1089 replies to this topic

[General Taskeen]

Xerionox, on 03 April 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

It shouldn't be a requirement. It is advanced and expensive equipment given to warriors who prove themselves.

Bolded the key issue with balance in this game. A piece of gear should never be a requirement. And it should never be a requirement to equip a counter in a F2P game.

[Marcus Tanner]

ECM is still the best usage of tonnage and crits in the game.

- It's is a better anti-missile system than AMS.
- It's is far more effective than its counterpart, Beagle. Line up the two and you'd be nuts to call them the same.
- There's a chassis restriction on the item. I have yet to see a game where that has been an effective balancing mechanic. A chassis restriction makes the item appear less frequently, but doesn't make it less effective.
- It takes the design space of other items (beyond AMS of course). There's not much of a role for null-signature systems, stealth armor, or Angel ECM with this thing around.
- It messes with the yomi to have a mechanic be its own best counter.
- The players supposedly hit hardest are the new players. The weapons most affected are this games "noob tube" weapons. It seems odd to make a mechanic aimed squarely at frustrating new players.
- It has a laundry list of abilities and counters, which is something I've never seen on an appropriately balanced game element.
- It's a "you don't get to have your fun" denial-type mechanic, and those are rarely if ever balanced well.
- If good teamwork and avoiding lock-on weapons were effective counters, then you wouldn't see any ECM in 8v8 play. Not only is this not the case, but it would defeat the purpose of the item if it were true.

I don't know about you guys, but these seem like red flags to me.

---

We now have some reasoning behind what ECM is intended to do, and that is to encourage brawls over sniper fights by cutting off LRMs and making it easier to sneak up on enemies.

This seems strange to me because most of the features of ECM don't line up with that goal. It seems you could get the same result or better by simply reducing the standard sensor range instead of having ECM reduce it. That way *every* mech has an easier time sneaking around and making it to a brawl regardless of who has ECM. There are better ways of getting to that design goal.

The other design goal in there is that they are looking for depth of play by making it a powerful game element that you can use or work around (and that should take strategy to use or counter effectively). There seem to be two camps on this, judging by the thread:

- Some players think it's nuts to have the game revolve around ECM when adding it to a mech has such a trivial cost.
- Other players don't seem to notice ECM, meaning that for them it isn't as central as PGI intended it to be in their experience.

In either case, I don't think that it's adding the depth of play that was intended. In my experience, I enjoyed the depth of play that came with the spotter/support dynamic and that is much harder to pull off since ECM and the "incoming missile" warning were introduced. The most enjoyable "teamwork moments" of my MWO play experience are increasingly difficult to achieve as the game progresses.

[Odanan]

ECM would be closer to balance if it just made targets slightly harder to target and lock.

It's a 1.5 tons piece of equipment, for God's sake.

PS: you will know they are balanced when you see Ravens 3L running without it. Or Atlas D-DC with Beagle, instead of ECM.

PPS: ECMs should not have the counter feature. Give it to Commando Console instead and you will have a real counter.

[Caleb Lee]

AlexEss, on 03 April 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

to be honest the only real problem with ECM right now is the ECM+Streak combo. Outside of that it is perfectly fine.

In my personal opinion.

Umm... yeah, personal opinion.

Personal opinion here as well, I don't think ECM should blanket 'stealth armor' for all mechs under it's umbrella. It should have been only on those mechs that are ECM.

If they do give everyone stealth armor, they should at least get rid of null signature so people can call A, B, C, D, E etc... since let's face it, the team/commander tools and communication outside of voice (TS/Vent) is pretty bad.

[ArmyOfWon]

Even with the proposed changes, ECM isn't a decision. You either have it or play a different chassis. It is the single most useful 1.5 tons on a mech today.

If you make it such that ECM is an actual choice then there would be no reason to restrict ECM use to any specific chassis.

