143 replies to this topic

[MacKerris]

I don't believe that I am going to say this......but the game's not finished. At some point there should be some final balancing act and we can all pray that every mech has a place.

Don't feel bad, I often pilot a spider. Current worst mech in the game.

[Vahnn]

I have this strange feeling that you're talking about a dream you have in which you are being served sushi with mech components instead of fish.

"Excuse me, sir, my roll is filled with Wang..."

'Mechs should play no role in sushi preparation.

Oh, and I do great with my 4H, 4SP, YLW. They are quick, great flankers, and capable of scaring away lights who try to harass and distract your assaults and heavies, so they can stick to dishing damage to the enemy instead of trying to spin their way out of the death circle from lights.

[Davers]

I pilot mediums a lot. And I have matches where I do well and top the scoreboard too. No one is saying that mediums CAN'T ever do well. But on average, heavy mechs like the Cataphract and Jager perform better across the board. Even matches when I am the first person killed I can still do 300 damage in a heavy. One bad move in a medium and I end up with a 100 point match.

[Nutlink]

I love my mediums. LOVE 'EM. But more often than not they're still crap compared to others.

[Bazukyuu]

My CN9-A is stronger than any heavy mechs. A bit less power, much speed, less collisions, and so it bring me great damage control maneuver.

[aniviron]

Rocdocta, on 04 April 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

i drive mediums because they are fun and its what i want to use. I dont get into the whole optimisation idea. It is a game after all...

But part of the fun of a game is having an equal shot at winning using different tactics. Because of how Elo works right now, if everyone played purely competitively we would see no mechs except CTF-3Ds and AS7-D-DCs- but most people balance their desire to have fun with their desire to win, weighting one way or the other. What OP is asking for is that the people who weight their decision of mech more towards the fun side and who also enjoy playing medium have the same shot at winning as people who pilot mechs that are better.

[Davers]

BadKarma7, on 04 April 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

You first mistake is not dropping in a Centurion. Symmetry is overrated. Take half my 'mech, I'll pew pew with the other half - you just have to ask yourself, do you want to die from the missiles, or all those lasers?

I wouldn't mind being a bit smaller though. =)

Is this because Centurions are so good, or because SRMs were so good? Imagine if your mech ran at 150 instead of 98. Would it be better?

[ItsAPotato]

Tezcatli, on 04 April 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Basically you're saying that you have to make up the deficit between a medium and a heavy, with more skill. I think that applies to everything. So if a greater skilled heavy comes across you, then you're boned.

Just because some people can overcome the disadvantage with skill. Doesn't mean there isn't a problem. I don't think they need a buff. But Elo alone isn't cutting it, we need total tonnage restrictions.

Yes, but than extra skill is allowing me to do just as much damage and get just as many kills as a heavy, except I'm going much faster, which fills a mobility role that heavies cannot (excluding the Dragon).

Mediums are designed to bounce between fights on the map, able to quickly bring their firepower to bear on opposite ends of the map. This is a role that heavies CANNOT fill (Dragon excluded). In addition, with enough skill, these same mediums can also do just as much damage as the heavies. I'd say that makes them a much more valuable mech to have on the field than any other. You just have to have the ability to make it so.

I don't see anything wrong with potentially the most powerful units in any game also being the most difficult to wield.

This kinda makes it seem like I'm tooting my own horn. I don't mean it to be that way (though as my grandfather always said: "He who tooteth not his own horn, geteth it not tooted" =P)

Edited by ItsAPotato, 04 April 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[Puppeteerxerxes]

Riffleman, on 04 April 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

you would do better in a similarly speedy heavy. And that is the whole point. Everyone would

I do a lot better in my mediums (all the cents and hunch's) than I do in my heavies. I've mastered cent, hunch, pults, dragons, and am 1/2 done with phracts. My k/d ratio is nearly a full point higher in the mediums, and W/L ratio better too.

(And don't blame the dragons, I did as well with them as my mediums, the phracts and pults pulled me down.)

I don't know why it works out this way, but that's why my individual mech stats tell me.

