101 replies to this topic

[jakucha]

Prathios, on 03 April 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

The one caveat I would say to what you put forth here, is that pgi has made this "beta" very much like a finished product. We are already paying for it, and the "timeline" has already started moving. If this were truly a beta, I would not expect to have already dumped over 200 dollars at it. So PGI itself has fudged the lines a bit. Overall though it's a valid post.

That's how F2P betas work. It does seem more in a state between alpha and beta due to it lacking core elements, but it's definitely not a finished product.

Path of Exile is another example. You can buy lots of stuff for real money, but it's also missing a lot of content as it's beta. Just because you can spend money on it doesn't magically negate the fact that it's not a final product.

Edited by jakucha, 04 April 2013 - 04:00 AM.

[James DeGriz]

No one is REQUIRED to pay anything; the cash shop items are all optional and there to facilitate the costs of continuing development of a beta product; essentially one that isn't yet finished.

Granted, MMOs by their definition are never really "finished", but MWO has some of its core game play elements (Clans / CW) missing. That along with content / fix patches every fortnight very much put this game in line with it's Beta label.

I would expect come full release that patches will be much less frequent. No one has a gun to your head forcing you to play. If you don't like it, log off and come back in the summer. Until then, put up or shut up.

[Aim-Bot]

To be or not to be beta cant be defined by the ability of paying money or not.The fact that its not finished makes it to an open beta.
I see it more like an oportunity.PGI is reacting to the comunity and they need the reaction. At this stage we still have the oportunity to lead the direction this game will go.PGI already thrown concepts in the junk pile because the comunity did not agree.
What this topic is really about is the raging in the forum when PGI made a mistake or new bugs and issues show up.

What we see is this.



but what PGI needs to have are feedbacks.People beleave if they are raging enough PGI will listen. Thats wrong because PGI listens anyway.
Have a look at the latest command chair post.

http://mwomercs.com/...-issues-update/

There is another element that should denie every anger about the game for all times.
Yes its the "you dont have to pay" argument.
This is a great offer.Its like you go to a store and grap some games and when you leave the store you tell them to come back later maybe to pay whatever you think these games deserve but maybe you dont come back and just keep the new game.
And neither now nor after beta anyone has to pay.
I payed and when this games end in the junk pile its my own fauld and im not angry.
Give them feedback ,support them and look forward for summer and dont only mean because of this game leaves beta i mean because summer is great anyway

Edited by KuritaGuard, 04 April 2013 - 04:27 AM.

[Crystal Waters]

Threads like this are the reason I despise main stream, action oriented gaming communities. Let me explain; There is a game, currently in development, that is probably the most information heavy strategy game in existence, with very little (sometimes no) action element at all. It is free to play open beta right now, has been for several years at this point, and has absolutely no purchasable content (entirely donation driven, and quite successfully at that). The player/tester community is extremely supportive, with little to no whining over this feature or that feature or "I paid for all these things so far and the game isn't developing the way *I* want, so screw you!" type of posting. It is an amazing game, well on it's way to completion, certainly not for everyone but at the least the comunity experience is pleasant to say the least. The game is called Dwarf Fortress, and I recommend it.

As for this game, I have just started playing it. I'm excited about it so far, because I have long been a fan of mechwarrior, and the "feel" of this game so far is good. I intend to keep playing, but I don't plan on buying anything at all, especially during beta phase _when I don't know how the finished product will turn out_, and if I did buy a specific in game item, I would be buying that item and I would save my complaints about the game because I am not paying for the game itself. As I said before, having ventured to these forums, I am disgusted by the immaturity of the community, and hope above all else that at some point I find a decent, mature collection of players that take the game seriously for what it is but don't whine about trivial things, but rather give objective, non-judgmental, constructive criticizm where aplicable and let the developers do their jobs and the fellow players enjoy their stay. Until I find said group, I intend to restrain from joining the conversations here on these forums.

If you agree with my overview of the community and can respecfully join me in some good old fashioned mech smashing, feel free to look me up. My merc name is Cryton555. If you are about to reply with insults, hot headed remarks, and the like, save your breath and go back to making your precious 360 no scopes in modern warfare.

Goodnight everyone.

[Noobzorz]

This is not 2004.

If it were 2004, your post would be totally reasonable.

It is not.

It is 2013.



Never post this anachronistic ******** again.


