1089 replies to this topic

[Aim64C]

Honestly, ECM needs to maintain the information warfare aspect of the game. That is its strong suite.

The thing I would have it do is increase lock-on time (perhaps 2-3x) for all allies under its umbrella and for any hostile mech caught under that umbrella.

It should not completely negate lock-on, just serve as a means of increasing the team's ability to move between cover and give mechs that can routinely break LOS an edge.

Reducing target decay for the equipped mech (possibly extending to friendlies under the umbrella) is fine, as-is some reduction in detection range (barring the presence of a BAP).

But it should cut hostiles off from their combat network - though there may need to be three modes of operation to adjust for all of this: "Suppression" mode would reduce detection range and counter target decay. "Jam" mode would increase missile lock-on times and cut off enemies from their combat network. "Counter" mode would act to counter enemy ECM units within range.

That makes what ECM mode you are using an important part of strategic and tactical gameplay. Rolling "stealth" and "no-lock-on4u" into the same bundle is just too much. Split that off into a separate mode of operation and actually implement the -role- of electronic warfare into the game.

[Monky]

I've got to say, I really don't think Paul understands how this game is played.

I mean, wow. ECM is primarily used at point blank range, but somehow we're putting 'lots of damage' on a mech if we hit it with a PPC, which has minimum range?

I could go on a full page breakdown of why every point he made is simply completely wrong, but hell, it hasn't been listened to even when they asked for our feedback, so I know they won't listen now. Whatever. I'm done.

There we go, uninstalled, inb4 'don't let the door hit you on the way out/can i have your stuff'

Edited by Monky, 03 April 2013 - 10:36 PM.

[Deathlike]

Ghogiel, on 03 April 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

No it isn't, not even in serious play. SSRMs are usually only found on the 3L and no one uses LRMs anyway.

If you can't roflstomp the 7 DDC & 1 3L teams in 8mans, try harder.

I'm not saying ECM is the insta-win button, but feel free to mock this thread if you so choose:
http://mwomercs.com/...e-mech-designs/

ECM builds exist for a reason, and although I'm sure you can pretty much beat ECM based mechs with regular firepower, the fact that ECM has a tendency to decide games is not just heresy or people just hating on ECM to just hate. There are too many benefits that even elite players do not ignore and will use and abuse.

[Ghogiel]

Deathlike, on 03 April 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

I'm not saying ECM is the insta-win button, but feel free to mock this thread if you so choose:
http://mwomercs.com/...e-mech-designs/

ECM builds exist for a reason, and although I'm sure you can pretty much beat ECM based mechs with regular firepower, the fact that ECM has a tendency to decide games is not just heresy or people just hating on ECM to just hate. There are too many benefits that even elite players do not ignore and will use and abuse.

why would I mock the RHoD min maxed builds?

There is no fact that ECM has a tendency to decide games. Please substantiate your claim.

[OpCentar]

I support there nerfs to ECM, there aren't enough but any nerf is most welcome. I hope that the ECM location on a mech is real easy to hit, especially on the 3L.


Now, PGI, please give us that TAG toggle ON/OFF switch already!. It's easy to implement and would equalize the field between macro users and everyone else.

[Kmieciu]

Information warfare in MWO: Bring more ECM than the enemy.

[Deathlike]

Ghogiel, on 03 April 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

why would I mock the RHoD min maxed builds?

There is no fact that ECM has a tendency to decide games. Please substantiate your claim.

Fine, if you want to argue that way to win the argument.

If you have so much respect for the RHOD builds, why isn't there any other non-ECM light mechs listed outside of the Jenner that excel in a league? Hint: It's because of ECM. The Jenner can fight, the rest are subpar.

Edited by Deathlike, 03 April 2013 - 10:57 PM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Dexter Herbivore, on 03 April 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

...and THAT ladies and gentlemen, is the real solution to ECM. You can take it, but the variants that take it get gimped on the equipment they can carry. You lose firepower but gain a defensive bonus.

The assumption that most people seem to be making in this is that ECM means that you can't defeat a mech 1 vs 1 when in reality the dev team is likely balancing more around the 12 vs 12 or 8 vs 8 mechanic. You see an ECM, he'd better run because he SHOULD be getting focussed to take him out. You get caught in a duel with an ECM variant, it's your fault for getting out of range of your support.

In organized team play, I don't disagree ... but when you consider random matches, ECM is more likely to be a "I win" button because the likelihood of significant ECM imbalance between the teams is high.

In organized teams, they can choose how many ECM mechs they want to bring, and must live or die by that choice.

In random matches, you might have a balance (I consider a difference of +/-1 generally balanced), but you might not (i.e.: one team might have 2+ more ECM than the other team) ... and my observation is, the team with the imbalance in their favor almost always wins.

