75 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

TML Winston, on 03 April 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

I think the real issue with clans is that a hardpoint cant be a hardpoint, since OmniMechs can place whatever, wherever. Thus, put an AC20 on both arms of a "clan atlas" and see what happens? Omni = Omni.

Dire Wolves with 5 Clan Gauss Rifles. Everywhere. You heard it here first.

[ShadowbaneX]

Prathios, on 03 April 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

The clans are not supposed to be balanced. All this does is illuminate, once again, the glaring inadequacy of 1.4 dhs. Using a borked heat system to nerf the clans is a rage inducing idea for a Battletech game.

Rage inducing? I'm strangely comfortable with the idea.

[Karr285]

Franchi, on 03 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

No it was becasue we would have jenners coring atlai in 4 seconds.

Im glad you believed that Lie they fed you.

considering jenners dont even have to run anything but the 10 True DHS in their engines.

atlas CT 62 structure points + probably anywhere from 28-20ish rear armour. so what godly jenner in this game has a 40-45 damage alpha cuz 4 seconds you will get 2 shots in.

plain and simple PGI LIED even a 6 med pulse jenner is 36 damage and sacrifices either Armour or Speed to do this and still cant achieve this mythical recreation.

Edited by Karr285, 03 April 2013 - 07:56 PM.

[FupDup]

Scratx, on 03 April 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

*cough cough*

ER Medium :
Year Availability Clan = 2824 (CJF)
IS = 3058

ER Small :
Year Availability Clan = 2825
IS = 3058


Can you see the problem here?

Year availability doesn't change the point.

Also, comparing a Clan ER laser to the IS standard laser of the same class is not really what I'm concerned about. It's the fact that a Clan ER Medium Laser is a 1 ton IS standard Large Laser with less heat that might cause some issues. The CERSL is almost like an ISML but that isn't nearly as important.

Edited by FupDup, 03 April 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Nova: the firepower of a 6xLL Stalker per hand.

[OneEyed Jack]

Karr285, on 03 April 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

Im glad you believed that Lie they fed you.

considering jenners dont even have to run anything but the 10 True DHS in their engines.

atlas CT 62 structure points + probably anywhere from 28-20ish rear armour. so what godly jenner in this game has a 40-45 damage alpha cuz 4 seconds you will get 2 shots in.

plain and simple PGI LIED even a 6 med pulse jenner is 36 damage and sacrifices either Armour or Speed to do this and still cant achieve this mythical recreation.

Hyperbole maybe?

Royalewithcheese, on 03 April 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

Nova: the firepower of a 6xLL Stalker per hand.

I was chuckling over this the other day reading a post where people were freaking out about Clan UAC20's.

[Karr285]

OneEyed Jack, on 03 April 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

Hyperbole maybe?

really using exaggerations to base reasons why to balance something? So i guess we cant have clan mechs then cuz a Puma will 1 shot an atlas in the front CT.

regardless doesn't change the fact their reasoning was a light mech that doesnt even need to use external HS to function at all.

Edited by Karr285, 03 April 2013 - 08:10 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

You know what can core an Atlas in 4 seconds? (Assuming standard energy firing times and sensible back armor.) Modified Firemoth-D. 42 damage per alpha. 14 tons of robot, 6 tons of ER Medium Laser.

[Bettysue]

Prathios, on 03 April 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

My God you're right! How on earth did Mechwarrior 1-4 and LL get around this glaring issue... sigh.

I am imagining unlocking equipment for credits and/or XP. Perhaps after a fight as salvage.

[TehSBGX]

Davers, on 03 April 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

Now if they are going with BT canon, that means the Clans will have a large tech advantage for years of real time.

This is Why I'm calling their will be at least one time skip with this game. They'll likely jump to 3058 After a Couple years or 3060's to the Tech evens out. They pretty much pushed themselves into a corner with the clan invasion, yeah it's a huge thing plot wise but the IS just has nothing on Clan tech so a time skip or two will be manditory for the game to even itself out.

[Prathios]

Davers, on 03 April 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

Well, how did they?

Never played either, but what I have been hearing is that IS got to use a lot of Clan stuff, or they had their own equivalents. But in the timeline that PGI is going by, it will be years until the IS makes their own versions. And Clan tech isn't compatible with IS tech.

Now if they are going with BT canon, that means the Clans will have a large tech advantage for years of real time.

Well, I honestly didn't stop to think that you wouldn't know that. In all the other games you can simply use clan tech once you have it. If you can salvage an clan er-ppc then it's yours. The IS didn't get equivalents, they literally just used clan stuff. Including rebuilding their mechs to become clan compliant. But here is the fun part that none of us know. The IS takes months to even destroy 1 clan mech on a battlefield. So even after they invade, "nobody" would have access to their stuff. So the question becomes, who gets to use their stuff? In a game like this or the other mechwarriors, the minute you allow access to any of it, everyone gets to have it.

