1089 replies to this topic

[SgtKinCaiD]

My 2 cents on the ECM :

- The main problem with ECM is not the ECM in itself, it's the abuse of it. When the ennemy team has one ECM and your team none, it's not a big deal. The problem rises with the gap of ECM between both teams. I regularly play in 8v8 and while we do not want to min/max our team like this, we often encounter teams composed of at least 2 ravens 3L and 4 atlas-d-dc . That's 6 ECM for an 8 men team, and guess what it will be in 12v12 ? Even more ECM. And as the matchmaking does not take into account the number of ECM, how can you have a balanced match when there are 3 or 4 ECM on one side and none on the other ?

- Do you see many of the non ECM-variant of the raven/commando/spider on the battlefield except for the necessary xp grind ? No. All the variants should have the ECM (not sure for the Atlas though).

- If the choice was mine, I would make the ECM light mechs only, thus giving them 2 majors roles : scouting and shielding their team. I admit there would be a problem with the jenner and its weapon loadout though.

[Mr 144]

Jakob Knight, on 05 April 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

I will admit that I did not know the AS7-D-DC did not come with ECM stock, as I do not own an AS7 of any kind. Or a CTF. Or a JM. My mistake on that.

That wasn't my point I pay zero mind to stock builds. Balancing based on stock mechs is a ridiculous concept in my opinion.

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What I do own is a CPLT, and I'm not seeing how anything posted will help me in a CPLT-A1. That a 1.5 ton item can render my mech unusable despite anything I do, when I'm supposed to have a 'fair chance' against it, is offensive to me.

My challenge still stands. Take a CPLT-A1 fitted as an LRM unit against an ECM-equipped AS7-D-DC or Commando and make the same statement that ECM is no problem for you. If you can't (without lying), then I stand by my statement that your comments are inaccurate in trying to prove that ECM is not a problem. I agree that an ECM unit might not be a problem for -select- mechs (direct-fire mechs that don't use anything affected greatly by ECM and mechs that actually mount ECM themselves), but that does not alter the fact that it does cripple many units far out of proportion to what it should be doing, and violates the Devs own words from the inception of MWO onwards.

An interesting choice to reference. The A1 Catapult has been widely regarded as broken. It's also the only mech with all missile hardpoints. The A1s build of choice is the splatcat of course, not Lurms. Some still supplement Streaks on them as well, but it's definately no longer a streak or Lurm boat.

You own 'pults? Fine...use a C1 instead for your LRM needs...Better yet, a Stalker. Your issue is you want a specific variant of a specific chassis to perform a specific task that currently is a poor choice. We have different mech selections for a reason. Choose a playstyle, THEN pick the chassis/variant...not vice versa. You know LRM boating is not viable on that chassis, but you choose to blame that on ECM and LRM interaction, when there are other chassis's that can perform just fine in this role. The A1 does not have the hardpoints to fufill the LRM boat role...choose another chassis/variant. Even without ECM, it's not the best selection for this role regardless.

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As to your comments about the streaks on your JM, there is literally no reason to use Streaks instead of normal SRMs, as you will do the same damage with SRM2s, and save 2 tons for ammo or other items, -and- be able to fire them inside an ECM field. The only time a Streak system makes sense would be to attack very fast units when you are confident of having your own ECM to counter enemy ECM mechs. Thus my conclusions, wrong as they may be (according to yourself)..

Again, you are upset because you are thinking one-dimensionaly. I listed very good reasons why streaks are the optimum choice for the build. The JM6-A is perhaps the toughest variant to build, and I've tried ALL the builds with it. There are plenty of uses for streaks outside of killing lights. To suggest using SRM2s of all things in place of Streaks just shows how skewed this has made you. Not all fast units are lights...we have jumping Trebs (fast)...dragons...cents...etc. There is also terrain to consider where streaks can sneak through and around where SRMs cannot. This is not a theoretical example...I run this build and it works...quite well. Compensating for multiple leads when also using Dakka is problematic at anything other than face-bawling ranges..precisely where I do not want to be in an XL'd Jager. Streaks allow full dakka, even against ECM'd opponents by correctly managing range....at which the build is designed to do.

