164 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

Roadbeer, on 04 April 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Anyone who thinks this game is release when 2/3 of it's 'pillars' haven't even been implemented yet, is completely off their rocker.

A ''pillar''...?

OH, you mean ''feature or content that the developer claimed the game would have, way back when they were still dreaming up what they could come up with and maybe would be able to actually code, which they may or may not still intend or even be able to create in the future''.

Yours is a very ironic comment in the context of this particular game. How many ''pillars'' did you see in that fantastic MW5 teaser video which kicked this game off a few years ago? What does the CW ''pillar'' actually consist of - many threads in these forums are about increasing concern that there is neither clarity nor commitment to the CW ''pillar''.

By your definition, MWO could go from ''closed Beta'' to ''dead and buried'' without ever launching, because something you saw as a ''pillar'' never actually got coded.

[Allen Ward]

I totally agree. the common terms like Beta or Open Beta don't mean much anymore. they (not PGI alone) have created something new, it's a new marketing concept which mixes everything up. back in the 90s games have been released (= sold) and were as buggy as MWO is now. The publishers then released a patch nearly as big as the games very shortly after that. Where is the difference? This "new" Open Beta allows devs to mass playtest and finetune during development. BUT it also creates very high levels of expectations and frustration, as players are involved at a very early stage. and pay for it (yeah, they don't have to, but come one...thats what its all about).

I am not satisfied with this mix of free-to-play-still-in-beta talk, as it is very often used as a lame excuse for "we are not ready yet". Hey, I could develop a game for 10 years and never come out if beta in doing so... finaly the player base would shrink, but it seems that many people are willing to swallow a lot and even pay good money for a promise...

I wish all the best for MWO and PGI, I want to play a good mechwarrior game, and I know that my personal definition of a good mechwarrior game will be different from many others... I just can't stand the way how the game is being delivered. lobby game in late summer? along with clan invasion? I guess this game will not come out of beta in 2013.

[Appogee]

l4Dl, on 04 April 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

Its not really PGi's fault, the whole "Beta" as a sale product is now second nature. Just look at all the Facebook games with "Beta" status and making millions, its insane.

This is the way i see the current games market definition of "Beta":
Alpha = Internal Testing
Closed Beta = Initial Funding/testing. Deny refunds as game is "Beta"
Open Beta = Mass Funding/testing. Deny refunds as game is "Beta"
Release = When we know we cant be sued for any faults on our part. Deny refunds initially, then, commit to them.

Your comment rings very true.

[Belorion]

BLUPRNT, on 04 April 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

Beta, definition of,
: a nearly complete prototype of a product (as software) <released in beta> <the beta version>
http://www.merriam-w...dictionary/beta

Or

http://www.internets...-definition.asp

I don't see how "us giving them money by OUR choice" or "that it is open to all public for free access by OUR choice" changes this definition.

The definition of beta had to change a little with more shops shifting to a continuous release cycle with agile programming. In case you are curious PGI, uses the Scrum development methodology.

http://en.wikipedia....8development%29

I think I remember then stating that their sprints were around two months long. With several sprints overlapping each other set apart by approximately two weeks. So at any given time they are working on 4ish builds.

[Appogee]

Syllogy, on 04 April 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

I fixed it for you.

You can also quote Kim Jong Un telling me that his nuclear missiles are ready to strike the White House, if you like. But that doesn't mean a thinking person has to necessarily agree with his spin

(Yes, I just equated Russ Bullock with Kim Jong Un. Surely this is a meme in the making.)

[Roadbeer]

Appogee, on 04 April 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

A ''pillar''...?

OH, you mean ''feature or content that the developer claimed the game would have, way back when they were still dreaming up what they could come up with and maybe would be able to actually code, which they may or may not still intend or even be able to create in the future''.

Yours is a very ironic comment in the context of this particular game. How many ''pillars'' did you see in that fantastic MW5 teaser video which kicked this game off a few years ago? What does the CW ''pillar'' actually consist of - many threads in these forums are about increasing concern that there is neither clarity nor commitment to the CW ''pillar''.

By your definition, MWO could go from ''closed Beta'' to ''dead and buried'' without ever launching, because something you saw as a ''pillar'' never actually got coded.

Pillars.

http://mwomercs.com/...munity-warfare/
http://mwomercs.com/...mation-warfare/
http://mwomercs.com/...3-role-warfare/
http://mwomercs.com/...warfare-part-i/
http://mwomercs.com/...blog-6-mechlab/

I don't count anything that was in the MW5 teaser because that is an entirely different project, and is off the table.