A couple months ago I suggested decoupling targeting enemies and sharing information. If you were to share all enemies within LOS (excluding ECM sheilded mechs and their teammates) and be able to target anyone within LOS (including ECM sheilded mechs) it would immediately bring a better balanced to ECM (and open up an actual decision!)

Edit: Saw an interesting idea (with the current incarnation of ECM) I liked so I'll reiterate: Command Console acts as anti-ECM, but this wouldn't be necessary with my earlier suggestions.

Edited by ArmyOfWon, 03 April 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[ExAstris]

I had to come back and make sure the posts dates were right.

I would have found it much it much more believable that the Titan Class was announced today and the ECM update we just got was posted Monday.

Sadly, that is not the case.

[Thuzel]

Peiper, on 03 April 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

I'm happy to see that it's not going to block my identifying my own teammates, but you still don't get the point, PGI...

I don't like to sound so disjointed in my posts, but I'm under the (delusion?) that what I say here might mean something to someone and I MIGHT be able to shed some light/sway opinion, but this leaves me rather dejected and hopeless.

PGI, this time you're wrong. Just admit it, redesign ECM to act as it should and you won't have to worry about giving it hit points, coming up with STUPID 'counters,' specific hardpoints, TAG or whatever other crap you've done to try to justify it's existence as NOT broken. And ECM is supposed to jam NARC and TAG (built into C3 computers). It's so far from what it SHOULD be that it doesn't resemble itself. It's like calling a man a woman when you're really looking at a tree. That's how far off it is. If you're going to have a cloaking device, then call it that.

"ComStar Area Cloaking Device"

Then we can all just say fugg it and go support a company that is making a battletech game and not whatever goofed up crap it is that you're trying to sell us under the banner of 'mechwarrior.'

This.

ECM has turned this game into nothing but direct damage and removed LRMs as an effective support weapon in almost all cases. Every mech capable of carrying it does so, and every mech with a variant that supports it sees the use of non-ecm variants drastically reduced. 80% of the time when I see an atlas, it's a D-DC. 80% of the time I see a raven, it's a 3L. 80% of the time I see a spider, it's a 5D.....

ECM has made this game flatter, more boring, and has almost neutered an entire class of weapon. Honestly, the fact that support mechs now spend most of their time self-tagging targets should be a major clue that something is seriously wrong. As well, the "counters" that have been released for it are laughable and don't address most of it's usage scenarios.

In short, ECM has greatly detracted from this game's lifespan, and my (and my friend's) time in-game reflects that ever since it was released. Playing MWO is now an option for me only after I've done everything else. In fact, actually playing MWO in this state is less interesting than browsing and posting in these forums, and that really says something.

Edited by Thuzel, 03 April 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[Bors Mistral]

I don't think ECM is too too broken as it is right now. Just a bit, a thing or two or three about it...
However...

Niko Snow, on 03 April 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

As mentioned above, the ECM really only affects 2 weapon systems.

The real problem for me is that its umbrella severely limits the ability to call targets.

[Buffalo Six]

after reading that "update" to the ECM issues........my feed back is that Paul is not playing the same game we are and is so full of himself that no matter what we the actual players of MWO suggest or point out.....he will reject it out of hand. Its sad actually.

you think ECM is bad now? Wait until the clan tech ECM comes out......shakes head

[MasterBLB]

Guys (and ladies),I'm starting to think only adamant action taken by community will crack through theirs concrete skulls it's WE WHO PLAY THE GAME,AND IS UP TO US HOW WE WISH TO PLAY IT.AND WE ARE NOT HAPPY WITH CURRENT ECM IMPLEMENTATION.
They showed clearly that all reasonable dialog attempts from us is doomed to faild,sadly...

If so,I propose to all of community who wants ECM be bring back to it canonical version to COMPLETELY BOYCOTT Mechwarrior Online for a week at the beginning.It mean absolutely NO LOGING AND NO PLAY,and overall,NO PURCHASING MCs.
Let's stand tight together,it is we,community the game is making for.Without US,they are finished.Let's show them if they are really going to do things against our wishes,it'll have a price.
But be aware that we have to group with the action if we want it to succeed.