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I admit my mistakes. Will you admit yours?

As soon as you point one out, I gladly will You are using an irrational fear of ECM to hamper your experimentation and mech design. I'm not being mean here...I'm serious...TRY it. Give me an example of a correct mech to use for LRMs and/or Streaks, and I'll gladly post a build that can work...ECM or not...in fact, I already have Choose your role, not your mech first.

Mr 144

Edited by Mr 144, 05 April 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Foster Bondroff]

In my opinion a very bad design decision.

ECM is still to strong for the low costs it forces upon you.

For 2 slots and 1,5 tons you get a lot of advantages. Advantages a Beagle Probe doesn't even come close to.

Just imagine if all mechs could take ECM, would you ever drop without it? I doubt it. This shows how valuable it is compared to any other item/modul currently available. Thats a very strong indicator that ECM is "slightly" out of balance.

[Peiper]

We beta testers have been playing with ECM for since its inception, and we KNOW that this area cloaking device is broken and has no place in this game. Many of us have been playing Battletech/MW games for a DECADE or more. I no longer push my friends to play this game because ECM is FUBAR, and matchmaking doesn't allow for us to set up matches where players can impose balance where the devs have wrecked it. Watching these threads evolve over the last few months with both valid criticisms and suggestions (both good and bad), I wonder:

Paul and ECM designers: why don't you 'get it?' Your area cloaking device is broken, doesn't fit in the battletech/MW universe AND it takes the fun out of the game for many players. YES, lots of players won't play the game as long as ECM is in, because it's FUBAR. WHY DON'T YOU GET IT??

/tears out hair, foams at the mouth, clutches heart, dies.... (I'm talking about MWO if ECM remains the untreated cancer that it is...)

Edited by Peiper, 05 April 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[Gnume]

I just wish that equipping an ECM Unit and putting it in Disrupt Mode also prevented the mech carrying it from locking on targets. Or better yet, make ECM variants unable to equip any lock-on capable weapon.

[Bilaz]

that was dissapointing. ecm still gives no disadvantages to its user and allies, still comes at almost no cost both on battlefield and in mechlab, still no reason not to use it if able, still you dont have to control it. And i dont see how ppc's or state rewind fixed any of that.
Nobody stated that ecm is a horrible idea - its just that it is made wrong - every other piece of team-helping equipment hurts you a bit - nark, bap, ams - you sacrifice some, to give your team and/or yourself some limited advantage. With ecm its enormous gains both for you and team, for same (or less) cost. thats not right, even if thats how you want it to be.
But as its being said "lucky to get even turf of wool from a black sheep" - i would be able to see where are my allies, thanks for that.

[VanillaG]

CaptRosha, on 05 April 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

I just wish that equipping an ECM Unit and putting it in Disrupt Mode also prevented the mech carrying it from locking on targets. Or better yet, make ECM variants unable to equip any lock-on capable weapon.

I came to this thread to post something similar. My idea would be to have any mechs, friendly and enemy, caught in a Disrupt ECM bubble have any "active targeting" weapons degraded. In the case of Streaks, they would not be able to lock on. For Artemis equipped mechs, the launchers would behave as if Artemis was not installed.

So a lance of Ravens loaded with Streaks would not be able to target any enemies with Streaks if anyone of them was in Disrupt mode. An Atlas with Artemis installed for LRM/SRM would not get any bonuses while in disrupt mode.

[Deathlike]

The Devs real response to ECM: OBSCURED FROM EVERYONE

BTW, the Raven-3L has BAP+ECM built into the mech as stock.

It might be its own OP stock mech (outside of the TAG and NARC).

[MischiefSC]

I can not conceive of the proposed ECM changes, aside from removing their disruption of enemy FF detection, being any more irrelevant. Fixed mounting location means nothing - if I'm close enough to identify and shoot an ECM carrying mech why am I not just killing it?

