1089 replies to this topic

[hammerreborn]

Ketzktl, on 05 April 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

I just wanted to post my experience about this (and yes, I know this is just my personal observation).

Without ECM, PUGs scatter around for a bit, then someone contacts the enemy and a red dot shows up on the map then the PUGs tend to gravitate towards the red dot. Even if the guy who made the contact is dead, the rest of the team tends to generally start moving towards the enemy at that point.

With ECM, the PUG scatters, at some point a message pops up that somebody has been killed and the PUGS keep wandering aimlessly.

I'm not saying that this is any huge improvement in coordination, but at least without ECM you can get guys moving in the right direction instead of just getting silently picked off one by one.

PUGs are PUGs, can't really expect anything. I saw a raven/commando rush (6 of them) along ridge line in frozen city and after repeatedly spamming where they were, giving locks with TAG, and tracking them from the upper hill to our base calling out positions and GET TO THE BASE IDIOTS, all 7 pugs on my team rushed dropship and couldnt even kill the one stalker they found.

[Skandrannon]

The thing that bothers me about ECM... always has, is that it takes away your Friend or Foe indicator.

Sometimes the FPS is crap, or it's just laggy, and it is hard to tell who is who if ECM removes the FoF indicator.

Would also be super if we could get the box around the mech back, so we can see what letter they are so we can organize better. I know some people see 'the box' as a target, but I know good and well this game can do that, because I get the flashing box aroud someone when they are up in my face.

Bring this box back at range, and FoF indicators please.

[Icebergdx]

hammerreborn, on 03 April 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

The reason for it is that you can aim for the torso part the ECM is in. Right now ECM could be in any torso, making its 3 hp kinda negligible because you first have to find it. Now you know exactly where to shoot to disable it (because it dies nearly as fast as a guass)

And right now, not just any torso, it could be in an arm (kind of dumb) or a leg (fairly popular, both because people don't think of that as a location, but if you lose the leg that ECM is in, it does not really matter, you are pretty much screwed. But a valid point, because lets face it, you face an atlas, where do you shoot, the torso with the huge gun barrel to get rid of that weapon. Where do you shoot Yen Lo Wang, the huge arm, where the big gun is. Where do you shoot an ECM mech? The place the ECM is at. Makes perfect sense.

[Skandrannon]

Thontor, on 05 April 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Thankfully, PGI agrees that we should always be able to see our friend HUD indicators...

Yeah, but I'd also like be able to tell if an Atlas is FoF before I'm in range of Triple SRM6's......

[hammerreborn]

Icebergdx, on 05 April 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

And right now, not just any torso, it could be in an arm (kind of dumb) or a leg (fairly popular, both because people don't think of that as a location, but if you lose the leg that ECM is in, it does not really matter, you are pretty much screwed. But a valid point, because lets face it, you face an atlas, where do you shoot, the torso with the huge gun barrel to get rid of that weapon. Where do you shoot Yen Lo Wang, the huge arm, where the big gun is. Where do you shoot an ECM mech? The place the ECM is at. Makes perfect sense.

Wasn't sure if you could put it in the arms or legs. Been a very, very long time since I've used any ECM mech.

Skandrannon, on 05 April 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Yeah, but I'd also like be able to tell if an Atlas is FoF before I'm in range of Triple SRM6's......

You can with the change...if it isn't blue it's red, make it dead.

Edited by hammerreborn, 05 April 2013 - 08:45 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

hammerreborn, on 05 April 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Is this the new argument? A stock A1 would lose to a tricked out D-DC because ECM is OP!

I'd put money on that stock A1 against a stock D-DC if the A1 pilot knew what he was doing anyday.

And as always:

THIS IS A TEAM GAME. STOP GOING DERPDEDERP RAVENS KILL ME 1 ON 1, LRMS USELESS. YOU HAVE 7 FRIENDS, USE THEM!

EDIT: Also, how is his jagermech build build around to counter a single 1.5 ton piece of equipment? It has no ECM or TAG, and still uses streaks...

First off, you should learn to read. I said a -stock- CPLT-A1 against a -stock- AS7-D-DC. This is a fair question, because the guiding rule for this game's development is that any mech should have a fair chance to win against any other mech. Yet, if you do the above, the -A1 will lose every time because the AS7-D-DC's ECM completely removed the CPLT-A1's ability to cause any damage with it's weapons while having no effect upon the AS7's own weapons loadout. This, therefore, is in direct violation of the stated guiding principles of the dev's own purposes, and nothing the CPLT pilot can do will change the outcome.

