1089 replies to this topic

[Comassion]

I played in the RHOD tournament. That's 8-mans doing their damndest to win. The best builds, the best tactics, and so on.

So let's talk builds. The format of the tournament dictated that we have a certain number of each weight class per game.

For Lights and Assaults, it was ECM 'mechs or nothing. The advantages of having your team cloaked and mostly immune to LRMs meant that there was really no other choice than the DDC Atlas in the Assault class. It's all we ran and all we ever saw. Sometimes for mediums we ran the ECM Cicada just to have more ECM, though the different there in combat power and effectiveness between the crap Cicada and the Zombie Centurion was such that we did sometimes run one or the other.

Similarly, the Raven 3-L was the only light, despite the fact that I'm a superb Jenner pilot, we never ran it because ECM + Streaks trumped every other light build.

ECM+Streaks are still going to be excellent, because you do not have to aim Streaks, you shut down enemy Streaks, and pilots with moderate skill who can hold a lock can now still compete against pilots with excellent aim pretty regularly. You've thus immensely lowered the skill cap for light pilots, and made the game worse because of it.

But let's grant that PGI will somehow fix this with host state rewind code, as stated. ECM still retains it's immense advantages of protecting you from LRMs and SSRMs at nearly no cost to you. The Atlas that carries ECM is still the absolute best assault 'mech you can have of the field, hands down, and it will continue to be all you see in competitive matches.

I saw no mention of other interactions with NARC or BAP, meaning that ECM retains it's place as king of Information Warfare. No consideration of allowing a single ECM to counter all ECM within range, which continues with the trend of having more ECM = better, because you can shut down your opponent's ECM while maintaining your own.

At this point, if you aren't going to make some serious changes to ECM from it's currently overpowered state, at least give every 'mech access to it so we can just make it an integral part of every 'mech in the game. It may re-introduce some variety back into great team compositions.

At one point, PGI was going to give ECM to the Jenner-D. I made a thread that put a stop to that, as I recognized that it would be too powerful. I missed the Raven 3L at the time because I wasn't familiar with the Raven variants, and I thought it would be going on one of the slow ones, but the fact is that the Raven 3L is pretty much a Jenner D with one less Energy point, no jumpjets, and a slightly slower engine. I now regret making that thread, because if I'd know that after all that time that this would be the ultimate solution, I'd rather at least be running an ECM 'mech I enjoy rather than the Raven.

[Elwood Blues]

Here is the flat truth of ECM. As long as ECM remains in it's current state, ECM carrying variants will be the only competition viable options for that chassis. What should be telling about the power of ECM is how often experienced players take other variants of the Raven, Cicada, Atlas, Commando, or Spider. If your chassis has an ECM variant, you take that variant. PPCs are not an adequate counter.

ECM has, since it's introduction, killed much of the variety of the game. A team has to have a certain amount of ECM to really be viable which means that it has to take a few mechs from a selection of 5. Why would you take an Atlas D? You are laughed at if you take any other Raven than the 3L.

Edited by Elwood Blues, 04 April 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[Viper69]

Elwood Blues, on 04 April 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

You are laughed at if you take any other Raven than the 3L.

In a similar way if you take any Atlas other than a DDC.

[StalaggtIKE]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 04 April 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

"ECM is IW, and we are done and moving on from that pillar".

That's the part that irritated me the most. I did not want to react on it because, well that's reading between the lines. But I can't but come to that conclusion. Either you have ECM on your team or you don't; that shall be the extent of IW. ECM is it. I ask everyone to read this: INFORMATION WARFARE.

How can anyone not be livid expecting such promises, only to settle for THIS. One device to rule them all. Really do you all not realize what you missed out on? Ignorance is bliss. Had only I settled for such.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 04 April 2013 - 06:17 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

StalaggtIKE, on 04 April 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

That's the part that irritated me the most. I did not want to react on it because, well that's reading between the lines. But I can't but come to that conclusion. Either you have ECM on your team or you don't; that shall be the extent of IW. ECM is it. I ask everyone to read this: INFORMATION WARFARE.

