1089 replies to this topic

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Livewyr, on 07 April 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

It's Null Angelic Guardian Electronic Countermeasure Signature System.

Guardian for short.

I call it a jesus box. Speaking of which, whatever happened to that poster named after it?

[Aeolus Drift]

Bluten, on 07 April 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

I call it a jesus box. Speaking of which, whatever happened to that poster named after it?

I don't know, maybe it just took leprechaun flight 101 to the dark side of Mars.

[Mystere]

Peiper, on 07 April 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

You won't do it, will you? Just like the US Congress: if they were have us vote to stay in Afghanistan or leave, we would have been out of there a couple years ago or more. Instead, America continues to plummet deeper into debt and people lose more faith in their government ...

And yet you keep on putting in power the very same jokers election after election after election ad infinitum?

[TheFlyingScotsman]

From my perspective as a dedicated SDR-5D pilot, I have serious qualms with the current ECM model. It simply isn't fun to encounter, because lights who use it almost always use streaks. In that regard I suppose my issues are more with the state of streaks on ECM mounted 'Mechs.

The light game is currently dominated by these mechs because of how difficult it is to land hits >compared to< streaks. If a light has streaks and an ECM, it will almost always win out against other lights effortlessly. This is not an enjoyable aspect of the game, and drives many plays away from non-ECM lights.

Frankly, it does increase the need for strategy in general gameplay for most players, but for other light players who dont want to pilot one of two mechs just to be able to compete, it's a slap in the face.

Personally, I feel that streaks should not be able to be equipped on these mechs, because their existence is itself abusive to other light players, and detracts far too heavily from Light gameplay. The strategic benefits of the ECM need to be balanced for the user, as the current model merely makes 3L/2D gameplay effortless for the player, and a nearly unmitigable "f*ck you" to other lights.

I appreciate the ECM for what it is and does, and don't want what it does to change fundamentally. I just want ECM users to make as much effort to get kills as anyone else, instead of playing rock-paper-scissors and throwing skill out the window.

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 07 April 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[DocBach]

Stop with the politics, it is irrelevant to the topic and a poor diversion.

[DocBach]

Liquidx, on 07 April 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

Replace target with &quot;allow missile locks&quot; in my post. This is what I had intended (but I was running off to work as I posted it - apologies for poor wording).

In essence, once you are within an enemy ECM bubble, your sensors should not be affected - this will solve the problem with streaks currently, and if sensor range is extended as per my earlier post, also solve LRM uselessness issues.

in the source material, ecm only affected standard sensors if the spotting much was in the bubble too. Outside the bubble sensors could still locate enemies in line of sight, but not provide information on them.

[Savage Wolf]

Overall the problems I see with ECM is simple. It has one effect that makes sure that mechs with ECM doesn't show up on sensors unless within 200m. A fine effect which is essentially stealth for mechs, so if you use a little cover, you can sneak past enemy mechs.
Stealth in most games have a simple counter: various means of detection and then simply telling the team "He's over here!". But here is when ECM's second ability comes in. Because it says you can't share target information. So the usual counter to stealth isn't there! And not only does this second ability remove a counter to it's stealth ability, it's an entire new ability in it self, it's information warfare.

So what counters did we get to counter these two abilities?

TAG was one. And it does work to some degree. It counters the stealth part, but not the information warfare part. If you are too close to the ECM mech, TAG doesn't work.
Enhanced sensors? It slightly decreases the effectiveness of the stealth part, and does nothing against the information warfare part. And that despite being the most expensive and hard to earn counter there is.
PPCs for once disables the information warfare part. But only for 4 seconds. Technically it also counters the stealth part, but not to any useful degree because anyone needing to have them on sensors need more than 4 secs. But PPCs does give one the opportunity to say "He's over here!"
Teamspeak. Yes, teamspeak. Because then at least I can tell my teammates "He's over here!" They still can't see the enemy on sensors so stealth is still there, but at least information warfare is countered a little bit.

So none of the counters really counters ECM, only partially and ineffectively. The only counter that is used to any degree is TAG and that is usually by those that require sensors themselves.

So what does ECM do for teamplay? Well it did add a new role. Stealth. But while doing so, it removed two others. Scout and support.
Scouts are supposed to go out and find the enemy and tell the team. Help them know where to fight and where support is needed. But now, they can't reliably do so. As a result you rarely see anyone filling this role anymore. Stealth is just better.
Then there is the support role. I'm primarily talking about LRM mechs, but essentially any mech built to be able to quickly offer assistance to the team where needed. They cannot fill this role without information about the enemy. They need people to share targets so they know where they are needed and with LRMs (and possibly future indirect weapons) they need locks. This role still tries to live on by also filling the role of the scouts they so lack with TAG and sensors, but usually they still end up just supporting against the non-ECM enemies.


And information warfare that was once one of the great features of this game is rarely used because ECM is the king of the hill. Why bother sharing targets if there is soon an ECM mech nearby blocking your information and no support mechs able to make use of the information anyway. And why bother trying to counter ECM with the before mentioned counters when a more effective counter is simply shooting the ********. AC/20 is a better counter to ECM than PPCs.
Information warfare is no more because it's easier to live without it.