No one piece of equipment should be that influential in the outcome of a match.

If AMS (same tons and crits, and can be equipped by every mech) was this out of whack, we'd be griping about that (as I recall, we were ... everyone was saying that AMS was OP, and "whoever had the most AS7-Ks would win"). But, the actual gameplay and data revealed something different in a matter of weeks.

In this case, weeks and months have gone by, and nothing is different ... more ECM (almost always) = win ... I get a special little bit of satisfaction popping an ECM mech with a PPC, or TAGing one (back before the missile nerf), but when I drop and my random team has zero ECM mechs, I know we're (probably) well and truly screwed.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

All this time for you to basically say you don't plan to fix it? Why did you even bother with the other feedback thread or the CC thread then? I guess my signature will remind unchanged until the end of time, since they're basically saying, "F**k your BAP".

ECM will still be best the 1.5t you can ever slot. BAP will still be garbage. Why is it so complicated to just make the ECM do what it's suppose to do, rather than all this other stuff as well? Alternately, why is it so complicated to make the BAP counter it for the one person using it? Seriously Paul, let's play some games, you run a BAP, I'll run a ECM, and you tell me which is more powerful. The first completely shuts down 2 weapons, Artemis, and BAP, and masks enemy unit positions, the second, does what, exactly? I got a better question; the last one, when will BAP be allowed to DO SOMETHING vs ECM in this game?

"Please also remember to keep your responses in line with the Code of Conduct and direct your comments to us (PGI/IGP) rather than arguing with other respondents. Let's keep it constructive!"
I was planning on doing that anyway this time. Not wasting anymore of my time with hammerDUH or other clueless ECM defenders. But we pretty much said it all in your last thread. I don't see a reason for us to repeat all of it yet again when we were already repeating it for you after the months of complaints and threads.

[Ghogiel]

Deathlike, on 03 April 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

Fine, if you want to argue that way to win the argument.

If you have so much respect for the RHOD builds, why isn't there any other non-ECM light mechs listed outside of the Jenner that excel in a league? Hint: It's because of ECM. The Jenner can fight, the rest are subpar.

The other lights not listed are and were subpar with or without ECM. Many were subpar prior to ECM even existing in the game. The reason a jenner still exists is because, like you say, it can fight

Regardless of ECM a 3L raven is still going to out class a 2X and 4X anyway.

Lights are weak in the meta right now. Even 3Ls.

oh and I forgot that 3Ls people have issues with their hitbox. So right there it puts them above jenners.

Edited by Ghogiel, 03 April 2013 - 11:05 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Ya. They still don't care about non-ECM Lights being second class citizens compared to ECM Lights.

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

I think the current state of ECM is perfect (mind it, I run it only like 3% of the time, as I prefer well-armed meds). It is surely depressing for the missile boats, but that doesn't mean that ECM should be nerfed, no. It means that boating has its rightful downside. Don't put all LRMs or SSRMs on board and you'll be fine even in the worse scenario. And there are lots of ways to counter ECM, not mentioning that mech with it is not invulnerable in any way.
And when ECM gets hadpoint restricted, we will know where to aim to disable it.
Most of those who whine on the ECM matter are only good for LRM barraging from afar. And I haven't heard anyone who would mind having ECM in their team.
Good teams with voice communication feel no frustration on this point even now.

What I'm really surprised with is that BAP seems to provide no help with ECM. Shouldn't it provide more stable signal on the enemy ECMed mechs for the one particular mech equipped with BAP? If it really does counter ECM in any way right now, or if it really shouldn't, then I bring my apologies.

Edited by Duncan Jr Fischer, 03 April 2013 - 11:21 PM.

[wolf74]

Personal thoughts here; I think the whole ECM is a “Cart before the Horse” problem right now. Due to the fact the ECM was the first “working” Electronic in the game you all gave it a lot of power thinking you could balance it out with the other Electronics.
The Problem is TAG, NARC, Artemis FCS, BAP where Not made to counter ECM. But ECM was made to Counter them.
So Mechs without the a lot of the fancy electronic see only a small effect on their stuff but mech with a lot of other electronics could see those boost lost once something enter the 180m bubble of ECM.

Pro / Cons I see ECM should have:

Stopping a mech from getting a LOS lock should NOT be ECM power.
Keeping the lock from a enemy mech being shared with others on their Team (Good)
Lower the Time it takes to lose a lock on a mech with ECM. (Good)
Raising the time it takes get a Lock on a mech with ECM fine. (Good)
Lose of the Smaller LRM flight paths from TAG, NARC, Artemis once the missile Enter the ECM bubble (Good)
Keep the Weapon & armor Layout of an ECM mech hidden (Good) (Does not stop the lock you just get no useful inform from the targeted mech)



I thank you for trying. I personally believe you all are going the wrong way for now. But I can hope I am mistaken and you see what I can not or you will see the problem from a new angle a Find some thing better between both sets of Ideas.