How can anyone not be livid expecting such promises, only to settle for THIS. One device to rule them all. Really do you all not realize what you missed out on? Ignorance is bliss. Had only I settled for such.

ECM wouldn't even be an issue if there were 5 or 6 electronics items that all had strengths and weaknesses.

But we have 1.

1.

[Dirus Nigh]

After months of people telling PGI exactly what is wrong with ECM this is all they get out of it?

Changing several items in the game to compinsate for one over powered piece of equipment is not balance. it is proof that the equipment in quiestion is the problem.

There is one thing PGI needs to do that will go a very long way into balancing ECM. Remove the inability to target ECM carrying mechs at any range.

This is what is making ECM completely over the top. When ECM needs to be restricted to only a hand full of mechs it is over powered. If ECM was such that putting it on any mech in game was not a problem then it will be balanced.

[Genewen]

Counter-PPC that:


The only reason we've won is that the RN-3L pilots were behaving idiotic. First, they tried to run around us in plain sight for everyone to see shortly into the match, giving us enough time to RTB, then they stood back and watched as their teammates engaged us. When those were nearly all dead, they moved in for a fight.

After reading the OP I seriously looked up when it was written for another time, because I just could not believe that you could still be that far removed from any sense of reality at this point in time. All that fail has been already pointed out by others, so I'll spare you my reiteration. The only single moment I was not full of disbelief for that amount of escapism was when reading the line about friendlies getting anonymized by ECM.

[Anais Opal]

Elwood Blues, on 04 April 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

Here is the flat truth of ECM. As long as ECM remains in it's current state, ECM carrying variants will be the only competition viable options for that chassis. What should be telling about the power of ECM is how often experienced players take other variants of the Raven, Cicada, Atlas, Commando, or Spider. If your chassis has an ECM variant, you take that variant. PPCs are not an adequate counter.

ECM has, since it's introduction, killed much of the variety of the game. A team has to have a certain amount of ECM to really be viable which means that it has to take a few mechs from a selection of 5. Why would you take an Atlas D? You are laughed at if you take any other Raven than the 3L.

Which is why you often see 8-man's running 5 D-DC's and 3 3L's...totally killed competitive gameplay and the option for the players to run a Mech they LIKE rather than one that wins. In the end it just turns into an ECM ******** slugfest between the Atlas's.

Will the buttnugget at the top of the pecking order in PGI pull his arrogant head out of his fat backside and LISTEN to the community before the community says stuff you and you end up claiming unemployment after having destroyed a game that the majority of us have waited YEARS for......

[Butane9000]

So I read your command chair post and all this tells me is you largely ignored most of the feedback on ECM except for "we want it to have a hard point and we don't want it to obscure team mates.

Not the over powered shield against LRM's and SSRM's that are a large part of the problem?

Not the weight/critical space to usefulness ratio that's absurd?

I am disappointed by this.

Edit: This isn't the "fix" to ECM that is needed or the one we really need right now. All this post did was insult everyone who gave you 66 pages of ECM feedback you ignored 90% or more of.

Edited by Butane9000, 04 April 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[Aesthetech]

Fail.


...Honestly, that's more accurate feedback than any long-winded rambling I could have conjured.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Viper69, on 04 April 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

In a similar way if you take any Atlas other than a DDC.

The K is even farther down the food chain. They laugh if you aren't a D DC... but they REALLY LAUGH if you're a K variant.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

Since ECM is balanced the way PGI wants it, I look forward to the upcoming ECM Hero Stalker.

[Ghogiel]

Marcus Tanner, on 04 April 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

If ECM really isn't a problem for you, then why would you care whether or not it gets nerfed hard?

Surely you'd have more fun if you actually saw lock-on weapons around in your 8v8 games, if only for the variety.

What's your investment in having ECM stay this way?

I use all the tears over ECM as fapp lube.

Paul Crux, on 04 April 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

So the developers should be making this game to make these exceptionally skilled players better and the 'best of the best' aren't meant to be so because of there ability to master the game but because the game is designed to make them good. Kind of an illogical statement.