So what to do about it? Simple, remove the information warfare ability of ECM. Then scouts would be the new counter and they would actually work. And add more teamplay.
And too all who sees ECM as an LRM counter, it still is, as long as you keep the scouts away.
It would no longer counter Streaks, but really, fix Streaks instead of fixing it by ruining several other things. And then you would also have fixed ECM mechs with Streaks and Streaks vs non-ECM.

Then you could always make another ECM suite that has the information warfare part and nothing else. And not allow people to wear both on the same mech.
And possibly make BAP the positive information warfare suite that can always share information.
And let PPC disable all those modules, because that would make sense, even though it would still be useless.

[DocBach]

Balance in a game = insanity? Would make the argument that anybody who thinks such a linear and binary system is healthy for a game is the insane one, actually.

[JayVrb]

Peiper, on 07 April 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

You won't do it, will you? Just like the US Congress: if they were have us vote to stay in Afghanistan or leave, we would have been out of there a couple years ago or more. Instead, America continues to plummet deeper into debt and people lose more faith in their government - just like we keep losing faith in you, PGI, that you're not just going to take our money and get off on the first lifeboat.

I wouldn't try and drag in government politics to this thread, it's not the place.

Otherwise, I 100% agree with everything you say. To think PGI had the audacity to say "It's very close to where we want it" and not "It's very close to how it SHOULD be" or "it's very close to how THEY (the people actually spending money on you, who you are making the game for, who really matter) want it"..... big time foul PGI. I would strongly urge you to listen to your community. PPC to ECM is not enough.

CYBRN4CR, on 07 April 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

PGI, please continue to brush off mostly everyone here. I'm serious about this. Most of the people here don't deserve to be playing this game as they have no idea what they are talking about.

No wonder you devs have the announcement then silence thing going on. With the sheer insanity of what people are spouting here, I completely would shut out the playerbase.

I HATE the playerbase. It is YOU GUYS that make the game not fun. GET OUT of this game!

I don't think it's in their best interest to brush off those who are very vocal about a mechanic that they see having a strong, negative impact on the overall game. Sure there are people who complain just to complain, but there is a lot of logic and well thought out posts in this thread that argue against PGI's stance of "It's very close to where we want it to be."

Edited by Vrbas, 07 April 2013 - 08:32 AM.

[Mystere]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 07 April 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

From my perspective as a dedicated SDR-5D pilot, I have serious qualms with the current ECM model. It simply isn't fun to encounter, because lights who use it almost always use streaks. In that regard I suppose my issues are more with the state of streaks on ECM mounted 'Mechs.

The light game is currently dominated by these mechs because of how difficult it is to land hits >compared to< streaks. If a light has streaks and an ECM, it will almost always win out against other lights effortlessly. This is not an enjoyable aspect of the game, and drives many plays away from non-ECM lights.

Frankly, it does increase the need for strategy in general gameplay for most players, but for other light players who dont want to pilot one of two mechs just to be able to compete, it's a slap in the face.

Personally, I feel that streaks should not be able to be equipped on these mechs, because their existence is itself abusive to other light players, and detracts far too heavily from Light gameplay. The strategic benefits of the ECM need to be balanced for the user, as the current model merely makes 3L/2D gameplay effortless for the player, and a nearly unmitigable "f*ck you" to other lights.

I appreciate the ECM for what it is and does, and don't want what it does to change fundamentally. I just want ECM users to make as much effort to get kills as anyone else, instead of playing rock-paper-scissors and throwing skill out the window.

A Spider 5D packing ECM can go to places that will give the 2D and 3L quite a bit of headaches. And if you're also packing a PPC and TAG (like I do ), those headaches get even bigger. As such, I'm a bit curious because a 5D pilot is the last one I expected to complain about the 2D or 3L. Are you putting those jump jets to good use, or did you get rid of them? Are you trying to take them on 1vs1, or do you try to lure them to a waiting team mate?

Edited by Mystere, 07 April 2013 - 08:34 AM.

[hammerreborn]

senaiboy, on 07 April 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

Everyone has had their say, so I'm not sure if anyone in PGI is still reading. But at the very least, read the first 5 pages (I did) - everything that are worth saying have already been said.

My only gripe is ECM being used offensively with SSRMs, in the sense of Raven-3L and Commando-2D, where they literally hunt down light mechs with no fear. Why would you make a specific light mech better than the rest?

Every time I see a 3L on my team, I sighed in relief. Any other light mech, I'd prepare myself for a tough fight, as not only will our light mech be taken out, we will then have to deal with the Raven-3L. This cannot possibly be working as intended.

How to change this? If you PGI have to ask this question, dear god, there were dozens of suggestions already. Note how many of us here are &quot;Founders&quot;. We gave our support, at the very least listen to us when we speak.