Edited by MasterBLB, 03 April 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[Voidsinger]

A few issues:

OMNIDIRECTIONALITY

The Guardian is the only 360 degree electronic device in the game. Radar has an arc, BAP has an arc, TAG is LoS. Only the 360 degree targeting module doesn't, and this is limited to track and retain target.

JAM ONE, JAM ALL.

Major issue. ECM isn't a blob that occurs. Each mech would need its own radar frequency to avoid issues with allies. Yet GECM manages to not only do an IFF comparison to choose your enemies without seeing them, but can jam all at once, in a subtle enough way that its own electronic signal isn't detectable. That's phenomenal power.

NO BURN THROUGH.

If a mech is being jammed by ECM, it should be able to up the radar output, and burn through the jamming. This is especially true of BAP equipped units which have what is essentially a 1.5 ton radar amplifier in this game. That should force the ECM to focus on a single signal to jam.

NO MULTISENSOR TARGETING.

Radar isn't the only sensor. Nothing should stop known heat patterns and such from IDing a mech and allowing a lockon. Heat, radiation, jamming. This is especially true of units friendly to the ECM unit being unhindered. Their own radar signals should be targetable and reveal their presence, preventing cloaking. Run silent or run loud.

COUNTERS...AREN'T

The Catapult A1 is unable to mount either of the listed "counters". Mechs like Centurions can't mount PPCs the only point blank solution. Just why does a laser painter hitting a mech suddenly make all information visible (why does radar for that matter?). If your mech can't mount a counter, you are totally reliant on others for the mech design to be viable. Nerf by ECM.

THE LIGHT ISSUE

There is no escape from a wolfpack with a couple of ECM lights. Stackability of ECM guarantees that, as does speed of ECM mechs.

Just a few quick issues that have never been addressed.

Edited by Voidsinger, 03 April 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[Scarcer]

Know what would be fair while carrying ECM? Make the operating variant unable to lock-on with missiles while ECM is in disrupt mode. Ally's how ever are not affected.

[One Medic Army]

They're removing the cloaking of friendly positions.
That's my biggest issue with ECM at the moment.

So: yay!

[dilluminati]

Why even have a feedback thread?
There have been numerous threads explaining issues with the implementation and possible resolutions to these issues, all which have been ignored.

I have never spoken to anyone who is satisfied with the current implementation.
The simple fact is that the game is less fun now because of ECM.

See this reddit thread for more feedback on the issue:
http://www.reddit.co...f_guardian_ecm/

Thanks for listening,
-dillon

[Vapor Trail]

Quote

Putting a PPC shot on an ECM equipped Mech makes them very vulnerable for 4 seconds...

Um. Sorry, but no.

It may increase their visibility for four seconds, but their vulnerability doesn't change much. Mainly because anyone who is going to get a shot on the ECM mech with anything other than Streaks is already shooting at it. LRMs can't lock and track in 4 seconds at ranges greater than around 300m. Streaks can hit reliably, but you pretty much have to have your crosshairs on the mech when the ECM goes down to get the shot. After that its basically "Hey look! there's an enemy mech over there. Maybe we should go shoot it. Now where did it go."

PPC shots don't do diddly against paired ECM. DDC's tend to clump, as do Ravens, Cicadas, and Commandos.

I have one ECM mech, a Cicada. Frankly, some of the best ECM work I do involves keeping my head down and my butt laser burn free. I simply stand near the other mechs and let them crest ridges, poptart, or whatever, and watch the PPC shots come hot and heavy trying to knock down the ECM... but since I'm not exposing myself, it's not gonna happen.

There's been several large changes toward making the game "new-player" or "solo-player" (meaning no voicecomms with team) friendly. The removal of 8-man groups to their own queue is just one of them.

