1089 replies to this topic

[Haitchpeasauce]

Quote

[ECM] a very frightful piece of equipment that is powerful and versitle while at the same time has its weaknesses

After reading Paul's response I feel like we're wasting our time trying to give feedback about an item carefully explained to be unbalanced.

[Chunkylad]

My only issue with the current implementation of the "Guardian" ECM is that it better fits the description of what "Angel" ECM is supposed to do. If the current implementation of Guardian was scaled to a single mech and Angel was added to do what the current ECM does, personally I think things would be much more balanced. Make Angel ECM accessible in the same fashion current ECM is and broaden Guardian to those that are meant to have it.

[sheepr]

ECM should not require a dedicated hardpoint. I'm curious how much difference something like that could make. I think that decision might be a bit extreme until the other changes to ECM are implemented and tested.

[Rofl]

Ramsess, on 03 April 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3] Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.^[4]
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes
http://www.sarna.net...i/Stealth_Armor

BattleMech Stealth Armor provides as much protection as standard armor. It takes up two critical slots in each arm, leg, and side torso. To work, it also requires the 'Mech to carry a Guardian ECM Suite.^[1]
The system can be activated or deactivated in the End Phase of any turn. When active the system builds up 10 heat points, and is affected as if it is in range of an enemy ECM Suite. Any unit attacking a BattleMech with active Stealth Armor gets a +1 hit penalty at medium range and a +2 hit penalty at long range. The Stealth Armored BattleMech cannot be a secondary target while the system is active.



Now tell me PGI where you went out of your way to make that into what it is currently ingame....

I think the current ECM system, if it took up an additional 2 hard points per location and used up 10 heat, would be fine. If Vassago can't handle it, he can L2P. It'll work on my raven, bro! Must be you who can't adapt.

[Chavette]

Sounds like you are nerfing all lights because ECM lights are strong.

This won't change the fact that the strongest/most popular variants of a mech will be the ECM ones.

What exactly are you addressing here?

[IdolElite]

A way to possibly fix ECM would be to make it like Jump Jets with a limited time of use. Maybe not so short a time as JJs but make it not be an always on thing.

Also anyone who doesn't think ECM needs some serious work hasn't tried piloting an LRM boat recently. Between ECM and the LRM nerfs my boat hasn't succeeded at anything except getting blown up in months.

[Roadbeer]

ECM isn't unbalanced

Y'all are.

[Dan Nashe]

OH, follow up:

ECM should not jam your tag allowing you to shoot missiles. Just your teammates.
This is is critical to allow LRMs or streaks to even exist in game. I won't touch missiles anymore unless I have ECM to at least run counter. [If only so I can shoot at that catapult 750 meters away.].

As someone mentioned, a PPC is not long enough to fire missiles.

You could of course also triple the speed of LRMs. That would do it too ;-).


I should also mention that while I can tolerate ECM, there is something wrong with the meta when a *core* of the game requires you to bring X number of a small subset of mechs.

You cannot afford to have a Raven and lose the ECM war. So the instant you bring ONE streak light mech, you must bring ALL ECM light mechs to the game. [2 ravens will beat 1 raven + 1 jenner all the time].

["Ok, so a team should consist of 1-3 raven 3Ls, and 9-11 "other mechs"." Do you see the problem with the metagame here?] "How many raven 3Ls and DDCs should we have on our team?"

By making ECM the single most game changing piece of equipment, and then limiting it to a tiny fraction of the light mechs and one non-light mech . . . the meta looks crazy.

Now, if the *point* of bringing most light mechs was ECM, the meta looks better.
I.e., imagine Raven 3L was slower (same speed as other ravens) and all lights had ECM except jenners. [The lowered speed *both* makes the spider/flea/commando (with raised speed) more viable and helps better define the jenner's niche. ]

Now the meta question is "how many light mechs do we bring? or should we bring Jenners to counter lights and rely on superior firepower?"

See how that's a better meta?