The balance concept for ECM/missiles and the like is bad. I've gone over why elsewhere. I'm not sure what the percentage of people who prefer it are but it's not large. At best, at BEST there's people who view it as 'meh, could be worse'. Again, it's designed to promote premade teams having an advantage over pugs and punishing pugs for trying to use LRMs as anything but a boated weapon with TAG equipped or for not being in a premade team in general.

It's bad. It's just bad. Please don't let this mistake come into live release. Fix ECM and missiles to work in balance with everything else. Trying to create this alternately balanced concept of these specific items when everything else in the game is so well balanced individually is not a good idea, it's not a consumer pleaser, the most you can possibly hope to do is minimize the number of people it aggressively dissatisfies.

[Jacob Dieffenbach]

I think the problem with ECM, even with these fixes (and they are steps in the right direction), is that it's still too binary.

Your team either has it or it doesn't. Your team either has more than the enemies or they don't. You can either use LRMs or you can't. You can either communicate location info to allies or you can't. The person carrying it is either alive and using it or they're dead (and 3 health... that doesn't count, because by the time you strip out the armor and get a crit, that 'Mechs toast)

There's no fuzziness to it. It needs fuzziness! I've suggested before: there should be alternate ways of achieving stealth besides ECM (passive radar?), adding fuzziness to the requirement of whether or not a team NEEDS it. There should be ways of overcoming it with normal sensors at a cost (like, you have to actually move your crosshair over the target before you can target them, thus making ECM 95% super-stealth, 5% countered by skill). There should be ways to use LRMs (probably that same 'mouseover to target' mechanic; and none of this silly 200 second lock-on times).

And PGI, on paper it sounds great to completely stop allies from communicating in a deadzone of static. But it only sounds good on paper because you assume people can communicate. Matches are won and lost on stragglers and half-lances being pecked apart by Ravens and Atlases, because they don't have time to type out their situation to their allies along with some coordinates, and don't have voice comms.

Not everyone has voice comms. The counter to being unable to transmit target data is communication, and you have given us no communication hotkeys and no voice comms. Until you add those, you can't block off our targeting data sharing.

PPCs miss targets who are moving serpentine, lasers are ineffective against people who swing their torsos, gauss rifles run out of ammo, LRMs can be dodged, SRMs are only dangerous if the enemy is hugging you or if they're an SRM boat, which has its own weaknesses.

Everything has a 'soft' weakness. Things that a skilled MechWarrior, one who knows the game inside and out, can easily overcome even if he has a Trial Mech.

In fact, that should be your standard for judging the balance of ECM. Can it be overcome by a skilled player in a Trial Mech? If no, then the ECM is too powerful.

Trial Mechs can't pierce the ECM since they have neither ECM nor TAG. Trial Mechs have their LRMs disabled. Trial Mechs have no way of sharing targeting data if under cover of ECM. Unlike every other piece of equipment in a game, if you're an expert in a Trial Mech, your only way of countering this one piece of equipment (this 1.5 ton piece of equipment...) is to COMPLETELY OBLITERATE THE PERSON CARRYING IT.

That's crazy.

There are people who think ECM is fine. There are people who think it's terrible. But regardless of which side of the fence you sit on, you have to agree: if 19 pieces of equipment in MechWarrior Online can be countered with skill and skill alone, and 1 piece of equipment can only be countered by destroying the 'Mech carrying it, that 1 piece of equipment is a problem.

It'd be as if legging a speedy 'Mech didn't slow it down, or if medium lasers provided minimal heat and so the mechs firing them constantly would never overheat and shut down. People would cry out bloody murder that it was unbalanced, because there should be nothing in the game that can only be countered by killing the entire enemy 'Mech completely.

Edited by Jacob Dieffenbach, 05 April 2013 - 06:43 PM.