But ECM takes the one thing that allows the "solo-player" the ability to share tactical information in a reliable and quick fashion and rips the heart out of it like a ******. Targeting, and in particular the letter codes, are about the only way a group of thrown together players without voicecomms could coordinate tactically and reliably.

If a way to cover a flanking maneuver is desired, there's no reason to have targeting of a mech covered by ECM limited to such a short distance. 500m (meaning that being the longest range that a mech would be targetable, 5/8ths normal range) is plenty of room to cover a flanking maneuver. There's no need to turn off targeting outside spitting distance.

Indirect LRM fire, I'll agree with ECM putting a leash on that... but even better would be forcing a tactical decision between spotting or firing weapons (other than TAG) onto the spotter. The C3 and C3I units could offer a way around that restriction. By shutting off indirect (and direct) missile targeting, ECM has simply forced every mech with long range missiles to take a TAG, or be forced to rely on teammates with tag while risking being absolutely useless.

ECM is still too much bang for far too little buck.

[Roadbeer]

Feedback is feedback. Doesn't mean that every idea in it was going to be implemented.

Again, I have no problem with ECM, so this time I get to be the odd man out.

[Marcus Tanner]

You know, It looks as if I've been talking past the developers this whole time.

ECM is supposed to be a game-changer.

ECM is supposed to be so good that every mech would take it if they could.

The devs are trying to artificially reduce the ECM population by restricting it to a few kinds of mechs, so that despite being inappropriately powerful there will still only be a few of them on each team. They *know* it's "too good" and that's how they like it.

They want the game to revolve around using ECM well and countering ECM, so to that end they may be willing to reduce some of the ancillary effects, but they won't take away the big thing where it prevents locks. They might be willing to make Narc cut through ECM because that might add some interesting depth of play, but they'll never let Beagle counter it. Beagle is available to everyone who wants to ignore ECM and that would make ECM irrelevant to everyone who cared to ignore it. They won't let the big stealth and fuzzing effect go away because that's what they're after.

They want ECM to be what C3 is in tabletop: when it's on the table you need to play *very* differently to account for it.

PGI doesn't mind that it's controversial: they want the game to revolve around ECM and anti-ECM strategies. They're okay with how good it is. They've put *interesting* team-level play above *balanced* play on a player-by-player basis.

If you're not convinced, just think: no sane human being could believe that ECM and AMS are equally good uses of tonnage. That just isn't plausible. They know and they want it this way.

---

All of that is TERRIBLE game design. With this realization that they really do understand and they're okay with it in mind I may have to re-evaluate how I talk about ECM.

Edited by Marcus Tanner, 04 April 2013 - 04:58 AM.

[Eddrick]

The only problem ECM has realy given me had little to do with ECM at all. It's trying to hit a Light Mech when I am getting less the 10FPS. When I get rid of that issue. ECM will not bother me at all.

Adding a Heardpoint limitation is a nice touch. Means very little to me. But, a nice touch. Makes it a little more valnerable. However, I prefer to just go strate for the kill.

The IFF no longer being disrupted for identifying friendly units is a good idea too. Very good for people not in a premade group. A premade can always have the team painted the same color.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

If ECM is where it needs to be: Put ECM on The least popular variant of each chassis. If its balanced, it would remain unpopular.

Who here thinks thats what would happen?

[hammerreborn]

Scarcer, on 03 April 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Know what would be fair while carrying ECM? Make the operating variant unable to lock-on with missiles while ECM is in disrupt mode. Ally's how ever are not affected.

This point keeps coming up time and time again. The only thing it does is make it slightly harder to use streaks, while not changing the "streak" immunity at all.

Eldragon, on 03 April 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

If ECM is where it needs to be: Put ECM on The least popular variant of each chassis. If its balanced, it would remain unpopular.

Who here thinks thats what would happen?

You mean as popular as the spider D, the cicada 3M, and the commando 2D, which barely anyone uses?

If ECM was so broken people would be running all of them as much as D-DCs.