[Belorion]

Davers, on 04 April 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

I pilot mediums a lot. And I have matches where I do well and top the scoreboard too. No one is saying that mediums CAN'T ever do well. But on average, heavy mechs like the Cataphract and Jager perform better across the board. Even matches when I am the first person killed I can still do 300 damage in a heavy. One bad move in a medium and I end up with a 100 point match.

I would say recently I have been doing better with my mediums than I have with my heavies...

[Deathlike]

valkyrie, on 04 April 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

>Garth and Phil
>good
Pick one. Garth pointed out that Phil is below him in Medium rankings, and Garth is...well, I've never actually seen Garth win a match.

LOL

Note: I believe the sentiment to be true somehow.

Edited by Deathlike, 04 April 2013 - 08:02 PM.

[BadKarma7]

Davers, on 04 April 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

Is this because Centurions are so good, or because SRMs were so good? Imagine if your mech ran at 150 instead of 98. Would it be better?

Both - SRM's are weaker now, but far from useless. Thing is, between the missiles and CT lasers, it's a solid 'mech that can take a helluva pounding before going down. Played as I suggested, it's a force to be reckoned with.

As for the 150 KPH, no, it would not be better because 1) it'd be running an XL which is a liability in a 'mech that big (and that crap about cent's haveing small side torso's is bull - I down Cent D's all the time that way) ans 2) It changes the role completely. At that point, you're now in light 'mech territory and likely aren't packing the same firepower, making you less of an escort and more of a scout.

[Tharimiar]

I really don't see a problem with mediums at the moment. my CN9-A took a hit with the srm nerf, but in my yen lo wang I'm still in the top three on my team every game. People don't seem to understand that the primary function of a medium is a support mech. You find an assault or two and you use them and the terrain as cover, darting back and forth while your weapons cool down in order to deal maximum damage. Because they're so focused on the huge assault class mech, they don't notice that the real threat has been dps'ing them down the entire time.

Mediums still play an important role in the game, it's just not as a primary attacker, its as backup to your heavy weapons platforms, a.k.a. the assault class.

[valkyrie]

ItsAPotato, on 04 April 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

Yes, but than extra skill is allowing me to do just as much damage and get just as many kills as a heavy, except I'm going much faster, which fills a mobility role that heavies cannot (excluding the Dragon).

Mediums are designed to bounce between fights on the map, able to quickly bring their firepower to bear on opposite ends of the map. This is a role that heavies CANNOT fill (Dragon excluded). In addition, with enough skill, these same mediums can also do just as much damage as the heavies. I'd say that makes them a much more valuable mech to have on the field than any other. You just have to have the ability to make it so.

I don't see anything wrong with potentially the most powerful units in any game also being the most difficult to wield.

This kinda makes it seem like I'm tooting my own horn. I don't mean it to be that way (though as my grandfather always said: "He who tooteth not his own horn, geteth it not tooted" =P)

The part you're missing is where that "extra skill" would mean you'd be doing even BETTER in a Heavy.

I'm fairly confident in my Medium fighting abilities. My Founder's Hunch and CN9-AL were my go-to 'Mechs all throughout Phase 2 Matchmaking, which my friends appreciated because it meant someone on the other team was going to be in a Medium too, and I'd mop the floor with them 9 times out of 10. But now? It's a handicap to your team, plain and simple.

Let me ask you this - why would I want to take my Hunchback, which goes about 70-something KPH with Speed Tweak, when I can grab my JagerMech with double the firepower that goes about the same speed, but with more armor and staying power since I don't risk losing 90% of my firepower when my AC/20 goes out?

You keep saying "with enough skill Mediums are viable" and never stop to think "well why not just pilot a heavy and have the advantage in skill and power while sacrificing a tiny bit of speed?" MWO's maps are also either entirely too small or too large for the "rapid redeployment" concept to be of any value, and don't act like it's not the truth. That 10 KPH you lose going from a Cent-A to a Catapult isn't a huge deal.