[100 Tonne]

I think complaining is pointless now. I only run my DDC now and try to make sure one other of the 4 I drop has ECM too. When 12v12 and CW comes in and every one is running only 3L's and DDC's maybe then they will get the message!

[Theevenger]

In response to the second point about never having ECM disrupt friendly IFF beacons:

I think that ECM should continue to do this disruption, because that's what realistically makes sense. I used to work with these sorts of systems in real life.

Here are my suggestions:

1. Continue to have the ECM disrupt the map and make it staticy as it is now.
2. Have friendly IFF beacons continue to be shown, but don't update their locations. They should blink or something so the pilot knows these are "last known locations". Each Mech would know the last known position of each friendly Mech, and it shouldn't lose those locations unless the map display itself is completely gone.

[Deathlike]

Personally.. I'd like the devs to explain point by point each component of ECM and why that is necessary.

Then, as a proper rebuttal, we can explain point by point why some of those points are completely insane.

That is the only way to have a healthy discussion, instead of a one-sided fiasco that is the currently unbalanced ECM. Otherwise, you simply continue to split the community on a 1.5 ton, 2 crit piece of hardware that LITERALLY has no negatives to it.

[Sable Dove]

So, I'm assuming that I can say whatever I want in this thread, because it's pretty obvious that PGI doesn't listen to feedback.

ECM makes LRMs useless. Entirely. Streaks don't fare much better. And that's assuming you actually have TAG; without TAG, LRMs and SSRMs are just dead weight against ECM.

As to the reasons that ECM doesn't need nerfing:
1. The hit detection is not the issue that makes ECM overpowered. Unless you can hit an ECM mech constantly, with perfect accuracy, ECM still renders LRMs and SSRMs worthless. And if you're hitting them constantly and consistently with PPCs, they have much bigger issues to worry about than losing ECM.

2. Okay, so where are these ECM counters? I have yet to see them. There are currently no counters to ECM other than more ECM, so there are what, 5 mechs that can mount the sole counter to ECM. Instead of "ECM counters were needed," your statement should read "ECM counters are needed."


You don't need to nerf ECM. Just give us viable counters. A 7-ton, direct-fire weapon is not a counter to a passive 1.5 ton piece of equipment; especially when it doesn't even effectively counter the ECM's ability to negate all forms of guided missile.
A module that barely increases the range at which you can detect an ECM mech, while also requiring the player to actually be able to see the mech is not a counter. It is basically not possible for a human being to achieve missile lock on an ECM light in the time it takes to close the gap and become immune again. Not against even a half-competent pilot.

The first suggestion you said the community wanted, I have literally never seen suggested by anyone. I'm sure it may have been, but it definitely wasn't something the community in general really wanted.
The second is much needed, and should have been done a long, long time ago.

[Shadowsword8]

Thontor, on 05 April 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Any mech fitted with only LRMs is a bad mech, IMO. you have 6 missile hardpoints on that CPLT-A1. Take a couple SRMs along with your LRMs and you won't be defenseless within the ECM disrupt bubble anymore.

You may make sense in general terms, but not when applied to the A1. The mech just doesn't have the tonnage necessary to afford mixed missile loadouts. Sure, you could take a pair of SRM launchers. But that firepower would be too low to make you a viable fighter against anything.

Now, if ECM didn't have this nonsensical ability to prevent SSRM from launching, if you could still fire them in dumb fire mode, you might make a viable A1 build with 2 LRM and 4 SSRM launchers...

Edited by Shadowsword8, 05 April 2013 - 09:37 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Sable Dove, on 05 April 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

So, I'm assuming that I can say whatever I want in this thread, because it's pretty obvious that PGI doesn't listen to feedback.

ECM makes LRMs useless. Entirely. Streaks don't fare much better. And that's assuming you actually have TAG; without TAG, LRMs and SSRMs are just dead weight against ECM.