(For the record, I think the game is in great shape, especially after this latest hotfix, and is headed in a great direction. I think my post history reflects this. I agree that there isn't too much to complain about, so I'm with you guys there. I just object to this insanely moronic notion of "beta" that you have. It dates you, and badly, and I am embarrassed on your behalf by the intensely dorky posts it produces. Cut the hero worship.)

Edited by Noobzorz, 05 April 2013 - 08:01 PM.

[MischiefSC]

slimebucket, on 03 April 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

You sir are the one pretending

You argue to the ends of the earth, but you cannot deny that once a game implements its methods for charging for in game stuff and NO LONGER WILL EVER DO A server wipe that the game IS NOT in BETA.


Word terms don't CHANGE. People saying "In the past betas ment this, now it's different"

No it is not! They should come up with a new term then, because BETA testing MEANS testing the game before release.

They should call it a GAMMA release or something. Beta is NOT FOR ENJOYING THE GAME. It is for stricly testing it, where this "open beta" for MW:O is geared toward getting players and having them enjoy the game. The point of this "open beta" is not to track down bugs and problems in the game.
ANYONE can access MW: O, use the store to buy stuff, and game credit, you do not need a beta key to get in, and also there isn't anywhere IN GAME that makes it easy to report bugs.

If you honestly think that this "open beta" is anything more than a PR stunt to give the game multiple releases then you are seriously the one pretending.

This "beta" isn't for testing the game, it is for testing the community

You don't understand what 'open beta' is. Here, I'm going to quote the definition of it for you and post the link because I have posted the link repeatedly and clearly nobody reads it. Here:

Quote

Beta

Beta, named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet, is the software development phase following alpha. It generally begins when the software is feature complete. Software in the beta phase will generally have many more bugs in it than completed software, as well as speed/performance issues and may still cause crashes or data loss. The focus of beta testing is reducing impacts to users, often incorporating usability testing. The process of delivering a beta version to the users is called beta release and this is typically the first time that the software is available outside of the organization that developed it.
The users of a beta version are called beta testers. They are usually customers or prospective customers of the organization that develops the software, willing to test the software without charge, often receiving the final software free of charge or for a reduced price. Beta version software is often useful for demonstrations and previews within an organization and to prospective customers. Some developers refer to this stage as a preview, prototype, technical preview (TP), or early access. Some software is kept in perpetual beta—where new features and functionality are continually added to the software without establishing a firm "final" release.
Open and closed beta

Developers release either a closed beta or an open beta; closed beta versions are released to a restricted group of individuals for a user test by invitation, while open beta testers are from a larger group, or anyone interested. The testers report any bugs that they find, and sometimes suggest additional features they think should be available in the final version. Examples of a major public beta test are:

• In September 2000 a boxed version of Apple's Mac OS X Public Beta operating system was released.^[3]
  
• Microsoft's release of community technology previews (CTPs) for "Longhorn" in January 2005.^[4]

Open betas serve the dual purpose of demonstrating a product to potential consumers, and testing among an extremely wide user base likely to bring to light obscure errors that a much smaller testing team might not find.

Here's the link.

Here's a link for the Merriam-Webster definition.

Here is a link for wiki.answers.

I want to make this perfectly crystal clear.

You are wrong. You are wrong because you are attempting to impose your own opinions on the definition of the term 'open beta' that PGI has been absolutely crystal clear about from the first moment it went open beta.

The fact that they're paying attention to the user experience in MWO and using it to crowd-fund the development of the game has absolutely nothing what so ever to do with it being in open beta.

These are extra things that they are doing WHILE THE GAME IS IN OPEN BETA. It's like walking and chewing bubble gum. Just because you're walking doesn't mean you can't chew gum or vice versa. The fact that you'd doing one has nothing to do with the other. Games crowd source funding in return for in-game rewards at any and every point in development from pre-release to post release.

Open beta has a definition. It hasn't changed. MWO is in open beta. It's also crowd sourcing money from people in the open beta by offering them stuff in return for money in the open beta product.

Show me in the definition of open beta where it talks about game funding. Anywhere. At what point funding the games development impacts its development cycle. Anywhere in any definition. It doesn't. Because they are totally unrelated. Show me where it says if the developer actually pays attention to the user experience in open beta that it's no longer an open beta. It doesn't, because the two are utterly unrelated.

The game is only barely feature complete and still some months from an RC. It's still testing features and patching weekly.

