61 replies to this topic

[orion33]

Over the last few months I've noticed that the average damage is getting lower and lower. In most of the games I'm actually playing, a lot of the players don't do more than 200-300 damage. This could have several reasons:

- Host State Rewind leads to more accuracy and the mech is cored quite faster than before.
- OP-Builds are well known by the community (especially alpha-builds/boats)
- Disparity between experienced and new players has grown

In the end, from my point of view a pug doesn't last as long as it should do. I've played a lot of games where a clash lasts about 45 seconds. after this, either one team is completely down or there are some lights left who are being hunted easily by the whole winning team.

I think this is not what a "Mech-War" should be. Even an Atlas is being cored quite easily in a short period of time with some builds.
Don't get me wrong, it still should (and will) be necessary to stay in cover and to stick with your team!

Particularly with regard to newbies a single wrong move, when a OP-build with a good player is able to shoot 2 well aimed alphas, can result in 3 second death, even when he was at 100%.

So I vote for increased armor or durability at all for ALL mechs. Though this could have advantages for PGI as well:

- Money sink (because matches last longer)
- Alpha-/OP Builds become weaker and less dangerous
- This leads to a better balance
- Alternative builds become more interesting and competetive.
- New players have more chances to realize what they did wrong instead of dying almost instantly without having a clue what was going on)

This is not a whining thread, it's only about having no fun to stomp or being stomped (not that often ) in less than 60 seconds and about missing the feeling that we are sitting in heavy war machines and not in a plastic-robot.

[Onmyoudo]

I think it's worth testing. It's Beta, after all, and extra armour could change things up a bit for better or worse. They could always revert changes if necessary.

[Devil Fox]

The problem is PGI have forced the gameplay to high alpha boats... then further compounded this fact into that PPC heat was reduced, and larger maps... the end effect is sniper boats, then all the enemy team have to do is sit on a hill or in a limited approach location and just alpha any mech that attempt to engage... it's just a snipefest because the game has been slowly nerfed and broken down into only a few viable battle tactics.

[Drenzul]

Problem here is more the high heat capacity vs low heat dissipation which makes these high alpha builds viable. A good 4 man with 2-4 high alpha builds can fairly easily one-shot a Atlas, which is wrong. 6 PPCs or similar heat builds should pretty much be shut-down after a single shot.

[Elizander]

When I shoot a guy in the head, my damage doesn't really go up.

[wonator]

No.

[Tennex]

they doubled armor. but what about internal.

normally it would take equal amount of effort to get through armor and internal. but right now losing your armor is a death sentence


Critical hits would have been applicable half the time. And tearing through armor doesn'tmean the mech dies in 2 more shots.

Edited by Tennex, 04 April 2013 - 04:52 AM.

[Kissamies]

I have noticed that it's very easy to get cored especially in an assault mech.

[LT Kinslayer]

I voted no, because then they will be forced to change ammo per ton values for all weapons as well.
I want ballistics to stay thank you.

Sustained damage becomes less valuable, simply because it will take even longer than it does now to take an enemy down. So this will actually increase, not decrease, the need for high alpha coordination. You may live a few seconds longer but you will still not have a chance, unless you get better. Dying from simple mistakes is the best way to learn not to make said mistakes.

PS: I also want SRM's and LRM's fixed so missles are valuable again
Game will be WAY too boring if there is only energy weapons around, even though I prefer them myself.


edited for borked initial layout

Edited by LT Kinslayer, 04 April 2013 - 04:45 AM.

[OpCentar]

Nothing will change until they find a way to nerf boating in general.

Everybody figures out sooner or later that there's no point in taking a PPC, LL and a pair of MLas, when you can just boat 3xPPCs. It's simpler to fire and brings concentrated firepower thus becoming more effective than a balanced build.

Heat is no problem if you know a thing or two about weapon grouping.

[Karl Streiger]

I have the same experience.
Based on different weapon stats from different former Mechwarrior games

I assert that every shot with a large laser will hit directly the targeted area with 100%
It last only ca. 10sec to bring down a Atlas in MW2 (10 shots)
35 sec in MW3 (10hits)
55 sec in MWO
60 sec in MW4
65 sec with Solaris IV Rules
100 sec in TT and MechCommander (when shots will hit)
150 sec in MWLL

You must consider that not every shot of the tactical games will hit. You have to consider that the MW3 heatspike make it nearly impossible to fire a large laser with its high rof - without overheating.

