced sensor range changes and its totally fine. I can even see NARC having a purpose by doing some TAG-like defeating of ECM, but the often cited complain about ECM being overpowered is completely ridiculous.

Restricting ECM to a hardpoint is going to further reduce the ability for players to customize their mechs and dumbs down the game even more.

Removing the ability for you to use ECM and hide an enemies position from their teammates is very counter-intuitive and removes one of the main points of ECM: information-warfare, one of the oft touted cornerstones of MWO game design. To throw that out would be (yet another) way of saying "Sorry players who are actually paying for and playing this game, we want to dumb it down so people who aren't playing might want to play!". This logic is folly as gamers don't want dumbed down games and have always desired games to be more complex and in-depth.

Then again you throw in the silly things that are being pursued like 3rd person mode and you can see which direction this game is headed.

Edited by saq, 03 April 2013 - 02:47 PM.

[Ter Ushaka]

Quote

ECM should have a dedicated hardpoint (tonnage/space does not change). That way ECM will always be in a known location on a Mech and can be directly targeted by attackers.

ECM already has many counters, PPC's, TAG, ECCM mode, and just straight out blowing up the mech(s) that's jamming your team. Players need to learn how to counter ECM, it is not God Mode.

[hercules1981]

Actually surprized that the 1 in counter, counters all idea didn't even get mentioned at all by them. That totally takes the the # of ECM mechs on either side problem right out. Just makes ECM team boating not really a problem unless of course the only ECM on your team goes down but if u r not with that ECM mech and he is the only 1 on your team shame on u for not hanging with him or shame on him for running out ahead of the team and getting jumped and killed.other then this, I'm good with how ECM will b and could care wheatear it scrambles your mini map or not.

Edited by hercules1981, 03 April 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[Weaselball]

This is a bit underwhelming. I'll explain in a calm, thought out manner. Hopefully this post isn't looked over by PGI because I disagree with their decision.

ECM is strong for several reasons, none of which were mentioned in this post:

1)

It creates not only a protective, anti-LRM / anti-SSRM bubble around you and your friends within 200 meters of you, but it ALSO actively jams enemies within that same radius.

This is a tad excessive, making it a two-for-one piece of equipment. What it SHOULD do is either A, or B. Either cloak you and your friends to radar outside of 200 meters and make getting a missile lock impossible (without TAG, or PPC), OR jam enemy mechs. Not both.

Right now you can run up to that LRM boat sitting on a hill, sit behind it, and ruin his day. Or you can stay with your team and ruin his day also. There's no decision making in that. There's no "well I better stay with my team," or "well I better run up and jam." It does both without you having to think about it.

2)

It counters BAP, a piece of equipment which (while available to every mech) weighs exactly the same, and has the same number of crits assigned to it. These two pieces of equipment should be Yin and Yang.

Enemy has ECM? Bring BAP to help fight (some) of its effects.
Enemy has BAP? Good thing you brought ECM to help fight (some) of its effects.

See what I did there? This isn't rock-paper-scissors design. This is more involved design. Don't make 1 piece of equipment completely negate another. ECM does that currently with regards to BAP.

3)

ECM on light mechs packing streaks. I dont think anyone here will argue that a Raven 3L is a stronger mech choice than, say, another light mech packing lasers and streaks that DOESN'T have ECM. The Raven will, obviously, win 9/10 times (assuming pilots of equal skill.... and ok I made that stat up for emphasis).

Right now ECM has pretty much dominated the whole light-mech aspect of the game. Back in closed beta you'd have jenners running around happy and free. Right now, while they're still running around, they're not nearly as practical as bringing ECM. Why? Scroll back up to point #1.

Now, that said, here are some things I do agree with PGI on ECM (so as to show I'm not just a rage poster angry at PGI over everything):

A)

Yes, light mechs are easier to hit now, thank you. The recent changes to net code has made them much less scary. I can pretty effectively knock out a Raven 3L with Autocannons without much worry. Easy to leg, easy to kill.



