1089 replies to this topic

[Kreisel]

Well, at least it's something, It's a step in the right direction. A big one, but concerning PGI continues to insist this is close to what they want.

• While 4 seconds can feel like a long time in game... it's barely enough time for a weapon lock, and it is not enough time for LRM to reach a target past 400M. Considering you need to lock 1st, then launch or it wont lock mid-flight. 4 Seconds is not enough time for LRM to reach outside the 200-250 band you can target with advanced sensor mod anyway.
  
• Advanced Sensor mod helped a lot, but it still feels too small an area to work in.
  
• What is more problematic is advanced players have ways of countering ECM, but it effects the new player experience the most, and TAG, ECM, Advanced Sensor Mod are not something you can get in a trail mech. And the PPC emp effect is too obscure and skill dependent for new players to get much out of it.
  
• The only counters for ECM are not smart play, they are special gear and thus a new player has no way of dealing with ECM.

I'm going to say the same thing I've said over and over... I don't care how you accomplish it PGI, but ECM is going to feel off until these criteria are met.
1. AMS not ECM is the go to equipment to deter missiles
2. Lock on systems have a way of countering ECM through smart play and are not wholly dependent on specialized equipment, or modules to attack a mech with ECM.
3. ECM abilities are somewhere in line with the other equipment you could take instead of ECM, making it a real choice if you want to put ECM on that mech or not: BAP, AMS, TAG, Narc, Command Consule (Once implemented), Jump Jets. As it stands, you might as well forget with the ECM hardpoint and just make the Mech with it come pre-installed internal structure you can't move.

[Vapor Trail]

Marcus Tanner, on 03 April 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

You know, It looks as if I've been talking past the developers this whole time.

ECM is supposed to be a game-changer.

ECM is supposed to be so good that every mech would take it if they could.

Um... Not from TT.

ECM is supposed to be the reset button.

Beagle, Artemis, NARC, and C3 are supposed to be the "Game Changers."

Guardian is the counter to those technologies.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 03 April 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[Marcus Tanner]

Some people way back in the thread were wondering where the hardpoint for ECM would be on the 3L.

SPOILER ALERT:
It'll be in the one place that would make the stock Raven 3L a legal configuration.

Edited by Marcus Tanner, 03 April 2013 - 05:38 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Kreisel, on 03 April 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Well, at least it's something, It's a step in the right direction. A big one, but concerning PGI continues to insist this is close to what they want.

• While 4 seconds can feel like a long time in game... it's barely enough time for a weapon lock, and it is not enough time for LRM to reach a target past 400M. Considering you need to lock 1st, then launch or it wont lock mid-flight. 4 Seconds is not enough time for LRM to reach outside the 200-250 band you can target with advanced sensor mod anyway.
  
• Advanced Sensor mod helped a lot, but it still feels too small an area to work in.
  
• What is more problematic is advanced players have ways of countering ECM, but it effects the new player experience the most, and TAG, ECM, Advanced Sensor Mod are not something you can get in a trail mech. And the PPC emp effect is too obscure and skill dependent for new players to get much out of it.
  
• The only counters for ECM are not smart play, they are special gear and thus a new player has no way of dealing with ECM.

I'm going to say the same thing I've said over and over... I don't care how you accomplish it PGI, but ECM is going to feel off until these criteria are met.

1. AMS not ECM is the go to equipment to deter missiles
2. Lock on systems have a way of countering ECM through smart play and are not wholly dependent on specialized equipment, or modules to attack a mech with ECM.
3. ECM abilities are somewhere in line with the other equipment you could take instead of ECM, making it a real choice if you want to put ECM on that mech or not: BAP, AMS, TAG, Narc, Command Consule (Once implemented), Jump Jets. As it stands, you might as well forget with the ECM hardpoint and just make the Mech with it come pre-installed internal structure you can't move.

The point is to hit the mech more than once with ppcs....Do people just stop firing them after hitting?

[Marcus Tanner]

Vapor Trail, on 03 April 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Um... Not from TT.

ECM is supposed to be the reset button.

Beagle, Artemis, NARC, and C3 are supposed to be the "Game Changers."

Guardian is the counter to those technologies.

Oh yes, I agree that the tabletop method of having the advanced tech be good and ECM be the reset button would be the better design decision. But that's not what PGI has in mind.

I haven't a clue as to why they wanted to screw with that relationship, but they definitely do and they like it this way.

[StalaggtIKE]

Well at least we know they will be buffing LRM back to crazy levels to justify the existence of ECM. Yay! /sarcasm

Caleb Lee, on 03 April 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

If they do give everyone stealth armor, they should at least get rid of null signature so people can call A, B, C, D, E etc... since let's face it, the team/commander tools and communication outside of voice (TS/Vent) is pretty bad.