Second off, both builds are specifically built to counter ECM units. The Jagger uses UAC/5s and medium lasers specifically because of their use in killing ECM units, as well as the modules cited as anti-ECM (though he no doubt exaggerates when he states this mech has no problems with ECM, as he would be unable to fire his Streaks in an ECM field and his BAP is rendered non-functional at all ranges, a major loss of tonnage and firepower that he claims doesn't matter). Indeed, the only reason to have Streaks on this mech is because of their use in killing light, fast units...the usual carriers of ECM. Because of this, the only thing I can think of that would make his statement true about not having problems with ECM with this mech are either a) he doesn't use the Streaks much, so the only thing that matters to him are the weapons he mounted specifically to kill ECM units, or b ) he has had ECM superiority in the majority of fights he has entered with this mech, and has not had many where this unit was under ECM restrictions for the majority of the fight with units of equal power.

The point still stands that he chose mechs and builds specifically intended and capable of engaging ECM mechs (even if less effectively than they should be able to), and made a statement intended to pass off ECM as no problem for -any- mech if the pilot is sufficiently skilled. I proposed a stock confrontation that proves the lie about that, and just how overpowering ECM truely is. Nothing you have said makes this any less true, nor how blatently it is against the guiding vision of MWO which the Devs themselves indicated would be their goal in the making and development of the game.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 05 April 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[hammerreborn]

Jakob Knight, on 05 April 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

First off, you should learn to read. I said a -stock- CPLT-A1 against a -stock- AS7-D-DC. This is a fair question, because the guiding rule for this game's development is that any mech should have a fair chance to win against any other mech. Yet, if you do the above, the -A1 will lose every time because the AS7-D-DC's ECM completely removed the CPLT-A1's ability to cause any damage with it's weapons while having no effect upon the AS7's own weapons loadout. This, therefore, is in direct violation of the stated guiding principles of the dev's own purposes, and nothing the CPLT pilot can do will change the outcome.

Second off, both builds are specifically built to counter ECM units. The Jagger uses UAC/5s and medium lasers specifically because of their use in killing ECM units, as well as the modules cited as anti-ECM (though he no doubt exaggerates when he states this mech has no problems with ECM, as he would be unable to fire his Streaks in an ECM field and his BAP is rendered non-functional at all ranges, a major loss of tonnage and firepower that he claims doesn't matter). Indeed, the only reason to have Streaks on this mech is because of their use in killing light, fast units...the usual carriers of ECM. Because of this, the only thing I can think of that would make his statement true about not having problems with ECM with this mech are either a) he doesn't use the Streaks much, so the only thing that matters to him are the weapons he mounted specifically to kill ECM units, or he has had ECM superiority in the majority of fights he has entered with this mech, and has not had many where this unit was under ECM restrictions for the majority of the fight with units of equal power.

The point still stands that he chose mechs and builds specifically intended and capable of engaging ECM mechs (even if less effectively than they should be able to), and made a statement intended to pass off ECM as no problem for -any- mech if the pilot is sufficiently skilled. I proposed a stock confrontation that proves the lie about that, and just how overpowering ECM truely is. Nothing you have said makes this any less true, nor how blatently it is against the guiding vision of MWO which the Devs themselves indicated would be their goal in the making and development of the game.

You do realize that neither the 2D or D-DC comes stock with ECM...right (unless smurfy's stock loadouts are completely wrong)? So your argument is wrong right off the bat, so you at least have that going for you. In fact, if Smurfy is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it's validity), the D-DC actually comes stock with the useless command console.

As for the rest of your arguments, direct fire weapons are now only used to counter ECM. Gotcha. Good to know the only thing stopping this game from being only LRMs or only SSRMs is ECM. 40pults/jagers, poptarts of both varieties, 9 med hunchies, zombie cents, they all only exist as a counter to ECM.

(also, any mech using streaks that doesn't have ECM or PPCs isn't a build specifically intended to engage ECM mechs, just a heads up)

Edited by hammerreborn, 05 April 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[Mr 144]

Jakob Knight, on 05 April 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

snipped....

Really? your argument against ECM is stock mech examples? Stock mechs are teribad, and have nothing to do with ECM. We have a mechbay for a reason. Uspet about ECM and an A1? One word for ya...splatcat. Again, stock mechs have zero bearing in a game with customization.

