1089 replies to this topic

[Onmyoudo]

I haven't read the whole thread but haven't really seen anyone mentioning that it's pretty difficult to hit a RVN/CMD/CDA consistently with PPCs anyway (harder than TAG, which I have seen mentioned) so listing it as the main counter is a bit dumb. It's possible B-SR will completely resolve that but I doubt it.

Frankly I've learned to cope with ECM and the fact that it will no longer prevent you from seeing your team mates is a much needed fix, but at the same time I dropped my Jenners the day ECM was introduced and will never pick them up again.

Edit: Many lols to be had at the gold vision of the poster above me.

Edited by Onmyoudo, 04 April 2013 - 03:08 AM.

[J-Pax7]

red devil2, on 04 April 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

Only noobs and newbies can have any problem with ECM. I suppose the reason is that they can't use their "skill-intensive" SSRM and LRM. Veterans and competitive players almost only use direct-fire weapons (gauss, ER PPC/PPC, etc). Therefore, the only advantage of carring an ECM is the ability to sneak around your enemy in lager maps like tourmaline desert.

Moreover, with the current nerf of SSRM, jenners are back as the best light-hunter and I really don't understand why, when we play as a 8-men premade, we still find so many ravens (promptly butchered by our Jenners).

A game should not be designed for only players with your exceptional and altogether humbling skill (I can't effectively put into words how impressed by your arrogance I am). Also as with any competitive game true mastering of it is done by using all tools at your disposal anything short of that is simply taking advantage of the more powerful element of the game and focusing on it. Boating lasers and staying in the face of a balanced enemy isn't so different to boating LRMs and keeping distance. Either way you are dead when out of your element. (Support mechs also have the added disadvantage of having the ECM as a direct counter to their play style (a challenge I'm sure your infallible skill could easily overcome). This game is as much about building a good mech as ability on the battlefield and having the right weapons for the right situations and using skill to surmount the disadvantages of not having such a focused mech is far more worthy then trying to squeeze your massively inflated head into a light mech and rushing the enemy en mas behind a blinding wall of lasers

[Henry Pride]

To be honest, what the heck is going wrong with you guys?

Weve been living with this powerfull tool for months now, and most people adapted to it, quite well. Lag shiel has been reduced, HSR has come for lasers, and will come for balistics, Hitbox ajustment for the Legs of the 3L came up.
Most people still crying about ECM are those who usually pick lockup cheese weapons like LRMs and SSRMs. Direct hit weapons kill all kind of light mech easylie. Before the LRM Damage rewind they were pretty anoying, cause of the huge amout of dmg a Raven or Commando could cause. But with the 1.5 dmg for each srms Raven got his teeth drawn out. 19 dmg Alpha with 2 medpls and 2 streaks? No serious threat. Since the damage dropped im able to kill 3Ls in my Jenners again...
I like the state of ECM atm, with all its advantages and counters...

[Inertiamon]

Vassago Rain, on 03 April 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

I shouldn't be surprised, but I am.

Came to thread to taste tears.

Spends entire thread crying.

Bad Luck Vassago.

Edited by Inertiamon, 04 April 2013 - 03:38 AM.

[MechaLooz]

red devil2, on 04 April 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

Only noobs and newbies can have any problem with ECM. I suppose the reason is that they can't use their "skill-intensive" SSRM and LRM. Veterans and competitive players almost only use direct-fire weapons (gauss, ER PPC/PPC, etc). Therefore, the only advantage of carring an ECM is the ability to sneak around your enemy in lager maps like tourmaline desert.

You are stating a fact (no missile in competitive games) and use it to justify that ECM is not OP. Unfortunatly, this fact could prove the contrary. Maybe there is no SS/LRM anymore because ECM is an almost perfect counter and nobody wants to take the chance of having a useless mech for a whole game.

I don't play competitive games in MWO but I played some in others MMO. And as a general rule, I don't use a weapon because it requires more skill than another one. I use a weapon because it is the most efficient for my playstyle and the adversaries.

Now I have a simple question which can, I believe, highlight the issue with ECM : if almost all mechs could equip an ECM, like any other weapon, would you equip it?

My feeling is that most people will answer Yes. Equiping an ECM is currently a no-brainer.

Edit : incorrect quoting, fixed

Edited by MechaLooz, 04 April 2013 - 03:55 AM.

[Hekalite]

I was hoping for more changes, but the two proposed changes were on my list so I guess I can't complain too much. I can see some people don't feel that the hard point restriction is a big deal, but I think we will start to see a reduction in packs of DDCs. If the second phase of state rewind delivers and the lights start getting stripped faster too, that might be all we need. I'm willing to give it a try and see how it plays out. At this point, that's all we can do.

The MM can be pretty fickle. Sometimes the matches are fair and other times, not so much. Because of that, I feel like it's pretty hard to get a good sense of what's actually happening out on the battlefield from where I sit. I would love for one of the devs to post some metrics from the different stages we've had that would perhaps support their claim that things have been getting better (pre & post EMP, state rewind, MM phase 3, etc.).