Thank you for considering the whole team-play implication that hiding friendly mechs caught inside of an enemy ECM bubble carries. Its easily one of the more ridiculous aspects of ECM, and should never have been there in the first place. (it effectively makes point #1 a 3-for-1, rather than a 2-for-1 piece of equipment)

C)

Thank you for taking the time to make the post. I realize it's a HUGE hot topic and that you'll never please everyone with ECM, so thank you for touching on it, even if people (myself included) find that your reply was mediocre at best. You tried, or it looks like you tried, to engage the community in discussion on it and I applaud you for the initial effort. You're not done yet though.

Please, PGI, reconsider some more changes to ECM. It's currently a no-brainer, 3-for-1 piece of equipment that makes other pieces of gear completely, 100% obsolete without any one piece of gear (aside from another ECM) that can do the same to it (yes, PPC, I'm looking at you. Go sit back in your corner.)

Note: The whole PPC thing, while yes, it can counter ECM, is hardly what I'd consider a great counter for it. It's like if instead of AMS they made it so hitting a mech with a gauss-rifle shot will prevent it from using LRM's for 4 seconds. Its just a bandaid fix that doesn't really address everything that makes ECM strong while ignoring a currently in-game piece of equipment aptly suited for such a task.

Edited by Weaselball, 03 April 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[Bunko]

Strange that TAG was not considered a counter in the OP, though it only works for a single target I find it very useful for direct fire weapons. Faster you know where the armor is weak the faster you can take down the enemy.

I don't see though the reason of making a hardpoint. People are really going to target a location just because that's where ECM is? How often does someone shoot out a torso to take out AMS? If one is to shoot out a location it's to take out weapons or engine, not a piece of equipment.

Glad to see though they are not changing ECM much, it might get annoying when you get swarmed by ECM mechs but it really adds to the game the need for scouts and teamwork.

[Vassago Rain]

Vassago Rain, on 03 April 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

I'm gonna bring out my crystalball again. Due to needless whining over a system that worked, and instead of adding fun stuff to let you cut through it/mod the system/customize your mechs, we get locked ECM modules.

This will result in at least one full ****** mech with ECM in the leg, or an atlas with it locked in the left arm, which screws over builds that were established 8 months ago. Which makes these mechs unpopular. Which makes warbosses rarer than they already are, while the ECM mechs without ******** hardpoint locks (you know one raven will not have it locked in a silly place) become the new hotness.

Then you'll all complain, but the former warbosses will be too busy poptarting in our highlanders to care this time.

Feel free to quote me on this in a month, when they throw in this change.

I cannot stress this enough. This one change will likely ruin the game, and wipe out most players mech collections. Enjoy forcing this.

I know I won't when they lock ECM to my DDC's leg, thus ruining my ammo bins, and making the whole thing virtually useless. But we'll have...more jump jetting PPC/gauss snipers? That's lots of fun.

This is why I didn't spend a single coin on this game during the beta phase. I knew you'd force something like this to 'change the meta.'

[Gwaihir]

ECM has been of declining relevance for months now, and is basically relegated to a niche for scouting lights, and for streak immunity. Now that streaks are fixed down to non-god tier levels (They could still stand to go back to tracking strength 10 instead of the guaranteed hit of strength 100), even that's of marginal utility. The outrageously outsized community overreaction to ECM is just another red herring that should not be considered when attempting to work up deep meaningful game systems.

[Kristov Kerensky]

I've never actually viewed ECM as being OP, so I've never had any real issues with how it works. Then again, I do tend to hit what I aim for, with the exception of the 3L before they fixed it's hitboxes, so taking out the ECM Lights wasn't a big issue..unless it was a flock of Raven 3Ls..which would be just as deadly without ECM so that's not really the issue.

I DID have an issue with it blocking friendly IFF, so it's nice to see that being looked at.