You know what would create more light diversity than your streak idea? The removal of engine restrictions. When spiders and Jenners can outrun their streak toting counterparts rather than knowing as soon as a raven gets within 270 it's ct ct ct ct ct ct ct ct ct hit after hit until you or he dies

[Mystere]

hammerreborn, on 07 April 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

You know what would create more light diversity than your streak idea? The removal of engine restrictions. When spiders and Jenners can outrun their streak toting counterparts rather than knowing as soon as a raven gets within 270 it's ct ct ct ct ct ct ct ct ct hit after hit until you or he dies

I can see it now: "Nerf Spiders and Jenners. They're OP and extrememly broken." (translated as: "I can't shoot them so I'll nerd rage QQ to the high heavens to account for my deficiencies").

[hammerreborn]

Mystere, on 07 April 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

I can see it now: &quot;Nerf Spiders and Jenners. They're OP and extrememly broken.&quot; (translated as: &quot;I can't shoot them so I'll nerd rage QQ to the high heavens to account for my deficiencies&quot;).

Basically, I mean the fact that I've seen some "ravens legs are too easy to hit" threads it just baffles my mind that some people thought they were supposed to deflect ac/20s with their face. And all the missile complaints because a single missile isn't doing 10-20 damage to a commando anymore...

The engine limit upsets me because people use ECM and overall tonnage as arguments on why the spider, commando, and to a lesser extent the Jenner as reasons there is no light diversity.

Without the engine restrictions ravens and commandos would be slower than any non-ECM mech because they'll have a free 1.5 tons available.

I know that my dream Jenner would be a k with 4 modules, BAP, tag, 3 mediums, max jjs, and as big an engine as I can fit.

Edited by hammerreborn, 07 April 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[Mystere]

hammerreborn, on 07 April 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Basically, I mean the fact that I've seen some "ravens legs are too easy to hit" threads it just baffles my mind that some people thought they were supposed to deflect ac/20s with their face. And all the missile complaints because a single missile isn't doing 10-20 damage to a commando anymore...

The engine limit upsets me because people use ECM and overall tonnage as arguments on why the spider, commando, and to a lesser extent the Jenner as reasons there is no light diversity.

Without the engine restrictions ravens and commandos would be slower than any non-ECM mech because they'll have a free 1.5 tons available.

I know that my dream Jenner would be a k with 4 modules, BAP, tag, 3 mediums, max jjs, and as big an engine as I can fit.

Don't get me wrong. I agree with removing the speed limits. But, I am just anticipating the deluge of nerd rage QQ threads from people who [1] cannot aim and [2] 2D/3L pilots who can no longer get easy light kills.

Edited by Mystere, 07 April 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[pencilboom]

Asakara, on 03 April 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

So if I am in a 4 man and all of us want to play D-DCs we can't?

I can see it now:
"Sorry Jim but you can not play your favorite mech like the rest of us as we already have 3 D-DCs..I know you earned the C-Bills and don't have any other mechs. Anyways just play a trial mech or drop from the group." LOL.

take the ecm out from the other 2 D-DC(s). because that's so friggin' hard. right? right? right?

please..I'd take any other more intelligent reason but not this.

Edited by pencilboom, 07 April 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[Livewyr]

CYBRN, don't you think that's just a bit ironic?

(disregard everyone here as they are making this toxic and I hate them because they make this toxic!
without even making a point.)

[Peiper]

Vrbas, on 07 April 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

I wouldn't try and drag in government politics to this thread, it's not the place.

<REDACTED>

I just deleted a big rebuttal because, damnit, you're right. I'll leave my last thought intact, though.


I want our soldiers home safe and healthy, and I want the innocents in Afghanistan to be safe and healthy too.

Edited by Peiper, 07 April 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[DocBach]

Proper, ecm does more than counter high end electronics; there is a third mode that wasn't included into mwo called ghost target mode that confused sensors that is countered by beagle like you suggest. Implementing that feature would go a long way towards balance. The other balance act would be if you are in los, you are target able by sensors, just information about your status is shrouded by ecm.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

DocBach, on 07 April 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

in the source material, ecm only affected standard sensors if the spotting much was in the bubble too. Outside the bubble sensors could still locate enemies in line of sight, but not provide information on them.

It also disabled BAP/Artemis against the user; it did not stop locks entirely as it does here. But if they didn't want to follow TT at all, then they should have followed other games. MW 4 Mercs has a perfectly balanced ECM/BAP setup that Piranha apparently never even looked at. You could have just copy/pasted that into this game and that would have been fine. Instead, they spend far more effort to mess it up by stupidly doing their own thing, ignoring every game before this one and everyone's complaints in the process. If they don't wise up and fix this by their "launch" date this Fall, this game will sink like a stone in water. People will come for your "release", see a horribly unbalanced game, then leave soon after. I have seen this happen with games more than you know. They bomb upon release either due to horrible performance issues, horrible game balance, or both. While MWO is slowly getting better, performance wise, its balance is getting no where.

Edited by Bluten, 07 April 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[Peiper]

Bluten, on 07 April 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

People will come for your "release", see a horribly unbalanced game, then leave soon after.

I doubt they'll see much of anything. It will all be hidden with an area cloaking device.