[Note, the DDC being unique is ok, for now. Especially because it is limited to defensive use. I would, however, look into somehow altering the DDC/D/K balance. Right now it feels like there are only 2 valid assault choices in 8 man, DDC & RS]

[Kaldor]

Its a step in the right direction. Still not enough to bring me back.

However, unless the Raven 3L gets a nerf, (speed?) its still the best ECM variant and the best light in the game. There is no other reason to play any other variant in all reality. Even then the Commando and Spider still need love like a speed boost to give them something they can do better against the same speed, but better armed and armored lights

Im still on board with buffing the BAP to cut into ECM signature. Someone also posted an excellent idea in this thread about making one ECM module able to defeat multiple ECMs to combat the ECM arms race, excellent idea.

[StalaggtIKE]

Peiper, on 03 April 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

And if ECM isn't broken, then let every mech take it. Or, at least, don't let it be put on anything larger than 40 tons...

Exactly. If we're going to continue with the delusion that ECM will now be fixed, then allow all mechs to equip it.

Quote

I'm happy to see that it's not going to block my identifying my own teammates, but you still don't get the point, PGI...

I don't like to sound so disjointed in my posts, but I'm under the (delusion?) that what I say here might mean something to someone and I MIGHT be able to shed some light/sway opinion, but this leaves me rather dejected and hopeless.

PGI, this time you're wrong. Just admit it, redesign ECM to act as it should and you won't have to worry about giving it hit points, coming up with STUPID 'counters,' specific hardpoints, TAG or whatever other crap you've done to try to justify it's existence as NOT broken. And ECM is supposed to jam NARC and TAG (built into C3 computers). It's so far from what it SHOULD be that it doesn't resemble itself. It's like calling a man a woman when you're really looking at a tree. That's how far off it is. If you're going to have a cloaking device, then call it that.

"ComStar Area Cloaking Device"

Then we can all just say fugg it and go support a company that is making a battletech game and not whatever goofed up crap it is that you're trying to sell us under the banner of 'mechwarrior.'

Well stated. The fact it has all these counters, health points and soon a hardpoint is simply ridiculous.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 03 April 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[Nonsense]

Note that I haven't played organized competitive 8v8, so I don't know about ECM in that sense.

That said, ECM is fine IMO, and I agree with the general sentiment of the post. The one thing the post COMPLETELY ignores, however, is what ECM's sensor cloaking does to PUG organization.

The game badly needs a fast non-voice comms "spotting" mechanism of some kind to alert teammates of things you can see visually but not with sensors. PUGs would be a lot more fun this way.

[StalaggtIKE]

Nonsense, on 03 April 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

The game badly needs a fast non-voice comms "spotting" mechanism of some kind to alert teammates of things you can see visually but not with sensors. PUGs would be a lot more fun this way.

DING! DING! DING!

Edit: What better way to alert your oblivious ally that a mech is attempting to flank you all, than a bright red box around the target. It's not like you're already starring right at the Atlas. Nope pugs are confined to posting over and over again in chat, "Atlas coming from E5! ...E5! ...E5!"

Oh, and before someone post, "you need radar to see the enemy!"
Sure, and apparently you need ECM to help you flank.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 03 April 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Stop wasting your time. This game is going to die if as Garth said they only have a few thousand players playing at any given time. Its not sustainable.

I really just dont understand why this took 5 months? None of the things he talked about waiting for are worthwhile. Even the people who like ECM admit the adv sensor mod and PPC disabling ECM suck.

We all knew state rewind was coming along with netcode fixes as well.

So why drag this out and ask for a feeeback post, just to ignore it?

Once again terrible decision making and wasting the time and good will of your playerbase.

Next time just make one post.

"We like it, dont expect anything. "

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 03 April 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[Klaa]

My first purchased mech was a Commando: Deaths Knell and I bought the ECM variant when I was grinding both chassis to master. The ecm variant has mostly missile hardpoints, so naturally I used streaks. Thus been running around before ECM was added; though, one can argue success was more due to the lag shield. In many ways both are true, and it was silly to be able to run circles among 4-5 mechs cutting em to ribbons.