As far as cherry picking the 'perfect' mechs for this...lol wut? The Jager uses EVERY available weapon hardpoint on the chassis. This is important. The JM6-A build is actually the BEST build I have found for that particular variant (AC/40 & Gauss are superior on others). Again...my PREFERRED Loadout. Why do you think Streaks are for vs. ECM lights? Streaks at the top end of the range in this build do MORE damage than an SRM version due to spread. Different lead times when complimented with Ballistics are also a factor. Streak use also frees up the tonnage necessary for speed to control range. In the Pug queue there are plenty of non-ECM lights...and I use OTHER weapons as well. What would you call my 'primary' weapon on this build? I use BAP mostly for the situational awerness when pugging...scout communication is...lacking...and any info gathered faster helps.

The CTF-2X is probably the most versatile mech in the game. Oh noes!! I HAVE to run ERPPC in the ideal upper energy slots to counter ECM, while putting LRMs in the obnoxiously low slung arm of the phract. I did not HAVE to use this build...I ENJOY using this build...and it works in an ECM enviornenment just fine.

Both of these builds are heavies. Strength against an ECM light is irrelevant (although if you can aim and have low ping, there is no problem). Both builds are fully capable of downing an ECM D-DC. Furthermore, with BSR (as the devs have stated) BOTH builds will become even more effecient even in your scarrrry ECM light scenarios.

Build 'em...Try 'em...I even made the comment that my uber-awesome-sauce mad leet skillz have nothing to do with it. If you think I would post these builds to 'brag'....well that's just funny. They work...period. Your only counter is I must repeatedly 'get lucky' with ECM superiority....or I'm just an elite braggart.

Mr 144

And P.S....I run dry on streak ammo fairly often, so I use them all the time, and the 'waste of tonnage' is 8 tons. Due to tinnage restrictions, it's actually the best use for those tons I've found on the -A variant. I did not build them specifically to 'hunt' ECMs...I built them to perform the task I wanted in the current state of the game using the tools available.

Edited by Mr 144, 05 April 2013 - 10:05 AM.

[Inertiamon]

There is quite a bit of daylight between "getting lucky" and being an outlier in a general trend.

[Mr 144]

Inertiamon, on 05 April 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

There is quite a bit of daylight between "getting lucky" and being an outlier in a general trend.

Correct. The 'ECM mob' however is not using builds that take advantage of these counters. I see it all the time. LRMs with no TAG or PPCs to support 'em are unbelievably common. PPCs are one of the strong weapons in this game. Equipping one or two is NOT a handicap. Streaks are a low tonnage supplementary weapon. One of the best stalker builds is 4xPPCs plus Streaks...using the counters available (modules included) and no ECM required. There's even a recent RHOD playoff video that ran this build to great effectiveness, so even in 'high levels of play' streaks work just fine.

Mr 144

[Inertiamon]

Obviously if we're talking role warfare the long range indirect fire mech probably shouldn't be running around with a load of direct los equipment though.

[Mr 144]

And that's your opinion. Artemis, probablly the greatest boost to LRMs requires LoS. PPCs require LoS. Sounds like a natural fit to me. Opinions like these are what leads to purposely NOT using the tools available...then using ECM as the scapegoat for a poorly designed mech.

Mr 144

[DocBach]

The point is, why should I be required to take a PPC or a TAG to use my weapon system when all a pilot has to do to deny me is take a single piece of equipment that weighs a fraction of the weapons I want to employ, only as long as I shoot them with the counter?

Why does it take so much work to defeat a passive system with no negatives, additional equipment or skill required for its own use?

[MN03]

YES! ECM is not OP! Now please make it available to all mechs! I doubt anyone will use it *cough*

Edited by MN03, 05 April 2013 - 10:12 AM.

[Mr 144]

DocBach, on 05 April 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Why does it take so much work to defeat a passive system with no negatives, additional equipment or skill required for its own use?

I hear this argumnet all the time. Thread after thread after thread of Lurms and Streaks are 'easy button noob wepons'....now, it takes skill and commitment to use them effectively. LoS TAG helps LRMs regardless of ECM. LoS Artemis stacks with TAG. LoS PPCs are very good worthwhile weapons. All of these are tools used aganst ECM. All of these offer dramatic improvements to a build regardless of ECM. It is not a handicap to use these tools. All 3 increase damage. They are offensive.