Additionally I would like to add that LRMs do require a skill to use effectively. You need to learn what target to attack based on the werabouts of your team mates, your own placement in relation to them, the ways to keep distance between you and the enemy and also how to maximise your use of secondary weapons. What most of these incredibly skilled players who claim that LRMs are noob only weapons seem to miss is that LRMs are terrible weapons to kill another mech with unless its teetering on destruction anyways and their most effective use is to whittle down enemy armour so that direct weapons can finish them off by concentrating on damaged areas. Another effective and difficult way of using them is as a scare weapon. People then to bolt for cover when targeted by LRMs and a pilots ability to exploit this to aid his team mates is a very refined skill to master. The argument that these weapons don't require skill is based on the opinion that mastery of this game is your ability to press a button at a specific time when you line up your sights with your target. I pose that is one of the most basic skills and one of the easiest elements of any shooter to master and people that claim they have an incredible ability to press that button have kind of missed the point.

I will end by adding that I rarely use LRMs as my main weapon as I have a soft spot for laud and rapid firing weapons however since experimenting with them to master different playstyles I now have a new respect for skilled players using these weapons in an effective and strategic way.

I'll just leave this for you to peruse
http://mwomercs.com/...ms-and-players/

[sarelk]

I found the ECM to be very intresting way of adapting it to the online game... I think the way it is is fine except a few more mechs should be allowed to carry it... I dont like the hardpoint idea at all, it limits yet again the variaty of ways to do build in the mech. Taking it off of friends in the area is also a negative it doesnt make the ecm mech as much a target as well as taking away from the table top idea of ecm mech covers allies.

[Gowan]

The only problems I ever really had with ECM was the near extinction of LRMs and the lack of meaningful collisions. Those ECM lights universally run into my legs, and back in CB, that was a freaking death sentence because it put them on their ***** -- and to be totally honest, it was great. I spent a lot of time in a tackle-baby, which was a CMD who stuck between the line mechs and the support mechs to trip (and be tripped by) any harassers. Sure, it was frustrating to fall down and go boom, but it also made sense -- slamming into something that's four times your weight while traveling 129 kph should mess you up.

As for the LRM mechs, I'm not talking about the bizarre superiority they had (although it did ensure that there were at least some on every team), I'm talking about how indirect fire support countered direct fire support. When I play eight-mans, the team comp that we do worst against is full on high-range, high-alpha builds who stand imposingly across the way from us. We like to stay away from cheese (well, most of the time -- hex-stalkers were a fun diversion, but the kill-button gameplay got dull quickly), and pre-ECM, we would have had a designated IDF mech to at least displace them. Now, though, nobody wants to take a 'mech with any meaningful LRMs because, even before the recent bug-nerf, there's just no reliable damage in it.

So that's my big issue -- I miss having a meaningful deterrent for direct-fire threats.

[Alilua]

And this is why I am glad I diddn't buy founders. PGI is completely in love with their broken design. This community has offered dozens of fixes and they have ignored us. Let's slap them in the face again because we know what we are doing and thousands of players don't.

[Garrath]

Yeah, if this little 1.5 ton miracle of magic and technology is so nicely balanced, it should be available for all mechs. Back up your balanced claims PGI and make it so.

[Genewen]

Bluten, on 04 April 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

The K is even farther down the food chain. They laugh if you aren't a D DC... but they REALLY LAUGH if you're a K variant.

Nah, nobody laughs when they see a non-ECM version of a mech that can carry one. Everybody knows that they have to play two other variants to master the ECM-one.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Genewen, on 04 April 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Nah, nobody laughs when they see a non-ECM version of a mech that can carry one. Everybody knows that they have to play two other variants to master the ECM-one.

It's funny, when I see non-ECM versions that is exactly what I think every time.

[DocBach]

Bluten, on 04 April 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

The K is even farther down the food chain. They laugh if you aren't a D DC... but they REALLY LAUGH if you're a K variant.

they should give the K ECM - its the advanced 3050 version of the Atlas, after all. Especially since the D-DC has a command console which is suppose to be able to generate an ECM field according to the Tactical Operations expanded ruleset. It also has less potent hardpoints compared to the other variants, namely the 3x SRM packs of the D-DC.

Edited by DocBach, 04 April 2013 - 07:29 AM.