With the rewind state on lasers and the hitbox fix on Ravens, I find lots of Raven pilots are actually really bad pilots who've been relying on a bug to stay alive and appear to be really good. I've even been accused of hacking by a 3L pilot who stood still and let me headshot him because, and I quote the actual fool in question, 'the Raven can't be killed, the forums say so!'.

With the rewind state going in for ballistics on the 16th, I think you'll find those pesky annoying Lights with ECM to be even less of a problem then you find them now..or maybe not, since it would appear many people still can't aim. I don't drive a Raven of any flavor, got Master in them, but I find them slow to manuever. I much prefer the Spider 5D for my Scout Mech, and with it I find that 3Ls and 2Ds are actually rather easy to kill..and I don't leg them, I take out their CT or head with my 2 meds and 1 mpl..lasers HIT what you aim at now, so if you can aim you can kill them quickly enough that their Streaks, which now no longer rip us apart due to bugs, just aren't that great at taking my Spider apart..and I've learned how to break Streak locks via movement

I do enjoy legging them with my bigger Mechs using gauss or erppcs or lasers, simply because it's FUN to watch them suddenly realize they are about to die and die badly. I experience that same feeling in my Spider when it gets legged, so I savor it even more when I'm doing it, I'm a SoB that way

[armchairyoda]

Ter Ushaka, on 03 April 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

ECM already has many counters, PPC's, TAG, ECCM mode, and just straight out blowing up the mech(s) that's jamming your team. Players need to learn how to counter ECM, it is not God Mode.

WHOA WHOA WHOA....

I thought ECM was OP?

[Tombstoner]

Buddahcjcc, on 03 April 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Theyve been telling us since they put it in that it was working as intended.
They looked into it to appease the people that were calling for a nerf
Their conclusions? Its working as intended.

Well, there goes any hope for the timeline, we get Angel ECM and Null Sig in 3050. Can I get a Longbow then since the timeline is out the window?

Working as intended is a nebulous statement. i see it as ECM will force people to purchase planed consumables that counter ECM. With MC items having the best affect. o yea ECM is working as intended. you gonna choke hold your own game.

[Arcturious]

Quote

ECM should not cut out friendly signatures on the battlefield. Friendly Mechs should always be identifiable and not obscure team play.

That line there is the most critically important part of the whole update. I think if ECM still let you determine who is enemy and who is friend 99% of the issues with ECM will go away.

I'm one of those few who have had no problems with ECM since introduction. I think it was an incredible and necessary addition to the game. However, the sheer amount of friendly fire and watching people ignoring ECM mechs while spectating has shown that not everyone understands and can compensate for ECM.

That one major change will fix it I believe for all the players who had difficulty.

[Asakara]

Royalewithcheese, on 03 April 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

On the subject of the 3-L, Garth has been dropping hints that that particular variant may be nerfed.

Citation?

I saw the post where he said that the person who wanted buffs for the 2X and 4X may be pleased soon. I did not see any mention that the 3L will be nerfed.

[JSparrowist]

I don't believe that ECM is OP as some say, but it does offer way to much for way to little.

I think at the very least the weight and crit slot requirements should be increased...perhaps the cost to. On the other hand, PGI, you could make BAP an ECM counter. Just saying.

[Metafox]

I agree with Paul that ECM has introduced some positive elements to the gameplay. Unfortunately, ECM has also introduced some problems which weren't mentioned in the command chair post.

For one thing, ECM is still worth way more than the 1.5 tons and 2 crits that it takes. As a result, any mech that can equip ECM is automatically superior to a comparable mech or variant without ECM. I assume that the developers would like each mech and variant to be well-balanced and competitive, so I was disappointed to see this issue left out of the command chair post.

The other problem is how ECM interacts with streak missiles. Before the missile nerf, in a light vs. light confrontation, the side with the most ECM would win. This is because the side with the most ECM gets to use all of their streak missiles, while the side with less ECM gets no streak missiles. Streak missiles were an issue because they completely nullify a light's agility and small size by hitting almost every time. Adding ECM compounded the issue by creating an all-or-nothing scenario where survival or defeat was predetermined by a single piece of equipment. Things have been better after the missile nerf, but missile damage is supposedly going back up so things will probably swing back out of balance pretty soon.