[Livewyr]

I read that post in disbelief.

ECM brought a whole new level of strategy and skill to the battlefield and is something that we've been striving to achieve instead of flat plane, long range combat.

You're damned strait it brought a whole new [strategy] to the battlefield: (Skill really is just mounting it in the mechlab and forgetting it exists.)

---------------------

On second thought, I was planning on picking apart the "logic" behind this post, but there isn't a scrap worth saving.

PPC hits still promotes: bring more ECM than the other guy.
Being able to see your buddies doesn't do a blessed thing for the use of guided missiles. Enjoy your A1 Splatcats.
A hard-point restriction? Really? I thought the Magic Fairy dust PPC counter was a bit lame.. but this? Really? I don't think the stupidity flaw in logic needs explanation.

There are more than SIXTY PAGES of a thread with even the ECM enthusiasts saying "it's too powerful..nerf it" with the best argument from the pro status quo group being: "It's fine! Because! Skill!" (being able to see your team mates is nice, means you don't need to ask them in TS3 where they are..but that's it..that is apparently the best you could do.)

It's too bad Paul can't get trolled by a tiny ECM mech because none of the developers use missiles in the first place... ever..otherwise we wouldn't have waited 5 months to find out they like this stupidity. (Did Russ invent this? is that why you can't actually change it? Rhetorical sarcasm question.)


I think I've figured out why you're not concerned with how you're going to implement Angel ECM (in 2 years) or the Null Signature System (in 13-) years: You don't plan to be around for it.
Enjoy your flat plane, long range combat with PPCs.

I'm uninstalling, and letting my friends know not to bother.

(I will however stick around your forums; it's fun to watch, and who knows.. maybe you'll decide you do want to change it after all.. just like 3PV and Coolant pods.)
-Live

[Accursed Richards]

This is disappointing.

ECM remains a "well, duh" choice that still has more influence on a fight than gear 10x the weight. Yes, you can work round it (with much more work than you need to "work around" any other piece of gear), but why this? Why does the presence of ECM make so much more difference than the presence of medium lasers, BAP's, AC/20's, or....anything else?

I just don't understand why among stuff that usually hews close to the TT version, ECM was given such a long list of new abilities, and there's such resistance to simply nerfing it to be in line with other stuff that requires the same sacrifices. Why is ECM on a tier of it's own (something that nobody has ever even tried to argue against, across many threads)?

Simply, it'll be balanced when someone might consider not mounting it on a viable mech.

Yeah, disappointing to see so much feedback and so many good ideas being ignored. Not much else to say.

Edited by Accursed Richards, 04 April 2013 - 04:13 AM.

[MN03]

red devil2, on 04 April 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

Only noobs and newbies can have any problem with ECM. I suppose the reason is that they can't use their "skill-intensive" SSRM and LRM. Veterans and competitive players almost only use direct-fire weapons (gauss, ER PPC/PPC, etc). Therefore, the only advantage of carring an ECM is the ability to sneak around your enemy in lager maps like tourmaline desert.

Moreover, with the current nerf of SSRM, jenners are back as the best light-hunter and I really don't understand why, when we play as a 8-men premade, we still find so many ravens (promptly butchered by our Jenners).

"ECM is not OP, it just makes LRM's obsolete. LOL at people using LRMs. Direct-fire is much better"
Yep, so you basically admitted that LRMs are UP and you can only stay competitive by using direct-fire weapons. .

[Drenzul]

I'm very disappointed with this responce from PGI, while I agree with some of what was said, it ignores a lot of the problems that ECM creates comletely.

My problem with ECM is not really ECM itself, the affect I have no problem with, particually with the changes that are been suggested.
The problems with it however are twofold:

1> The synergy level with streaks is too high, particually in light mechs who are more vulverable to streaks
2> There is no drawback to taking ECM, meaning there is no reason to take a non-ecm equivilent mech in competitive play. This basically makes a whole list of mechs obsolete for CW and 8v8.

There are several options to counter this.

1> ECM has no affect on any mech's own missile locks when the mech is under it's maximum detection range, this would mean ECM pretty much had no affect on streaks and would have no affect on LRM boats under 200m (225m-250m with advanced sensors)
2> The ECM masking aura is detectable by other mechs (show on mini-map as a shaded area), but only in disrupt mode.
3> Weight/slots need to be increased to actually make there a reason to take AMS or BAP or other modules instead of ECM even on ECM capable mechs.
The other option is to seperate the abilities into various different modules so that it effectively increases their weight.

I do not like the idea of locking it to a particular section as 1> It makes no sense, 2> It restricts build options a lot, particually if the ECM gets placed somewhere less than optional, also it will only really help against the DDC, which as it is, is the least problematic ECM mech due it it's low speed.

[Aaren Kai]

I see three reasons why maybe they believe ECM is balanced.

• They are fricken mental cases and throw darts at the wall to balance things...
  
• They have a certain playstyle and favorite mech that their balances just happen to favor...
  
• They are maybe playing in a test region where things are different...