So you're wrong. Every single person who says that MWO isn't in open beta isn't simply wrong but is effectively saying 'I have no clue what the term open beta means' in public. Stop it, it's embarrassing. They don't have an in game bug reporting tool - where does it say they have to? I've done professional beta testing for business software off and on for a little over a decade. I've never seen that function. We always had to send e-mailed bug reports, sometimes with a pre-set form to them and sometimes not. Sorta like.... e-mailing support with feedback, right? Or posting on the forums?

I just don't get it. There's no rational argument here. MWO fits exactly every single textbook definition of an open beta. It's clearly in open beta. Most importantly the developers, who decide what the development cycle is, have said it's in open beta. Just because you have some nebulous feeling based on a lack of understanding on what 'open beta' is does not in fact change the nature of reality or the meaning of the term 'open beta'.

I get that some people may feel tricked because they saw 'open beta' and in typical postmodernist style decided that they just magically understood what that meant (regardless of what it really means) and then found out that it was something different and now feel cheated because... well, they made some assumptions from a position of ignorance that have been shown to be wrong.

That doesn't change the fact that MWO is without question in open beta. Anyone who doesn't understand what that means has their own issues. PGI has been utterly honest about the state of the games position in the development cycle.

[Eddrick]

I agree.

To anyone arguing about the charging for things part. If I could by a Founders Pack, I would. But, I didn't find out about the game till after the Founders Program had ended and the game went Open Beta.

[darkfall13]

I don't think Beta is what we're looking at here. Money or not that's not the issue to me. The issue being we're Beta Testers right? What are we testing (heavy server load and nothing else)? Who knows, half the time they're pretty lax with communication on the MWO site (THE place us Beta Testers should be visiting regularly, not so much for this game it seems, great place for entertainment I've come to learn) which brings me to some big points.

• Patch Notes: It will always be my biggest gripe until PGI starts handling themselves correctly and with some pride for the work they do, both good and bad, let us look at what they've presented us and have a dialog. (CCP's patch notes for EVE, now there's some all inclusive changes document), how are we to test anything if there's things not listed in the patch notes. Do they care if we test them at all at this point? I'm not even talking about bugs, just things included that were obviously meant to be, but not stated.
  
• We being the Testers and Community find out things after the fact, take for example the upcoming CW pay-to-play-together scandal. Did PGI come to the forums (lol) or Twitter (apparently MWO's official news source) and tell us anything about their plans on that? Nope, zilch, nada, nuttin'. WE find out via gaming media, not PGI. This goes for a whole slew of communications issues, they don't treat us as testers whatsoever.
  
• Where is the community involvement? Tied to the last point, often times PGI presents us something with the attitude of "here it is, we don't care what you have to say, we're doing it" locking threads and stating things like how "this isn't about whether X should or should not be included it's for feedback solely about X." This is a huge spike in the community, community ideas just sit there (for example wtf do we do with the Command Console, community ideas sit there, the actual item just sits there, PGI says it'll be for things like the air/arty strikes, it doesn't happen, PGI doesn't say anything, the community asks wtf?, PGI doesn't say anything, the community asks wft?, the community just gives up because it doesn't have a clue as to whether or not PGI is listening, or the forums explode because the community wants to know wtf is going on, some shred of dev knowledge, anything, etc etc), and PGI presents things with a certain haughty attitude telling us how it's going to be and there is no other option for the community but to violently lash out, because if we're Beta Testers then there should be TWO-WAY communication.
  
• When PGI says they'll do something (Command Chair on ECM for example) it takes MONTHS to hear anything and even then it has that haughty attitude of "yup, we looked, sftu l2p" this kind of attitude applies to the Ask the Dev's too, they will often include a question which has already been addressed or better yet answer "No" and simply move on. We all know they're busy, but especially in a medium like that where the sole purpose of the thing is to get community involvement and dev responses and we get "No" it does the community as much good as just not addressing the question to begin with. Put some amount of time into the things. Heck cut the number of questions down a bit so they can actually formulate a coherent response.

I know these things have really brought me down from being a Beta Tester, so because of that I don't feel like I'm actually part of a Beta.

[MischiefSC]

darkfall13, on 05 April 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

I don't think Beta is what we're looking at here. Money or not that's not the issue to me. The issue being we're Beta Testers right? What are we testing (heavy server load and nothing else)? Who knows, half the time they're pretty lax with communication on the MWO site (THE place us Beta Testers should be visiting regularly, not so much for this game it seems, great place for entertainment I've come to learn) which brings me to some big points.