And yes, the game can go from Closed Beta to dead because it didn't live up to the promises made during production. Wouldn't be the first time, or the 10th time.

[Davers]

Appogee, on 04 April 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

s are about increasing concern that there is neither clarity nor commitment to the CW ''pillar''.

By your definition, MWO could go from ''closed Beta'' to ''dead and buried'' without ever launching, because something you saw as a ''pillar'' never actually got coded.

Actually it would be from 'open beta' to 'dead and buried'.

Which is always a possibility if the game doesn't draw revenue. It would be a shame if that were to happen. Mechwarrior would truly be dead and buried for good then.

[Appogee]

Belorion, on 04 April 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

The definition of beta had to change a little with more shops shifting to a continuous release cycle with agile programming. In case you are curious PGI, uses the Scrum development methodology.

Thanks. That is very interesting and sheds interesting further light on the subject.

[Darwins Dog]

Oh look, an original thread with an original topic.

No I'm just kidding, this is like the third one of these I've seen today. Same basic arguments too, but kudos to you for using more words than most of them.

Do you honestly think that PGI is ignoring big issues because it's beta? I figured that they're just hard to fix, and they want to get it right. If you read some of their posts they even explain how they are improving this process, and working on the issues as fast as they can.

Also, it's beta because the people making it say that it is. It's really that simple. They've decided that the product is not ready to call a full release, or a final version, so it has been labeled beta. There are actually no rules at all regarding what a company can or cannot call beta. So welcome to the Mechwarrior Online Beta!

[Odins Fist]

Appogee, on 04 April 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

"''but It's A Beta'' O Rly...?"

MWO is not in Beta...

1. MWO is open for play by anyone who wants to sign up. It already has thousands of players.
2. MWO's developers are selling products - MechCredits - and the game is producing revenue.
3. MWO is not a closed trial of code being tested and readied for launch, with a focus on reporting of bugs, analysis of balance, and incremental patches addressing bugs and balance issues. In fact, MWO's developers are focusing on earning income first, adding new content and features second, and squashing bugs third. (If MWO was a Beta, their order of priority would be reversed.)

These are things that intelligent/educated people have been saying for literally months now...

An unfinished product brought to "MARKET", and selling goods and services, is still an unfinished product that has been brought to market.

Testing, ok, we are still testing, I understand that, but still using the "It's Beta" excuse is both sad and tired.

MWO is not limited to certain players, it is available for "ANYONE" on planet Earth to play, and purchase goods and services from, and that in itself absolutely disqualifies the term "BETA" being applied..

I played BF3, they did weapons balancing, released new maps, sold new content, and that wasn't in BETA when I did all that.
You can't buy a car that's in BETA, you can pre order, but you don't get to drive it before it's released.

Sad and tired old excuses are still sad and tired excuses, regardless of yet to be released content.
END OF STORY...

[BlackWidow]

Appogee, on 04 April 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

I respect your opinions.

While we can argue about the definition of what a Beta is or isn't, my key concern is that ''it's a Beta'' seems to get used to excuse issues which have apparently remained unaddressed for months, and that a patch was released which was so insufficiently QA'd that it broke the game for many players.

I am quite willing to hear that I am wrong, or that I'm too new to understand. But the cry of ''it's only a Beta'' did really strike me as odd given what I've seen and am seeing.

Ok, your not really hung up on the beta-non-beta thing. You are apparently tired of people using IT'S BETA as an excuse for all the bugs, lack of content etc. Correct?

Then it's *really* simply a matter of understanding it's an UNFINISHED product currently UNDER DEVELOPMENT. We have the option to spend money to try out some of the features and help support staff for said development. Or...we have the option to NOT SPEND A DIME and still play.

There is no hidden agenda. PGI states clearly this game is in development. Not all features are implemented. Bug still exist. Balance issues are still being addressed.

Generally speaking, they aren't looking to get rich off this (IGP maybe, but not PGI) They want to make enough income from transactions to *continue* to make a game they love to build and one (hopefully) we love to play.

And to those folks that want to say posts like mine are knee jerk, brown nose defenses of PGI need to chill. I wouldn't feel the need to express my counter concerns if they would stop treating PGI as if they were all working for Bobby Kotick.