Right now it sure feels like a combination of one and two... PGI, your now in the negative of trust and faith from me. The money tap is now turned off. You got all the money out of me so far. Now it is wait and see.

[Livewyr]

Aaren Kai, on 04 April 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

I see three reasons why maybe they believe ECM is balanced.

• They are fricken mental cases and throw darts at the wall to balance things...
  
• They have a certain playstyle and favorite mech that their balances just happen to favor...
  
• They are maybe playing in a test region where things are different...

Well.. the first one is an observation and can't actually be certified without professionals.. but the last two are spot on.
I've never seen a Dev Mounting missiles.. ever, including in the twitch event... and when your testers all play one way.. you get skewed results.

[Karl Streiger]

I have in general no problem to fire my LRM with LOS...heck its the only way i use it, i almost never spend a shot at a target i don't see.
Maybe some players that think LRM are for noobs should try them...they are easy to use...but they are hard to master.

[Marcus Tanner]

DocBach, on 03 April 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

Sure, if the designers of this game intended ECM to be the entire fulcrum in which their game and all tactics in it are balanced around.

I think they actually, honestly did.

Ghogiel, on 03 April 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

No one ever really consistently used LRMs in competitive games since forever. even before ECM existed.

ECM and the return of 8v8 happened in the same patch.

Shadowsword8, on 04 April 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

OR, they meant that it takes more skill for the opponent without ECM to kill [someone] with ECM. On that I'd actually agree.

Yes. I think that was actually the plan. Beating a group with ECM is supposed to be harder than beating a group without it. They want it that way.

Vassago Rain, on 04 April 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

Because ECM has no effect on dumbfire 5859059585 damage lurm blasts of old, which is what you had to endure. Or are you under the impression you can't fire LRMs without lock?

Dumbfire is dumb. Can you honestly tell me that your dumbfire LRMs ever connected with a Raven? All the times I dumbfired LRMs it would be a miracle for them to hit an Atlas.

There was a game where I dumbfired 3 volleys of 45 right into the chest of an Atlas standing still on a hill. My damage for the match came to a grand total of 18. On top of all of the other problems I think dumbfired LRMs of old were bugged.

red devil2, on 04 April 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

Only noobs and newbies can have any problem with ECM. I suppose the reason is that they can't use their "skill-intensive" SSRM and LRM.

Who are you quoting? LRMs and streaks are this game's "noob tube" guns. ECM is most frustrating for the newest players and the players who have the most to learn.

LRMs could be the kind of weapon used by new players because of their high damage/skill ratio, but get abandoned in higher tiers of play for less skill-efficient but more mass-efficient weapons. It's easy to tell someone who loves their LRMs to L2P, but they're the ones who *are* learning to play, and using a crutch while figure out how the game works.

You would see a lot fewer bicycles around if training wheels didn't exist. Similarly, you'd see a lot more players if this game had training wheels.

Edited by Marcus Tanner, 04 April 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Paul Crux, on 04 April 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

A game should not be designed for only players with your exceptional and altogether humbling skill (I can't effectively put into words how impressed by your arrogance I am).

Any competitive game should be balanced around the best of the best not the other way around.

[Livewyr]

Ghogiel, on 04 April 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

Any competitive game should be balanced around the best of the best not the other way around.

All 50 PPC snipers are going to be very happy until the end.

[Marcus Tanner]

Ghogiel, on 04 April 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

Any competitive game should be balanced around the best of the best not the other way around.

If ECM really isn't a problem for you, then why would you care whether or not it gets nerfed hard?

Surely you'd have more fun if you actually saw lock-on weapons around in your 8v8 games, if only for the variety.

What's your investment in having ECM stay this way?

[Sheraf]

PCC counters ECM is a joke. Instead of chain firing PPC to disable the ecm light, hit it with all 4 and kill for god sake, assume you can reliable hit it.

[Grimstein]

To all that are wining about “pgi didn’t listen to usL”. It is because they know people come to the forums to complain when they die. They didn't listen to you becase you are wrong.



PS
The 3L is now about equal to the Jenner.

Edited by Grimstein, 04 April 2013 - 05:05 AM.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

No, 4 seconds shutdown after a PPC hit is not nearly enough shutdown time. It needs to be closer to 40 seconds.

No, HSR does not make ECM mechs easier to kill, it makes ALL mechs easier to kill. It has nothing to do with ECM.

No, having the ECM in a known location does not balance ECM. Nearly all ECM mechs use XL engines, so specifically trying to shoot it off will kill the mech first 9 times out of 10.

I've been avoiding using my ECM mechs for last couple months because I always figured PGI wasn't stupid, and would bring that 1.5 ton 2-slot no-brainer piece of equipment in-line with everything else. And I didn't want to get too comfortable using it as a crutch.

That does not seem to be be the case, so now its DDCs and Raven 3Ls forever. Which is a financial problem for PGI, since now I have no reason to spend my MC on new mechs.

Marcus Tanner, on 04 April 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

What's your investment in having ECM stay this way?

"I don't like getting hit by lock on weapons!"
And

"I like PUG stomping teams that can't focus fire on targets like my voice comms team can!"