I think 150 sec is a good value...to calculate with...means...reduce damage or rof or increase heat for weapons in MWO

Edit: mistake....its 55sec in MWO

Edited by Karl Streiger, 04 April 2013 - 05:05 AM.

[orion33]

Drenzul, on 04 April 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Problem here is more the high heat capacity vs low heat dissipation which makes these high alpha builds viable. A good 4 man with 2-4 high alpha builds can fairly easily one-shot a Atlas, which is wrong. 6 PPCs or similar heat builds should pretty much be shut-down after a single shot.

You are right, but improved durability of a mech forces the alpha build to hit more often... so in the end heat becomes a problem. Actually 2 6x PPC alphas can core you. Thats exactly what you are able to fire with a Stalker without having heat problems. So if this Stalker have to shoot twice as much alphas (4x) to get the same result, the time needed for this will increase like 3x/4x due to heat dissipation.

Edited by orion33, 04 April 2013 - 05:01 AM.

[Syllogy]

orion33, on 04 April 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

You are right, but improved durability of a mech forces the alpha build to hit more often... so in the end heat becomes a problem. Actually 2 6x PPC alphas can core you. Thats exactly what you are able to fire with a Stalker without having heat problems. So if this Stalker have to shoot twice as much alphas (4x) to get the same result, the time needed for this will increase like 3x/4x due to heat dissipation.

It's a good thing that the devs have already decided that Laser and Ballistic damage is pretty much where it needs to be in comparison to Armor on mechs.

Drenzul, on 04 April 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Problem here is more the high heat capacity vs low heat dissipation which makes these high alpha builds viable. A good 4 man with 2-4 high alpha builds can fairly easily one-shot a Atlas, which is wrong. 6 PPCs or similar heat builds should pretty much be shut-down after a single shot.

Concentrated Fire from multiple players will ALWAYS trump the single player that is being targeted. It doesn't matter if they are using PPCs, Medium Lasers, AC2's, or Flamers.

Edited by Syllogy, 04 April 2013 - 05:05 AM.

[Kiiyor]

I've noticed the same thing. Missile nerf?

[KinLuu]

orion33, on 04 April 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

You are right, but improved durability of a mech forces the alpha build to hit more often... so in the end heat becomes a problem. Actually 2 6x PPC alphas can core you. Thats exactly what you are able to fire with a Stalker without having heat problems. So if this Stalker have to shoot twice as much alphas (4x) to get the same result, the time needed for this will increase like 3x/4x due to heat dissipation.

The Problem with your idea is that higher durability favours high alpha builds even more. Alpha builds minimize the time out of cover, while doing maximum damage in minimum time. This is so good, because sustained DPS builds lack the dps to destroy a target fast enough - you can not expect to engage an enemy without taking a lot of damage yourself, because it is not possible to burst it down. Unless you outnumber or outgun the enemy massively. With an high alpha build on the other hand, especially with poptarding, you can easily kill one or more enemies if you are good. Without taking much damage in return.

[Kiiyor]

Syllogy, on 04 April 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

Concentrated Fire from multiple players will ALWAYS trump the single player that is being targeted. It doesn't matter if they are using PPCs, Medium Lasers, AC2's, or Flamers.

True that. If I had a dollar given to me every time an Atlas with an invulnerability complex strode into the enemy and evaporated before whining about lack of support, I MAY be able to afford the Heavy Metal.

Edit; stupid phone.

Edited by Kiiyor, 04 April 2013 - 05:13 AM.

[Zyllos]

More evidence that pin-point accuracy and heat are issues, if you ask me. No, it doesn't matter if your not asking me, your getting my opinion (along with many in the community).

If all those alpha strikes hit in slightly different locations and chain firing enabled pin-point accuracy, you would see mechs living longer. Alpha strikes spreading damage, so it takes longer for a section to open up and chain firing taking time to line up and fire all the weapons to a single location would bring more tactical gameplay since there is a choice between how to fire your weapons.

This also opens up the ability that while alpha strikes might spread damage, they facilitate the ability to torso twist away from your target while chain firing allows control of damage but you have to keep facing your target.

Right now, you alpha strike all weapons that are in range and can hit, or you don't fire. That, in my eyes, is a huge problem with MWO. If your not hitting the same location again and again, your considered wasting time/ammo.

Why should it ever be considered wrong to shoot at a mech?