THIS.

[FupDup]

Marcus Tanner, on 03 April 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

It'll be where the ECM is on the standard Raven 3L, which is to say the left torso.

So that's what they call the Center Torso these days?

[Vapor Trail]

hammerreborn, on 03 April 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

The point is to hit the mech more than once with ppcs....Do people just stop firing them after hitting?

Generally firing a single PPC once every four seconds, non-stop requires twenty-seven single heat sink equivalents.

Anything less and you have to stop eventually. And if you want to shoot anything else...

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

hammerreborn, on 03 April 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

You mean as popular as the spider D, the cicada 3M, and the commando 2D, which barely anyone uses?

If ECM was so broken people would be running all of them as much as D-DCs.

When was the last time you have seen a nonECM variant of any of those mechs? The ECM versions show up regularly.

[Past]

When do we find out where the hardpoints will be? I only have 1 ecm mech the Atlas DDC with the ECM in the centre torso if i have to move it from there due to the build having no free critical slots left it would likely break the build by making me place caseless ammo in stupid spots or possibly make my dual lbx-10's no longer fit.

[hammerreborn]

Eldragon, on 03 April 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

When was the last time you have seen a nonECM variant of any of those mechs? The ECM versions show up regularly.

I see 1Bs/deaths knells far more often than 2Ds these days, spiders are just non-existant no matter what way you look at it, RSs and Ds are seen all the time and the RS appears to be the new Atlas type compared to the D-DC, and X-5s are far, far more prevalant than the 3M

The spider and the raven are unique that the other two variants are complete garbage, mainly due to machine guns also being garbage (making the K and the 4x?) useless by comparison. That and that the 2 raven varients can't even equip 250 engines which are the de facto minimum engine for nearly every build for getting you 20 double heat sinks.

Edited by hammerreborn, 03 April 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[Deathlike]

Refer to this post:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2182419

Give an informed decision by giving it to PGI.

[Silentium]

hammerreborn, on 03 April 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

The point is to hit the mech more than once with ppcs....Do people just stop firing them after hitting?

It seems to me the counter boils down to "shoot the mech with ecm." Why muck with a PPC when successive shots with any weapon will effectively do the same thing in short order?

What I read in that whole announcement is that the counter to ECM is....aiming, and ECM. Well duh! hitting mechs with weapons counters just about any piece of equipment, provided you land enough shots.

[Marcus Tanner]

Silentium, on 03 April 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

Well duh! hitting mechs with weapons counters just about any piece of equipment, provided you land enough shots.

I think I may have found a signature-worthy comment...

[StalaggtIKE]

Silentium, on 03 April 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

Well duh! hitting mechs with weapons counters just about any piece of equipment, provided you land enough shots quickly enough.

Fixed.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 03 April 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[Mawai]

hammerreborn, on 03 April 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

The reason for it is that you can aim for the torso part the ECM is in. Right now ECM could be in any torso, making its 3 hp kinda negligible because you first have to find it. Now you know exactly where to shoot to disable it (because it dies nearly as fast as a guass)

Every mech that uses ECM (except the Atlas) runs an XL engine. Coring any torso segment will shut down the ECM about as fast as trying to target the module ... so I don't think this change will have a significant impact except possibly against an Atlas D-DC

[Vapor Trail]

Silentium, on 03 April 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

It seems to me the counter boils down to "shoot the mech with ecm." Why muck with a PPC when successive shots with any weapon will effectively do the same thing in short order?

What I read in that whole announcement is that the counter to ECM is....aiming, and ECM. Well duh! hitting mechs with weapons counters just about any piece of equipment, provided you land enough shots.

^^^ this

PPC rebooting ECM isn't going to make ECM less useful overall. It's not going to speed it's demise significantly unless the ECM pilot was trying to hide in the first place. It's just going to shut it off for four seconds. If you can keep the ECM shut off with a PPC long enough for someone to lock LRMs, fire, and track all the way in, then you're likely to kill any ECM mech, with the exception of the DDC, in short order.

[Mawai]

The Raven 3L is the best light mech presently due to ECM. Since ECM Is not changing ... would it be possible to change the 3L? Perhaps by reducing its top speed to 125kph or so (with speed tweak factored in)?

[Vapor Trail]

Mawai, on 03 April 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Every mech that uses ECM (except the Atlas) runs an XL engine. Coring any torso segment will shut down the ECM about as fast as trying to target the module ... so I don't think this change will have a significant impact except possibly against an Atlas D-DC

I tend to put my ECM in my legs... But I run a Cicada which has weapon mounts in the CT.

[Royalewithcheese]

And even in a DDC, the loss of ECM for 4 seconds is less relevant than the fact that somebody is repeatedly shooting you with PPCs.