• Patch Notes: It will always be my biggest gripe until PGI starts handling themselves correctly and with some pride for the work they do, both good and bad, let us look at what they've presented us and have a dialog. (CCP's patch notes for EVE, now there's some all inclusive changes document), how are we to test anything if there's things not listed in the patch notes. Do they care if we test them at all at this point? I'm not even talking about bugs, just things included that were obviously meant to be, but not stated.
  
• We being the Testers and Community find out things after the fact, take for example the upcoming CW pay-to-play-together scandal. Did PGI come to the forums (lol) or Twitter (apparently MWO's official news source) and tell us anything about their plans on that? Nope, zilch, nada, nuttin'. WE find out via gaming media, not PGI. This goes for a whole slew of communications issues, they don't treat us as testers whatsoever.
  
• Where is the community involvement? Tied to the last point, often times PGI presents us something with the attitude of "here it is, we don't care what you have to say, we're doing it" locking threads and stating things like how "this isn't about whether X should or should not be included it's for feedback solely about X." This is a huge spike in the community, community ideas just sit there (for example wtf do we do with the Command Console, community ideas sit there, the actual item just sits there, PGI says it'll be for things like the air/arty strikes, it doesn't happen, PGI doesn't say anything, the community asks wtf?, PGI doesn't say anything, the community asks wft?, the community just gives up because it doesn't have a clue as to whether or not PGI is listening, or the forums explode because the community wants to know wtf is going on, some shred of dev knowledge, anything, etc etc), and PGI presents things with a certain haughty attitude telling us how it's going to be and there is no other option for the community but to violently lash out, because if we're Beta Testers then there should be TWO-WAY communication.
  
• When PGI says they'll do something (Command Chair on ECM for example) it takes MONTHS to hear anything and even then it has that haughty attitude of "yup, we looked, sftu l2p" this kind of attitude applies to the Ask the Dev's too, they will often include a question which has already been addressed or better yet answer "No" and simply move on. We all know they're busy, but especially in a medium like that where the sole purpose of the thing is to get community involvement and dev responses and we get "No" it does the community as much good as just not addressing the question to begin with. Put some amount of time into the things. Heck cut the number of questions down a bit so they can actually formulate a coherent response.

I know these things have really brought me down from being a Beta Tester, so because of that I don't feel like I'm actually part of a Beta.

As someone who's submitted support tickets and bug reports in the appropriate forum I'd say we're part of a beta. Just that PGI, in having it an open beta, is pretty gentle in what it expects back from people. Not to mention that since almost everything happens server side they get thousands and thousands of test examples for balancing purposes and as they roll out 12v12 and CW will continue to get tons and tons of test data regardless of what people submit.

This is exactly what an open beta is. A closed beta is a smaller group of people who work more directly with the developers, open beta more about testing an experience closer to what the RC will look like.

[Vermaxx]

So...this is a three page thread wherein you argue with people about whether or not this meets the technical definition of "open beta?"

Fine, you win the argument you created. You also aren't going to change public opinion that "open beta" is a cover for the slow progress PGI has shown. Who cares about terms? I have zero info on how Clan play is going to work, sketchy info on CW in general (some of which seemed to trivialize me as a player for choosing House over Merc), and the game is falling strongly behind its OWN timeline gimmick.

This is most definitely an open beta, you win. It is an open beta that has gone on too long, that spent too long in closed beta for the level of progress CB produced, and continues to roll out new features without really tamping down the old problems. Open beta is a technically applicable term that feels like it is attached to make up for shortcomings. We win that argument.

Or rather, we all lose...because the game is still in open beta, with glaring issues, lack of content, and the only thing that seems to come out regularly is another halfarsed way to spend money on this unfinished product.

[MischiefSC]

Vermaxx, on 05 April 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

So...this is a three page thread wherein you argue with people about whether or not this meets the technical definition of "open beta?"

Fine, you win the argument you created. You also aren't going to change public opinion that "open beta" is a cover for the slow progress PGI has shown. Who cares about terms? I have zero info on how Clan play is going to work, sketchy info on CW in general (some of which seemed to trivialize me as a player for choosing House over Merc), and the game is falling strongly behind its OWN timeline gimmick.