Next we'll talk about how ECM can render these weapons completley useless. They only do this if people refuse to use the tools and playstyles needed. A pair of ERPPCs are no joke against a leg humper ECM. 4 second window? Meh...I'm not using them to 'enable' my LRMs or Streaks...I'm using them to outright kill the little ******. 150kph 3Ls scurrying across the water? Not my first choice of targets for LRMs anyhow...roles and all that....An ECM-D-DC? Ha! TAG alone is enough.

The days of hiding behind hills and spamming 2000 rounds of Lurms in a pure LRM boat are gone...thank goodness. Now these weapons are 'skilled'...a whole lot of people don't like that, but that same mob didn't like them being un-skilled either.

Mr 144

Edited by Mr 144, 05 April 2013 - 10:27 AM.

[HammerSwarm]

So to get this straight the main countermeasure of the games primary indirect fire weapon is to rely on other team mates with ECM?

But....
"you can use a ppc" so I have to use a direct fire weapon to use an indirect fire weapon?
"but your team mates can shoot them" so LRMs should rely on targeting something within a 4 second window, firing, and then hoping that after you lose lock again that they stop moving?
"but narc" cancelled by ECM
"but tag" cancelled by multiple Ecm
"but you can get into this window that exists between 180 meters and 200(?) meters?" really? "yes and you can use a module and 1.5 tons of space to increase that to 270 meters giving you a 90 meter ring where you can lock onto targets" Oh good golly glad my 180-1000 meter indirect fire weapon is totally cool if I can run up to a guy and spot him from 270 meters but not less than 180 meters?

Not to mention that 2 catapults, and 2 centurions that can't mount a ppc of their own.

Thanks for putting it into a torso spot, I know that when I see a raven 3L I shoot straight for it's right torso. I never shoot the legs a much easier to hit target. And atlasii never lose their side torso in the course of battle. So once an atlas has lost half it's weapons it might lose it's ecm? Thanks bro. I can finish it of with My lrms after I knock off half its body.

How about using any one of the dozens, literally dozens of other suggestions?

Your literal solution here has been to ask for suggestions, then take them off the printer, toss them into the waste basket, and tell us you read them, everything is working as intended, and we're going to take two suggestions that we came up with internally. XD!

Let me help! Make a thread like an ask the devs, ask people to email their suggestions to an email like ECM@MMOMERCS and then post a page with every suggestion and select ones that are good/often repeated/terrible and reply to them specifically.

People like ask the devs because at least they can see the questions when you guys say, no comment, redacted, or no plans. We can at least read into that. Saying working as intended is both lazy and dismissive. In case you were wondering why there is so much venom in these replies. It's because people don't like to be ignored and dismissed in kind.

[Mystere]

Jakob Knight, on 05 April 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

Why don't you take a stock CPLT-A1 against a stock COM-2D or AS7-D-DC and let me know how that goes? Or how about -any- build using an LRM CPLT-A1 (the -A1 is supposed to be a pure LRM unit, so please demonstrate how you would get this unit to perform as intended in the current ECM environment, please)?

Given that this is supposed to be a team-oriented game, your demand for a demonstration based on a 1vs1 encounter is invalid as far as I am concerned.

Edited by Mystere, 05 April 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[Mystere]

Thontor, on 05 April 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Thankfully, PGI agrees that we should always be able to see our friend HUD indicators...

I was actually disappointed by this change. Currently, it makes people more careful with their shots, or results in the desperate but inevitable "WTH, I'm shooting anything that moves" Hail Mary actions ( ).

But, I can live with it.

[Jakob Knight]

Mr 144, on 05 April 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Really? your argument against ECM is stock mech examples? Stock mechs are teribad, and have nothing to do with ECM. We have a mechbay for a reason. Uspet about ECM and an A1? One word for ya...splatcat. Again, stock mechs have zero bearing in a game with customization.

As far as cherry picking the 'perfect' mechs for this...lol wut? The Jager uses EVERY available weapon hardpoint on the chassis. This is important. The JM6-A build is actually the BEST build I have found for that particular variant (AC/40 & Gauss are superior on others). Again...my PREFERRED Loadout. Why do you think Streaks are for vs. ECM lights? Streaks at the top end of the range in this build do MORE damage than an SRM version due to spread. Different lead times when complimented with Ballistics are also a factor. Streak use also frees up the tonnage necessary for speed to control range. In the Pug queue there are plenty of non-ECM lights...and I use OTHER weapons as well. What would you call my 'primary' weapon on this build? I use BAP mostly for the situational awerness when pugging...scout communication is...lacking...and any info gathered faster helps.