As to the reasons that ECM doesn't need nerfing:
1. The hit detection is not the issue that makes ECM overpowered. Unless you can hit an ECM mech constantly, with perfect accuracy, ECM still renders LRMs and SSRMs worthless. And if you're hitting them constantly and consistently with PPCs, they have much bigger issues to worry about than losing ECM.

2. Okay, so where are these ECM counters? I have yet to see them. There are currently no counters to ECM other than more ECM, so there are what, 5 mechs that can mount the sole counter to ECM. Instead of "ECM counters were needed," your statement should read "ECM counters are needed."


You don't need to nerf ECM. Just give us viable counters. A 7-ton, direct-fire weapon is not a counter to a passive 1.5 ton piece of equipment; especially when it doesn't even effectively counter the ECM's ability to negate all forms of guided missile.
A module that barely increases the range at which you can detect an ECM mech, while also requiring the player to actually be able to see the mech is not a counter. It is basically not possible for a human being to achieve missile lock on an ECM light in the time it takes to close the gap and become immune again. Not against even a half-competent pilot.

The first suggestion you said the community wanted, I have literally never seen suggested by anyone. I'm sure it may have been, but it definitely wasn't something the community in general really wanted.
The second is much needed, and should have been done a long, long time ago.

It's hilarious, because using TAG I helped our lrm stalker get tons of damage against a team with 2 DDCs (mr. 144 can confirm). All I had to do was sit outside of 180m and hold trigger and whalah, explodey bits. So useless those LRMs are

[Mr 144]

hammerreborn, on 05 April 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

It's hilarious, because using TAG I helped our lrm stalker get tons of damage against a team with 2 DDCs (mr. 144 can confirm). All I had to do was sit outside of 180m and hold trigger and whalah, explodey bits. So useless those LRMs are

LOL...It was a fun match...(we were not grouped together btw, so no bias)...I was cycling my Jagers for about 6 hours tonight as well, so 1 of 3 matches were in my Streagerac (Stree--Grrr--Ack) . Not sure which I was in for that one, but IIRC, those Lurms saved the day...Atlas-D 1st place...You in a Jenner 2nd...StalkerLRM 3rd...or something like that. Very nice light piloting btw.

Mr 144

Edit: Oh I remember! I was dieing horribly for lulz in a quick thrown-together 5xAC2 -DD God that was awful..tried it for 3 whole matches.

Edited by Mr 144, 06 April 2013 - 01:30 AM.

[CECILOFS]

hammerreborn, on 05 April 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

It's hilarious, because using TAG I helped our lrm stalker get tons of damage against a team with 2 DDCs (mr. 144 can confirm). All I had to do was sit outside of 180m and hold trigger and whalah, explodey bits. So useless those LRMs are

In other words, to counter a 1.5t piece of equipment that takes up no weapon hardpoints and is constantly on, you:

1. had to have 2 mechs working in perfect coordination
2. Had one of those mechs equipped with a 1t piece of equipment which takes up an energy slot constantly firing on the target (Literally constantly lest the missile lock break). This mech had to have LOS the whole time thus being exposed to fire from at least 1 Atlas.
3. An Assault mech dedicating almost all of its tonnage and crits to LRMs/Ammo (it must have been a boat since LRMs take forever to kill an Atlas let alone 2, especially when indirect fired).

You see the problem here?

Personally I like that it will stop screwing over friendly IFF, but I still think it needs to be toned down.

Adding seperate hardpoints for TAG and NARC would also be a great idea so you don't have to give up weapons for them.

The A1 is hurt most by this IMO. Unless you have a dedicated Tag carrier and/or dedicated anti-ECM mech on your team, it has no option but to boat SRMs. Taking LRMs or SSRMs means you risk your 65t mech being rendered useless by a 1.5t piece of equipment, which happens in approx. 100% of games.

I still think that PGI should temporarily let every mech equip ECM so they can get the picture about just how powerful it is when no-one drops without it.

Edited by CECILOFS, 06 April 2013 - 01:57 AM.