This is most definitely an open beta, you win. It is an open beta that has gone on too long, that spent too long in closed beta for the level of progress CB produced, and continues to roll out new features without really tamping down the old problems. Open beta is a technically applicable term that feels like it is attached to make up for shortcomings. We win that argument.

Or rather, we all lose...because the game is still in open beta, with glaring issues, lack of content, and the only thing that seems to come out regularly is another halfarsed way to spend money on this unfinished product.

Let me help -

in your opinion.

Needs to be added to everything you said.

Everyone else gets that the game is an open beta. We're investing time, effort and money into it because we lack the impulse control or concern for that matter that the game isn't finished. We want to play it anyway. Want to spend money on it.

Open beta can go for years. Game development takes YEARS. Several in fact. It's got enough content to test the new features that get added every week - which is exactly what an open beta should have.

You don't have info on this other stuff.....

because it's in open beta.

Go away for a year. Come back. You'll have a finished product. One that we'll all have been enjoying in the open beta form for a year with all the complications that entails but then you don't have to deal with it still missing things you want. Trying to imply however that PGI has been anything but absolutely honest about the games state is disingenuous. It's unfair and a bit narcissistic - it's assuming that your opinion of how things should go has any baring on the reality of it.

MWO is advancing pretty quickly. Updates every week, content/major updates every 2 weeks. That's pretty damn quick for a project of this size. Faster than most software development.

The big problem here is that you're mistaking your own expectations and impatience for realistic expectations and timeframes. It's going to have bugs. Some of them (anything that isn't a show stopper or fits in the 'major' or 'critical' bug report lists) may even make it to the Release Candidate or even into gold/production.

That's not new. That's existed since the first days of DOS at least. Probably as long as there's been software.

Your opinions do not equate to reality though. The problem isn't PGI, it's your perception and desire for MWO to be further along than it is. That's not rational man. It's not. Nor reasonable. You may feel that way but your feelings don't translate into any sort of facts. Not that your feelings are not valid for what they are nor are they an invalid reason for you to decide it's taking longer than you have patience for and go. That doesn't mean however that PGIs method is at fault or they've been anything but honest ABOUT THAT (3PV, consumables and the like are another issue. Don't mistake me for a PGI fanboi) it means that you're not happy with playing a game in open beta.

[Vermaxx]

Neither does the opinion that MWO is right where it should be for this length of time.

I don't care how other projects went. I didn't pick a day-for-day setting in 3049-into-3050 for a game that still lacks the actual game. We're into 'shart is happening' days in Battletech-3050, and the game still lacks the ability to even fight over planets.

Sure, I'll admit my posts are grossly biased opinions. Everyone else needs to do that. The people who AREN'T generally have very low post counts, because they realize there is no point in posting in most of these threads.

This game is technically in open beta. Everything else said in this thread is an opinion, whether it was a post or a response.

[MischiefSC]

Vermaxx, on 05 April 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Neither does the opinion that MWO is right where it should be for this length of time.

I don't care how other projects went. I didn't pick a day-for-day setting in 3049-into-3050 for a game that still lacks the actual game. We're into 'shart is happening' days in Battletech-3050, and the game still lacks the ability to even fight over planets.

Sure, I'll admit my posts are grossly biased opinions. Everyone else needs to do that. The people who AREN'T generally have very low post counts, because they realize there is no point in posting in most of these threads.

This game is technically in open beta. Everything else said in this thread is an opinion, whether it was a post or a response.

Here's the thing though. It's not 'technically in open beta'. It is literally in open beta. You can say that you wish they'd started sooner, or hired more people, or worked longer hours or whatever you want to wish happened that made the game get developed faster so that it would be done NOW.

The reality is though that the game is in open beta. It's not finished. It's months away from being a release candidate - which means all the CORE content is there but not all desired features. That's still months away. The game is not a finished product though and PGI is very clear with that. Saying you think it should be by now is.... well, an opinion? It has nothing to do with the validity of MWO being an open beta or that PGI has been dishonest. They've said 'here's what we'd like to see get done in the game' and 'this is what we have now and here's what we're working towards'. That, literally, is the definition of being in open beta.

For some of us that's fine. I don't mind, I'm enjoying what is available right now. In 6 months or a year when the game has gone gold release it'll have everything they said they wanted for release like CW and we'll see what the game population is then. Right now they're trying to fund it without a big publisher so they need to monetize every step of the way to pay for further development. That's fine, I'd far rather see that happen than have it get its soul ********* by someone like EA until it's some cookie-cutter POS that's got 20 hours of content for $60 and another 8 sets of 1 hour DLCs for $10 or $20 each.