The CTF-2X is probably the most versatile mech in the game. Oh noes!! I HAVE to run ERPPC in the ideal upper energy slots to counter ECM, while putting LRMs in the obnoxiously low slung arm of the phract. I did not HAVE to use this build...I ENJOY using this build...and it works in an ECM enviornenment just fine.

Both of these builds are heavies. Strength against an ECM light is irrelevant (although if you can aim and have low ping, there is no problem). Both builds are fully capable of downing an ECM D-DC. Furthermore, with BSR (as the devs have stated) BOTH builds will become even more effecient even in your scarrrry ECM light scenarios.

Build 'em...Try 'em...I even made the comment that my uber-awesome-sauce mad leet skillz have nothing to do with it. If you think I would post these builds to 'brag'....well that's just funny. They work...period. Your only counter is I must repeatedly 'get lucky' with ECM superiority....or I'm just an elite braggart.

Mr 144

And P.S....I run dry on streak ammo fairly often, so I use them all the time, and the 'waste of tonnage' is 8 tons. Due to tinnage restrictions, it's actually the best use for those tons I've found on the -A variant. I did not build them specifically to 'hunt' ECMs...I built them to perform the task I wanted in the current state of the game using the tools available.

I will admit that I did not know the AS7-D-DC did not come with ECM stock, as I do not own an AS7 of any kind. Or a CTF. Or a JM. My mistake on that.

What I do own is a CPLT, and I'm not seeing how anything posted will help me in a CPLT-A1. That a 1.5 ton item can render my mech unusable despite anything I do, when I'm supposed to have a 'fair chance' against it, is offensive to me.

As to your comments about the streaks on your JM, there is literally no reason to use Streaks instead of normal SRMs, as you will do the same damage with SRM2s, and save 2 tons for ammo or other items, -and- be able to fire them inside an ECM field. The only time a Streak system makes sense would be to attack very fast units when you are confident of having your own ECM to counter enemy ECM mechs. Thus my conclusions, wrong as they may be (according to yourself).

My challenge still stands. Take a CPLT-A1 fitted as an LRM unit against an ECM-equipped AS7-D-DC or Commando and make the same statement that ECM is no problem for you. If you can't (without lying), then I stand by my statement that your comments are inaccurate in trying to prove that ECM is not a problem. I agree that an ECM unit might not be a problem for -select- mechs (direct-fire mechs that don't use anything affected greatly by ECM and mechs that actually mount ECM themselves), but that does not alter the fact that it does cripple many units far out of proportion to what it should be doing, and violates the Devs own words from the inception of MWO onwards.

I admit my mistakes. Will you admit yours?

Edited by Jakob Knight, 05 April 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

hammerreborn, on 05 April 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

If PGI can figure out how to give better tools without integrated voice comms, the more power to them, but I'm skeptical. This is still not an ECM problem, ECM just kinda makes the issue more glaring.

Pressing 'r' was that better tool without voice comms. Unfortunately, this symmetry was destroyed by ECM. Adding new tools would eat into precious development time (since release is scheduled for 5-6 months away) as well as bring us back to prior to ECM implementation. It would be pointless. I like the fact that ECM allows mechs to sneak around, however this could have been better achieved a different way:

Quote

Will radar still have a passive mode, and if so, how does it work? –Octobit

[DAVID] Yes, radar will have an active and a passive mode. Our current plans are for the passive radar to have a reduced detection range and limit a lot of the electronic and information warfare equipment on your ’Mech as well as the electronic communication between you and your lance. The benefit is that you become a lot harder for enemies to detect, leading to greater chances to surprise or spy on them.

As you can see here the initial plan was to allow a mech to swap to passive mode to make itself harder to detect. Had we continued down this path, ECM could have been added correctly providing only a bit less restriction in radar detection for enemies. At this point :

• ECM would be a true scouting tool and not an invisible mob escorting tool
  
• Pubs would still have some means of communicating non verbally to teammates through 'r'
  
• IW would have not been solely balanced on one device, ECM

The good news is they still plan to implement passive/active radar, so perhaps things may yet work out.


Source: DEVELOPER Q&A 3 - INFORMATION WARFARE

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 05 April 2013 - 11:11 AM.