I appreciate Paul's efforts to communicate about ECM, but I find it disconcerting that the developers are apparently not comfortable talking about the problems with ECM.

Edited by Metafox, 03 April 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[Corbon Zackery]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Kerensky, on 03 April 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

ecm should be equippable on any mech. I'm tired of the 3L being king of the lights

If they did that everyone would have one equipped. At the current setting anyone would be a fool not to save 1.5 tons for ECM.

ECM is suppose to be a rare experimental thing it would be better to make it a module slot with a 15,000 GXP cost and a 3,000,000 c-bill cost then it becomes a pay to play, Pay to win option like coolant, artillery, and airstrikes. A powerful weapon less seen on the battlefield when it shows up its a game changer.

This way the Developers can stay in lazy mode since they don't have to make any changes.

[Vassago Rain]

Metafox, on 03 April 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

I agree with Paul that ECM has introduced some positive elements to the gameplay. Unfortunately, ECM has also introduced some problems which weren't mentioned in the command chair post.

For one thing, ECM is still worth may more than the 1.5 tons and 2 crits that it takes. As a result, any mech that can equip ECM is automatically superior to a comparable mech or variant without ECM. I assume that the developers would like each mech and variant to be well-balanced and competitive, so I was disappointed to see this issue left out of the command chair post.

The other problem is how ECM interacts with streak missiles. Before the missile nerf, in a light vs. light confrontation, the side with the most ECM would win. This is because the side with the most ECM gets to use all of their streak missiles, while the side with less ECM gets no streak missiles. Streak missiles were an issue because they completely nullify a light's agility and small size by hitting almost every time. Adding ECM compounded the issue by creating an all-or-nothing scenario where survival or defeat was predetermined by a single piece of equipment. Things have been better after the missile nerf, but missile damage is supposedly going back up so things will probably swing back out of balance pretty soon.

I appreciate Paul's efforts to communicate about ECM, but I find it disconcerting that the developers are apparently not comfortable talking about the problems with ECM.

ECM is worth as much as the wielder, which isn't a whole lot, considering how much whining there is. Oh my god, you can't tell your own ravens to go counter? The atlas doesn't know to keep on counter when he's walking through the tunnel, so he doesn't alert everybody?

I think you'll have a lot of fun when we all line up with our PPCs and gauss rifles in a month.

[Ragor]

I still would love to see GECM not stacking.
-> One GECM on counter mode would disable ALL hostile GECM in range.
-> it would be more important to use GECM properly regarding the positiong on the battlefield and not only which team has more GECM.

[Vassago Rain]

Corbon Zackery, on 03 April 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

If they did that everyone would have one equipped. At the current setting anyone would be a fool not to save 1.5 tons for ECM.

ECM is suppose to be a rare experimental thing it would be better to make it a module slot with a 15,000 GXP cost and a 3,000,000 c-bill cost then it becomes a pay to play, Pay to win option like coolant, artillery, and airstrikes. A powerful weapon less seen on the battlefield when it shows up its a game changer.

This way the Developers can stay in lazy mode since they don't have to make any changes.

No, it's not raid gear. Stop pretending it is.

[shintakie]

Corbon Zackery, on 03 April 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

If they did that everyone would have one equipped. At the current setting anyone would be a fool not to save 1.5 tons for ECM.

ECM is suppose to be a rare experimental thing it would be better to make it a module slot with a 15,000 GXP cost and a 3,000,000 c-bill cost then it becomes a pay to play, Pay to win option like coolant, artillery, and airstrikes. A powerful weapon less seen on the battlefield when it shows up its a game changer.

This way the Developers can stay in lazy mode since they don't have to make any changes.

Well, yeah thats the point. If its goin to remain in its state then it should at least be usable by everyone instead of shovelin people into specific variants.