[Rejarial Galatan]

KuritaGuard, on 03 April 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

<snip>

Your OP works ONLY if there is a subscription fee attached at the end of Open Beta when a game 'officially launches.' This does not work at all with a Free to Play title, as the INSTANT you unlock the servers and go into 'open beta' you have formally launched the product. This is made all the more real and poignant when you start selling premium items such as premium time or hero mechs for real money and categorically state: no more wipes or MC refunds. This game IS launched. Period. Is it broken beyond reason? yes. does this change the fact that it is fully launched? nope. Stop using the excuse: it is open beta. it is launched, end of story.

[Roadbeer]

Hey, I have a question.

Who here is old enough to remember when Beta actually meant that you were trying to test the game, and not just use it as a preview to have a leg up on the competition before it went "live" and the forums were for the most part feedback and not QQ?

Good times.

[matux]

Quote

It generally begins when the software is feature complete.

This must be an alpha then because the software is not feature complete e.g. CW and UI 2.0

Quote

Open betas serve the dual purpose of demonstrating a product to potential consumers, and testing among an extremely wide user base likely to bring to light obscure errors that a much smaller testing team might not find.

If the bugs since "open beta" are smaller and obscure v those in Alpha GEZZZZ glad i didnt have to endure those.

MischiefSC, I dont see how it can be anything other than the two stated below

The game is still in Alpha, as it not feature complete, by definition that you stated and we are being mislead by the use of the term "beta", regardless of open or closed. Also suggesting the there was a need to rush to open beta (which they did do and is a known fact)

Leaving people to possibly feel cheated and used to fund development of a rushed product, say angry even.

OR

This is open beta, the features in the game are critical/major features and for the most part are working as intended, leaving things like minor features e.g Consumables and content, Left to be implemented. Also suggesting that anything that is introduced from now till final release was not important to the game and its core functionality.

Leaving people to possibly feel as the majority of the game is complete not worth paying for at all.

Which is it?

[Rejarial Galatan]

PIRATEMECH, on 05 April 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

deleted

nope, not open beta. 1. its a Free to Play title, as such, the moment it was open to the general population, it launched. 2. they are collecting monies from players <sometimes huge amounts, like 30+ USD for a SINGLE item> this is CLEARLY in launched mode, as they are actively 'profiting' from us.

[MischiefSC]

Rejarial Galatan, on 05 April 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

Your OP works ONLY if there is a subscription fee attached at the end of Open Beta when a game 'officially launches.' This does not work at all with a Free to Play title, as the INSTANT you unlock the servers and go into 'open beta' you have formally launched the product. This is made all the more real and poignant when you start selling premium items such as premium time or hero mechs for real money and categorically state: no more wipes or MC refunds. This game IS launched. Period. Is it broken beyond reason? yes. does this change the fact that it is fully launched? nope. Stop using the excuse: it is open beta. it is launched, end of story.

.....

So I'm going to link again to where I list all the definitions of what an open beta is.

Here.

That you don't understand what an open beta is or what a product being 'launched' is doesn't change the definition of the terms.

'Open beta' isn't a shield. It's a definition, one that is clear and well established, of what stage of development a product is in. This isn't open for debate. I listed a bunch of links to the definition of the term 'open beta'. Just up this page in fact. I just gave a link back to the post where I gave those definitions. Then I copy and pasted in the definition of what 'open beta' is.

You're also using the term 'product launch'. Clearly you don't understand what that is or what it means. Definitions of words and terms isn't fluid. You don't get to decide that it 'feels like a full release' or that 'it's fully launched'.

Absolutely MWO has been launched - that means it was introduced to the market. You can launch a product without even selling it yet - you've just demoed it and made people aware it exists. That has nothing to do with its development cycle. If you mean full product launch then no. It's not a full product launch. That would mean we would be several stages past the point where you've got a full release candidate and a freeze on all changes and development. Also you'd have your full marketing process in place for sales of the product and any sort of testing and development of it would have been finished and in fact frozen. Which hasn't happened.

That you don't get that just kills me. You're mistaking your opinion for reality.

matux, on 05 April 2013 - 10:44 PM, said:

This must be an alpha then because the software is not feature complete e.g. CW and UI 2.0

If the bugs since "open beta" are smaller and obscure v those in Alpha GEZZZZ glad i didnt have to endure those.