Edited by wolf74, 03 April 2013 - 11:23 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

I am still not seeing a reason to pick a Jenner instead of a Raven 3L.
I still see a lot of reasons to avoid bothering with LRMs or Streaks.

Just give every mech an ECM hardpoint then.

And giving ECM a fixed hard point location - you really believe that will change something? When you're already there that you can take out a Raven 3Ls ECM, you're probably already taking out the full mech. You're still vastly overrating the importance of the crit system in MW:O. In the table top game, crits are nastier, because there is no guarantee you can hit the same spot again on your next attack(s) - so a mech tends to live a lot longer with an item that's been taking out by a crit. This is just not gonna happen in MW:O.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 03 April 2013 - 11:27 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

So, long post apologizing for ECM and the shitbird 3L, ending when an explanation that neither are really being fixed.

Because putting your face on the keyboard is "a whole new level of strategy and skill".

Seriously, if you're thinking about the "fix" ECM needs, consider the Gemonian Stairs.

[Aym]

I'm withholding judgement until HSR is in for Ballistics/SRMs I already nail ravens well with PPC's, Gauss and AC 20 rounds, when it gets better and 12x12 they'll be weak, but the real balance issue is that every other light will be weak too.

[Sol Fin]

Will just state what I think. Testing and my K/D stats clearly show that ECM equipped mechs are still the ultimate weapon of destruction. My K/D ratio is the highest one on both D-DC and 3L. Non-ECM variants of the same mech of the same build do not produce similar results.

ECM clearly needs more ECCM measures or ECM should have reduced capabilities.

Edited by Sol Fin, 03 April 2013 - 11:51 PM.

[Revorn]

There is simply nothing more to say, to Counter PGIs ECM vs good Tipps and Hints.

ECM is fine. *Facepalm*

[Hayashi]

I require at least one change to be made for ECM to be liveable.

1. Allowing TAG to nullify ECM at all ranges, not just outside... 180m, I believe. Because a slow Mech won't be able to stay outside a ECM light's 180m range, making TAG nullification useful only for light mechs to cancel the AS7-D-DC. Which incidentally is the only ECM carrier that PPCs can reliably hit, at least before ballistics HSR.

And preferably one or both of these:

1. Allowing BAP to counter ECM's effects on a target for the user of the BAP only (as opposed to another ECM on counter mode, which counters for all users). At the moment the BAP equipment is completely inferior to the Target Information Gathering pilot module, which is very bad/nonexistent balance. There is really no reason for anyone to mount BAP unless they already also have Target Info installed. This also gives Cat-A1s a way to attack ECM mechs without resorting to boating SRMs, which may simultaneously help the Splatcat situation.
2. Making ECM quadruple enemy LRM/Streak lock times or similar, instead of completely nullifying lock capability. And making it impossible for people to target ECMed enemies without LOS just because their teammate already has them targeted, instead of making it impossible for people to target ECMed enemies even WITH LOS.
3. Switching around what chassis are allowed to hold ECM. Unfortunately, it seems the chassis that were chosen to hold ECM among the lights are already among the strongest in their types:

• 1. The RVN-3L has an extra module slot, has a higher engine limit, and has more energy and missile hardpoints than the 2X and 4X. At Light tonnages, ballistics hardpoints are essentially useless - this makes the 3L already the most powerful variant even without accounting for ECM. Further boosting its capabilities makes it completely overpowered.
  
• 2. The SDR-5D is the only Spider with arm-mounted hardpoints, and it has more energy hardpoints than any other variant. Given how it's a Jump Jet capable chassis I cannot overstate how important it is that it has arm hardpoints. Again, it was given the ECM capability instead of the miserably underpowered SDR-5K, which could have done with an ECM capability. But at least this case isn't as bad as the 3L one as the 5V is the spider with the extra module slot.
  
• 3. The COM-2D is the variant of the COM with the most missile hardpoints. ECM is needed to effectively counter ECM, allowing 2Ds to run as Streak boats with no way to counter them in a 1-1 scenario. As Streaks home into CTs, fighting them with, say, a Spider, is a guaranteed loss as long as the pilot of the 2D isn't doing something weird like using his nose to push the mouse. The variant that should have been given it is the one that would benefit the least from this - the COM-1B.

Edited by Hayashi, 04 April 2013 - 12:23 AM.

[Wizard Steve]

Paul Inouye said:

ECM brought a whole new level of ... skill to the battlefield...

Comments like this make me wonder why we bother providing feedback at all.