[Aethon]

PGI, I hope you are reading this. I have a brief history on ECM for you in tabletop, AND the MechWarrior and MechCommander video games.

In Battletech, ECM never kept Streaks from firing, and it never blocked LRM fire. What it *did* do is cause some of the missiles in a swarm to go astray (it would 'sing' to inbound missiles, and lure a few off-course). It would cause Streaks to operate like normal SRM's (but NOT prevent them from firing altogether). Because it was not so overpowered as the system you implemented, nobody complained about it much.

In the MechWarrior series of games, it has typically been something that caused missile locks to be more difficult to acquire, or more time-consuming to acquire; this makes life hard on the missileboats, but not impossible. Once again, nobody complained about it, because it was not broken or OP.

Third example: MechCommander. It was not a MechWarrior game, but this part applies: Once again, ECM reduces enemy radar range, and makes it easier for scouts to avoid detection...but it is NOT the 1.5-ton God Module it is in MWO. Again, nobody complained about it.

The common trend here is that ECM is a small, light, compact module that can fit anywhere except a mech's head (and will even fit there, with certain other equipment). It was never intended to be the 'one module to rule them all'. It was intended to be an OPTIONAL piece of gear that scout mechs could use to help them do their job/survive a bit longer, and to strengthen the missile defenses of mechs that needed it.

In short, you need to go back to the drawing board. Make your lives a little easier, and take the concepts from Battletech, previous MechWarrior games, and even MechCommander. Find a middle ground where you want it, and where it makes sense, and go from there. Seriously, give it a try; I doubt you would hear many, if any, complaints about it then.

Please do the right thing, like you did with collisions; if you cannot fix it very soon, remove ECM from the game until you can properly implement it.

Oh, and one last thing: PPC's are not an effective counter to ECM in actual gameplay. Neither is BAP, neither is the sensor range module. Also, TAG is only sometimes able to help you. Please give ECM an actual counter, other than itself; a counter that works RELIABLY.

Edited by Aethon, 06 April 2013 - 03:55 AM.

[Marcus Tanner]

CECILOFS, on 06 April 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

In other words, to counter a 1.5t piece of equipment that takes up no weapon hardpoints and is constantly on, you:

1. had to have 2 mechs working in perfect coordination
2. Had one of those mechs equipped with a 1t piece of equipment which takes up an energy slot constantly firing on the target (Literally constantly lest the missile lock break). This mech had to have LOS the whole time thus being exposed to fire from at least 1 Atlas.
3. An Assault mech dedicating almost all of its tonnage and crits to LRMs/Ammo (it must have been a boat since LRMs take forever to kill an Atlas let alone 2, especially when indirect fired).

You see the problem here?

This is nonsense. He runs TAG because it helps LRM damage. These days it also happens to let him get locks on targets with ECM, provided he can hold the laser over it and they never get within 180m of each other.

The same thing would have happened even if there was no ECM in the match. It would have been easier without ECM because it still increases lock time, but removing ECM from the equation is no reason for either player to change their mech build.

---

Incidentally, the 7-ton PPC vs 1.5-ton ECM argument is also nonsense. If the *only* thing a PPC did were counter ECM for 4 seconds then yes, it would be a piece of junk counter. However, it's a reasonable weapon to bring regardless of whether there's ECM in the match. As it stands, the effect of PPCs on ECM is pretty weak but it's gravy.

---

ECM is still dumb, for a variety of reasons I've gone into in many posts. Please stop with the "ECM makes LRMs useless" and "It's stupid that it takes 7 tons to counter 1.5 tons" because those arguments are absurd and I don't want to look absurd by association.

---

Even if there were no LRMs or streaks in the game anywhere at all, and even if every enemy mech had a TAG laser, and even if every weapon in the game disrupted ECM the way PPCs disrupt ECM, I would *still* bring ECM every time. It's only 1.5 tons. It doesn't exactly need to be amazing to justify that expense.

Edited by Marcus Tanner, 06 April 2013 - 05:11 AM.