Edited by Zyllos, 04 April 2013 - 05:17 AM.

[jay35]

Apostal, on 04 April 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

The problem is PGI have forced the gameplay to high alpha boats...

No, first of all they haven't forced anything. Second, they doubled the armor values to enhance survivabiltiy so it's actually FUN. So there's actually engaging combat and some back and forth, not just one-sided sneak attacks and sniper kills.

Quote

then further compounded this fact into that PPC heat was reduced, and larger maps... the end effect is sniper boats,

I still have yet to find a single build where I would want a PPC over Lasers. Granted, I don't snipe much, and since they just nerfed the hell out of Thermal, there won't be much effective sniping anymore. So you already have your wish there.

Quote

then all the enemy team have to do is sit on a hill or in a limited approach location and just alpha any mech that attempt to engage... it's just a snipefest because the game has been slowly nerfed and broken down into only a few viable battle tactics.

You must be having flashbacks to MW4, because that's certainly not the case in 99% of MWO matches.

Heat is fine. Accuracy is fine. Loadouts and builds are fine.

Honestly, some of you just go around constantly looking for something to complain about being OP or needing a nerf. Another fine example of a thread PGI will hopefully just ignore, like the "add more restrictions in the mechlab" nonsense going on in another thread.

Edited by jay35, 04 April 2013 - 05:18 AM.

[John MatriX82]

We are already working with 2X armor, and by this boating/cheese is a quick consequence of the current ballast, along with the faster reload times (if I remember correctly, in MW4 Gauss recycled in 6 or 8 seconds, here we have four).

Now a single AC 20 isn't so tremendously feared as it should, so what do you do? Oh yes, you bring two of them!

Boating or big alpha builds are effective, first because you don't need to deal with many different weapon systems, second because having a good alpha allows to get out of cover -> place the shot -> return to cover to cooldown -> change cover exit rinse & repeat.
In such an environment, it's pretty normal that high DPS builds will never do good as they should, because who develops high DPSs need to stay in the open, needs a clear target to keep firing on, but this target fades away after placing 4 ppcs twice in your side torso to kill you.

So what about headshots? Adding more armor will lead to use esclusively high alpha builds, even more than what happens now.

Boating can be addressed by further balancing certain weapons. Besides the negiglibe heat, whenever I have 7 tons free I don't really find any reason to use a LPLAS instead of a PPC or even an ER PPC.
The same goes for MPLS compared to Mlasers. In both cases the higher dps isn't worth the extra weight, heat and the huge range restrictions. Make that MPLS weight 1.5 tons each and LPLSs 6 tons or even 5,5 and you'd see more brawlers around relying on them.


LRMS.. a quick nerf is to limit the launcher size to the available tubes. You have a mech with the RT that has 15 tubes and you have 2 missile hardpoints in there? Good, you can either place a single LRM15 and a SRM launcher as a backup or you can go with a LRM10+LRM5. Stop.

Stalkers wouldn't be able to go dual LRM20 + dual LRM15 (side torsoes would allow only a single LRM5 each) and only true missile boats would arise (STK 4N, Catapult C4, Awesomes, TBTs, HBK 4J, eventually Atlases), not as it is now.

The same could be done also for SRMS. Splatpult A1s would not be existing, since you could only mount either 2xSRM6+1xSRM2 or 2xSRM4+1xSRM6 at maximum since each arm would allow only 15 total tubes. But you could combine LRMs with SRMs to limit the moaning factor (something like this CPLT-A1 could be allowed).

Centurions wouldn't be able to hold more than SRM6+SRM4 having 10 tubes only and so on, but they could combine LRM10+SRM4+SRM6 on the CN9-A ).

[Loxx]

Damage is finite, meaning one team can only do so much damage in a match before there's nothing left to shoot. If a person has a high damage score it means 1 of 3 things.

He's a great shot that took out half the enemy team. READ: Carried the team.
He's a great shot but against a team of players that know how to spread their damage.
He's got good accuracy but completely imprecise. He himself is spreading his damage out on an enemy mech(s) (IE death spiral) firing and hitting enemy mechs all over the mech instead of trying to hit the same spot every time. IE shot discipline.

The team you want to fear is the team that no member breaks 400 damage but cored the entire enemy team. Because that means they are all great shots AND hitting the same spots every time.

Edited by Loxx, 04 April 2013 - 05:35 AM.