[Glaive-]

Mediums are exceptionally good. Just because they don't fill the same role as heavies and assaults does not make them worse.
You really can't judge them by score because obviously heavies and assaults are going to do more damage then them. It's the mix of firepower and speed that gives mediums their place.

And don't give me any of that "lights can do more damage than mediums" nonsense. You are wrong and you should feel silly.


Of course, I do agree with the OP that weight limits would be great, but mediums do not need such a system to be viable.

Edited by armyunit, 04 April 2013 - 08:40 PM.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Mediums wouldn't appear to be so lackluster in comparison to Lights and Heavies if the matchmaker would at least match weight classes across different teams, though it is true that the damage reduction for SRMs has reduced the effectiveness of some of the most stellar Medium 'Mech builds.
This has essentially destroyed Mediums in high-level play except for a few Laser-based builds.

No, most matches in the 4-man and solo queue do not count as 'high-level play' - I made a 2x ERPPC RVN-4X and a 6x MPLS JR7-F with no almost armor both work very well in that queue; anything goes in these matches and even a 9x FLAMER HBK-4P can get kills, in my experience.

Ah, how I once longed for the days long past when I could duel multiple Lights, Heavies and Assaults in a single match with a CN9-A or D and come up as the victor each and every time; it was the 'Mech I used when I was in a bad mood and needed a winning streak to pick me up - no longer, however, do I entertain such thoughts.
I know I can do much better in my CTF-1X even matched against good opponents, and that I won't risk a severe weight mismatch against my drop team if I should pilot this 'Mech.

Puppeteerxerxes, on 04 April 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

I do a lot better in my mediums (all the cents and hunch's) than I do in my heavies. I've mastered cent, hunch, pults, dragons, and am 1/2 done with phracts. My k/d ratio is nearly a full point higher in the mediums, and W/L ratio better too.

(And don't blame the dragons, I did as well with them as my mediums, the phracts and pults pulled me down.)

I don't know why it works out this way, but that's why my individual mech stats tell me.

Belorion, on 04 April 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

I would say recently I have been doing better with my mediums than I have with my heavies...

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if your Heavy weight class Elo rating proved to be higher than your Medium weight Elo.
It would explain why your Medium 'Mech matches are easier - that is apparently how it goes for most people whom pilot Medium 'Mechs occasionally, though I doubt Garth will be so gracious as to post in this thread to confirm my suspicions.
If I'm correct, then hopefully PGI will notice that the Elo ratings for the Medium weight class are considerably lower on average and make balancing measures to bring it in line with the rest of the classes.

Or maybe they'll just increase the priority of weight-matching in the current matchmaker.

This would be sufficient, I think.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 04 April 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[valkyrie]

armyunit, on 04 April 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

Mediums are exceptionally good. Just because they don't fill the same role as heavies and assaults does not make them worse.
You really can't judge them by score because obviously heavies and assaults are going to do more damage then them. It's the mix of firepower and speed that gives heavies their place.

Dat Freudian slip.

[Artgathan]

I personally don't care much for Hunchbacks or Trebuchets but I do love my Centurion. I do quite well in it (averaging 400-500 damage a game). I run at 89 kph and have decent fire power (UAC5, 2 ML, 3 SRM4) to bring to bear as well. I can outmaneuver heavy and assault mechs (allowing me tastes of that sweet, sweet rear armor) and I can torso twist and run fast enough to be a significant threat to lights.

I consistently go toe to toe with mechs that outweigh me and come out on top. Mediums are far from useless. Just don't use them as assault mechs: you need to flank and use cover. Let the assault mechs on your team charge headlong into the enemy - support them as they do, but don't make yourself an easy target.

Edited by Artgathan, 04 April 2013 - 08:33 PM.

[Riffleman]

In high team elo matches, you will not see a medium mech, because they are a burden on teams. That alone should tell you regardless of how much you "pwn" in a medium mech, when they count (aka not just a fun time game) they are not up to par.

[Royalewithcheese]

Artgathan, on 04 April 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

Just don't use them as assault mechs: you need to flank and use cover.

Assaults need to flank and use cover, too. As do heavies.