Read the blogs. Read the bios. These guys (based on previous titles) may not have been the best AAA developers coming into this thing but they all seemed to love the Mechwarrior franchise and have the needed passion to want to do it justice. And all this is done with a TOTAL staff (including non-programmers) of 50 people, I think they have done a phenomenal job in the year they have had it.

Give them one more year (hell, 6-9 months)and the extra 50 people they are trying to hire currently. I think you will see not only an amazing successor to the MW franchise but a AAA team coming out the other end.

[jakucha]

Odins Fist, on 04 April 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

You can't buy a car that's in BETA, you can pre order, but you don't get to drive it before it's released.

That's probably because cars have the potential to kill you or others. Game software can't, not in any sensible way at least.

[Odins Fist]

jakucha, on 04 April 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

That's probably because cars have the potential to kill you or others. Game software can't, not in any sensible way at least.

Totally irrelevant to the debate.. try again

BlackWidow, on 04 April 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Give them one more year (hell, 6-9 months)and the extra 50 people they are trying to hire currently. I think you will see not only an amazing successor to the MW franchise but a AAA team coming out the other end.

That is the real issue here, while I totally understand the position of the DEVs, and that they need more time to fully finish MWO, there is an unfortunate reality to this situation, and that is "How long to you think people are going to wait", and not because they don't like MWO, but because player retention is directly related to the attention span of online gamers. If consumers do not feel satisfied with a product, then they will not spend money on said product, that is the simple reality of the situation.. Everything else is semantics.

Edited by Odins Fist, 04 April 2013 - 01:44 PM.

[Karr285]

I used to be on the its Beta bandwagon but the Devs ignore us for the most part, and refuse to do even the smallest changes we suggest to fix glaring issues (ECM MAJOR), in beta you change something test it then if its good keep it if its bad rollback the patch. Has PGI ever done this? No. All they do is do internal testing ( that also seems nonexistent) then push the patch and tell us to deal with it. This method of development is more along the lines of a released game with bug fixes and content updates.

[Heeden]

The Beta tag is not there as an excuse, it is there as a warning.

It means you will be playing a game which is not in a state - both in content and stability - where the developers feel it is worthy of being put on "release".

The fact it is labelled beta means you should be expecting bugs to crop up and content to be a little thin. PGI have said they will consider it ready for live when it is mostly stable (nope), has had a final pass at balancing (nope) and includes Community Warfare (nope). At the moment they have it pencilled in for Sept 21st at the latest.

[sokitumi]

This has gone around and around forever. Some people will just believe whatever a dev co. will say. PGI is smearing the gray area between beta and release pretty hard. The state of PC online gaming in 2013 is jukey as smite, and PGI is just opportunistically making a rolling start with a trendy business model and pre-made dedicated fanbase vomiting dollars at them with the hopes of a decent MW finally. I suspect the real reason they refuse to admit it's released is this.

Edited by sokitumi, 04 April 2013 - 01:50 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Davers, on 04 April 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

You may not like the terminology, but the fact is the game is not in a complete stage and is still being actively worked on and added to. Not just content like mechs and maps, but actual core parts of the game. So you can call it whatever you like, but it is an work in progress.

WoW is being actively worked on.
Since 2003.

Does that make it an open beta, too?

[jakucha]

Odins Fist, on 04 April 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Totally irrelevant to the debate.. try again

Not quite. It was an example you presented that made no sense.

Vassago Rain, on 04 April 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

WoW is being actively worked on.
Since 2003.

Does that make it an open beta, too?

The difference being they finished adding core elements a long time ago. This game, not so much yet.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Appogee, on 04 April 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

''But it's a Beta''...

But I guess whatever makes you sleep at night. Keep telling yourself that.

[LordBraxton]

Roadbeer, on 04 April 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Yawn. Wrong.

It's not Beta, it's not release, old terms need to be redefined.

I can use the argument that I've paid for Beta before when I paid $45 for a disc and shipping back in the UO days, before you could download a whole game in less time than it takes to eat lunch, and it was explained how I was wrong in my analogy, meh, whatever.

Anyone who thinks this game is release when 2/3 of it's 'pillars' haven't even been implemented yet, is completely off their rocker. And anyone who says that that fact doesn't mean anything when it can be released as DLC expansions doesn't understand the concept of what a 'Release" product is.

Im in the middle on this one, because while you are making a lot of sense now

I don't think we will get anymore 'pillars'

This game with always be arena mech brawls, thats the only pillar.

Im not expecting CW to be more than a disappointment's for people to flame about.

Edited by LordBraxton, 04 April 2013 - 01:55 PM.