Now with better counters to ECM plus improved hit detection, I have found myself reverting to the typical tactics of a light: Flanking, hit-and-run, going after solo mechs, cap flags while others brawl, etc.

I like to entertain the notion I am good with em. Typically get higher dmg rates and survive longer even with the non ECM Death's Knell.

As the OP mentions there's more changes coming to hit detection, so its a little difficult to pass judgment on weapon performance when we haven't even yet seen how weapons perform in a manner intended by the Devs.

Three words: Direct fire weapons

[100 Tonne]

Im so glad that they have clarified their position on ECM. Now I don't have to spend any MC/CBills on the highlander, as the DDC is the only assault that can have ECM. Sorry to sound so negative but they just don't understand how game changing ECM is, it is not just that missiles can not get a lock, it is that ECM hides Mechs and their load out as well as providing protection against LRM's and SSRM's for ALL the nearby mechs. And makes all other Mechs in that class redundant. Why would I take my Founders atlas or my "K"(with 2 AMS's) when the DDC provides so much extra value with no down side? And the same is with lights or the cicada .

[Trauglodyte]

ECM is ok. I'm not going to say that it is fine but it is ok. I think that the surrounding equipment (BAP and NARC) could use some sort of help to assist players with how ECM works. Extending sensors by +25% doesn't do anything when ECM reduces all sensors by 75%. Its similar to being able to detect shut down mechs within 120m - it does me no good when my target over heats at 300+ yards. So, nerfing ECM isn't something that I'd like to see. Let's stop the complaining and work towards helping out the papers weights that aren't doing anything.

[Ghost_19Hz]

• ECM should not cut out friendly signatures on the battlefield. Friendly Mechs should always be identifiable and not obscure team play.

[Relic1701]

ECM in TT counters...

• Artemis IV FCS
  
• BAP
  
• NARC
  
• C3

ECM in TT is countered by...

• TAG

Traditionally, in TT, ECM disrupted long range scanning & surveillance equipment, it did not effect the ability to fire weapons (except for the negation of the bonuses granted by AFCS & Narc)



ECM in MWO counters...

• LRM's (unless used with TAG)
  
• Artemis IV FCS
  
• SSRM's
  
• BAP
  
• NARC
  
• Target information relay (you can't lock on)

ECM in MWO is countered by...

• ECM
  
• PPC (if you are lucky, for 4 secs)
  
• TAG (if you can keep it trained on target long enough for LRM's to hit)

In MWO, ECM makes LRM's & SSRM's effectively obsolete, and as many have stated before (and probably after), why bring an AS7-D when you can bring a D-DC, why bring a JR7-D (or any light) when you can bring RVN-3L (or any other ECM light). Personally I don't use ECM, I hope I never have to, but in the direction things seem to be moving, I will be forced to, just to be competitive.


Move BAP or NARC (or both with restrictions/exceptions) to the 'is countered by' section, and we might be getting somewhere.

Edited by Relic1701, 04 April 2013 - 05:26 AM.

[Deathlike]

I almost want a "troll call" or some sort of "call to arms", similar to that epic video with Brian and knockdowns.

The idea would be to literally use ONLY ECM based mechs when PGI is out there. Keep using it until they figure out how bad their ECM implementation is.

That is almost fundamentally the only way to get them to understand the problem that is their ECM implementation.

Heck, I would like a dev to spend a day in a Spider-5K with 4 MGs with an energy weapon of their choice. I want to let them know how BAD MGs are. Maybe we should do a similar thing with 5K too... just for fun.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

As already mentioned in this thread:

ECM is far too useful for a 1.5 ton piece of equipment.

The upcoming changes to ECM do not nearly alter this situation.

The variant that can mount ECM is automatically the variant you want on you team.

Not having any ECM on your team is a severe disadvantage.

PGI: Play your own game.