MischiefSC, I dont see how it can be anything other than the two stated below

The game is still in Alpha, as it not feature complete, by definition that you stated and we are being mislead by the use of the term "beta", regardless of open or closed. Also suggesting the there was a need to rush to open beta (which they did do and is a known fact)

Leaving people to possibly feel cheated and used to fund development of a rushed product, say angry even.

OR

This is open beta, the features in the game are critical/major features and for the most part are working as intended, leaving things like minor features e.g Consumables and content, Left to be implemented. Also suggesting that anything that is introduced from now till final release was not important to the game and its core functionality.

Leaving people to possibly feel as the majority of the game is complete not worth paying for at all.

Which is it?

The game is feature complete - the core of the game, big stompy mech combat with pretty much all weapons in game. The core features are all there, all the things that need testing are in some form present. The expansion of the handful of maps and game modes into CW and the balancing and refinement of that hasn't even started yet. Could you say that CW is in alpha? Sure. MWO as a battletech mech combat simulator though is in beta.

It looks like they pushed into beta early to monetize the game to avoid having to go venture capital, debt or selling their soul to a publisher to fund the game. I'm 100% for that. I'd rather it be crowd or consumer funded, you get a far better product. If you want to argue that they opened up beta too early that's a legitimate argument - save that I have no problem with playing, even paying to be playing, a game that is still in beta because it's better than no MWO at all.

That does not, however, change the fact that the game is in open beta. The features such as Community Warfare is *not* a core function of the game - it's the social overlay. Fights in CW are not going to be significantly different, what will be different is the purely social metagame around what those fights mean. Given that they're talking about CW rolling out in a 2-4 month range and having a projected release candidate 2-4 months after that I'd say the expectations of how complex or involved the creation of the CW functionality is pretty minor. You could make a 'community warfare' website and do it all on spreadsheets even. All that's doing is tracking win/losses and participants and organizing the drops themselves along those lines.

The game is in open beta. Please read the list of definitions of what an open beta is. Then google 'product development lifecycle' or 'product lifecycle management' and understand the difference between inception, development, launch, maintenance and EOL of a product. Software or otherwise. Then you'll see that any attempt to say that MWO isn't an open beta product being monetized by voluntary player purchases is 100% wrong.

Collecting money has nothing what so ever in any way, form or fashion to do with the game being in open beta. Nothing. At all. In any way. If you feel like it should that's a personal problem. It has nothing to do with the game being in open beta and people still paying for it voluntarily. The term 'launch' also clearly doesn't mean what Rejarial Galatan and other people seem to want it to mean.

If you say the game isn't in open beta then you are wrong. Silly sort of wrong. Stomping your feet and pretending the words mean something other than what the definition of them says they mean doesn't make it so. It just makes you look silly.

[Rejarial Galatan]

MischiefSC, on 05 April 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

<snip>

I cut your post out because well, its long, and it honestly, it would bury my reply. Look, it is like this. This is not my first rodeo in the Beta playground. In all bluntness, this had 2 phases ONLY of beta. Friends and Family which was in truth more an 'Alpha' test, then, they handed us the keys in Closed Beta. I was part of CB. I sent in my share of bugs and glitches, but, here is where you are confusing the issue. A game can only claim to have an Open Beta IF the company intends to earn monies from its sale <non mmo/online only games> OR monies from its sale and concurrent subscription fees <non mmo, but online games and mmo games such as say WoW> in which case, they can open the game up, free of charge to the general population to allow a larger test bed. This, is NOT the case with Free To Play Titles whose sole source of income is from things like Founders sales <here> or more often the Micro Transactions that take place, such as selling in game novelty fluff items for 1-5 bucks a pop, or in MWO's case, up to if not past 30 bucks a crack for in game NON fluff stuff, MC, Premium time, Hero mechs.

This game has no purchase price, no subscription fee, and 'no real need to invest any money' what so ever. So, this game does not have an Open Beta Phase, and as such, this game, like it or not, is launched.

[DCLXVI]

PIRATEMECH, on 05 April 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

deleted

im waiting for 500 word essay on what difference it makes. every franchise is selling their games in alpha and beta now whether they are or not, it attracts attention, if they wanna call it a beta into 2014 let them. saves them explaining themselves when somting goes wrong