Otherwise, I'm totally cool with 10 v 12's or some other workaround.

[ShadowbaneX]

TehSBGX, on 03 April 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

This is Why I'm calling their will be at least one time skip with this game. They'll likely jump to 3058 After a Couple years or 3060's to the Tech evens out. They pretty much pushed themselves into a corner with the clan invasion, yeah it's a huge thing plot wise but the IS just has nothing on Clan tech so a time skip or two will be manditory for the game to even itself out.

Given the somewhat Fascist nature of the Clans I'll borrow a line from Uncle Joe: Quantity has a Quality all it's own. Again, like WW2, a single Tiger tank could knock out several T34s or Shermans, but there were only 1350 Tiger tanks built. There were 58,000 Shermans and 84,000 T-34s made.

Prathios, on 03 April 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Otherwise, I'm totally cool with 10 v 12's or some other workaround.

I think a Star is worth about two Lances so it might be more like 10 vs 16.

Edited by ShadowbaneX, 03 April 2013 - 08:34 PM.

[Davers]

ShadowbaneX, on 03 April 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

Given the somewhat Fascist nature of the Clans I'll borrow a line from Uncle Joe: Quantity has a Quality all it's own. Again, like WW2, a single Tiger tank could knock out several T34s or Shermans, but there were only 1350 Tiger tanks built. There were 58,000 Shermans and 84,000 T-34s made.

I am doubt the Sherman drivers took comfort in knowing those facts.

[Scratx]

FupDup, on 03 April 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Year availability doesn't change the point.

Also, comparing a Clan ER laser to the IS standard laser of the same class is not really what I'm concerned about. It's the fact that a Clan ER Medium Laser is a 1 ton IS standard Large Laser with less heat that might cause some issues. The CERSL is almost like an ISML but that isn't nearly as important.

The reason it does change the point and it is relevant a comparison is because, as far as the Clans are concerned, the CERML is their medium laser. And the Inner Sphere's equivalent is a pile of stinking poo in comparison.

Look, I understand your point, but understand mine. The Inner Sphere does not have Extended Range versions of anything but the Large Laser (and the Particle Projection Cannon), so any comparisons have to be done against the closest analogues.

And yes, a CERML is so ridiculously good people will call hax when they start dying to Nova Primes...

[Silentium]

It helps that T-34s were arguably the best medium tank of both that and later eras. For many years all tanks were really just some flavor of T-34 re-heated with extra sauce.

The OP has a good point though. I think what is being overlooked is that even with this consideration, clan mechs will be dangerous at any range. What I mean is that the pilots will likely stick to whatever they have equipped for the range, so lrms at long, but mostly lazor fire at ~400 meters, or whatever analagous weapons they might be carrying.

Well, that's how I would manage it at any rate.

[Bettysue]

Davers, on 03 April 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

I am doubt the Sherman drivers took comfort in knowing those facts.

I understand the Sherman rounds would bounce off of the Tiger.

[Joker Two]

Remember that Clan lasers are automatically ER or Pulse versions, and their autocannons are either LB-X or Ultra. Yes, a Clan ERMLAS generates more heat than an IS MLAS, but when compared to its actual counterpart, the IS ERMLAS, it generates the same heat for more range and damage. Plus, with XL Engines that can survive the loss of one side torso, 2-crit DHS, and 7-crit Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fibrous, they can pack in more equipment. The modified heat system won't balance Clan 'Mechs any more or less than it has Inner Sphere 'Mechs.

[Ryvucz]

I... thought this was already covered a few months ago.

[ShadowbaneX]

Davers, on 03 April 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

I am doubt the Sherman drivers took comfort in knowing those facts.

Not really, no.

Then again the American combat tactics was sorta based around the idea that tanks fought infantry. It was the tank destroyers/air support that was supposed to deal with the tanks.

Bettysue, on 03 April 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

I understand the Sherman rounds would bounce off of the Tiger.

From the front? Yeah. From the flanks or from behind they had a chance if they were closer. Well, that's for the more basic Sherman. The Sherman Firefly, a British (and other Commonwealth troops like the Canadians) variant had a much better gun mounted on it and it could penetrate the armour on Panthers & Tigers and standard ranges.

Anyway, this is all just a parallel. Yeah, the Clans are better equipped, but the point still stands: there's a hell of a lot of people & mechs in the Inner Sphere and the Clans sorta have to worry about supply lines. It's gonna be a mess, but things will likely balance out.

Edited by ShadowbaneX, 03 April 2013 - 09:00 PM.

[Merky Merc]

IS gains access to clan tech. IS mechs pull out IS weapons for clan weapons. IS gets post clan invasion mechs. Then all the factions can battle it out with relative balance for planets x,y,z or whatever. And thus we move on.

Time warps forward, needed if we're going to introduce clans to our current game. And I want clans to be introduced as my favorite mechs either are clan or are responses to clans.