354 replies to this topic

[Ph30nix]

while item salvage would be a great addition for players PGI will NEVER implement that at least not outside of CW, and probably have to be a premium member as well. Imagine how much it would screw with their timesinks if someone salvaged an AC/20 or a gauss or some other very expensive item.

[Morhadel]

I did not like R&R but that was because it was done half ***.
"damn its going to cost me 200,000 cbills to repair, but at least i got 1 LL, 2 ML, 1 LRM10, and this damaged CNA-9A chassis out of it"

Salvage to the winning side.

[jay35]

Missing R&R? Absolutely not. Anything that has the potential to punish players into an even longer grind is bad for business. Not to mention how it stifles creativity in the mechlab and turns it into a pauper's game where a majority of players can't afford to run what they own. A stupid concept, really.

Edited by jay35, 06 April 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[Petrothian Tong]

problem with salvaging actual items/chassis is....

unless PGI makes it so you can ACTUALLY LOSE STUFF ***another can of worms.... and PGI will be taking the shotgun to its mouth and pulling the trigger.


well, lets just say PGI will pretty much loss all the appeal of selling premium.time

Edited by Petrothian Tong, 06 April 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[jper4]

to help the new players too i would have it deactivated during the 25 match bonus cash period they put in when you first start playing. that way they get to get a decent amount of cash going. then limit the R&R costs to where in worst case your cost is at 50% of a 0 dmg loss' earnings. that way there is some idea of repair bills but no one's match cbill totals are going to be soul crushing and force them out of the game. plenty of other games have small repair fees for damaged gear that doesn't really put anyone out of pocket. so i don;t see why some sort of small fee should be kept out but not to the level it was at before.

[Artgathan]

There were several problems with R&R. I won't discuss the people that abused it because it was a flawed system. The flaws themselves are more important.

The biggest problem was that it allowed for lazy balancing. A lot of players hide behind the "it was a risk vs reward system!" shield to deny this one. Balancing weapons by adjusting their prices is terrible game design. Think of it this way: if the developers had included a weapon that could one-shot any mech in the game (regardless of where it hit them), but it cost 1,000,000 c-bills to re-arm it would be justified from a risk-reward standpoint. Yes, it's a hyperbolic example. But it serves to illustrate a point.

Risk-Reward gameplay is this: I can bring an LRM5 with 1 ton of ammo or an SRM4 with 1 ton of ammo for 3 tons. If I bring the LRM5 I can engage targets at long range, but I'm vulnerable close in. Vice versa with the SRM4. That is risk reward: based on my choices I risk having weakness (being vulnerable at short or long range), but I reward having strengths (being powerful at long or short range).

Saying "I'll bring the SRM4 instead of the LRM5 because it's less expensive" is not risk-reward. When faced with choosing to bring a standard or XL engine (of the same tonnage), you should be thinking "can I afford the speed loss for extra survivability?", not "wow I can't afford to repair the XL. Looks like I'm running a Standard."

Secondly, the system allowed Premium / Founder / Hero Pilots an advantage over F2P Pilots. Since the Premium / Founder / Heroes pulled in more cash, they could afford to run fancier gear than F2P players. This is selling an advantage.

Thirdly, it is not enjoyable for a player to have to grind 3 matches in a poorly equipped mech to be able to play 1 match in their preferred upgraded mech.

Fourthly, it encouraged a greater disparity between above average and below average players. Since below average players would make less money they would not be able to afford more expensive gear. To make matters worse, they would, when facing an above average player, face an imbalance both in terms of skill and equipment - punishing them twice.

Repair and Rearm was a terrible system. I do not miss it.

[Petrothian Tong]

Tanar, on 06 April 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

to help the new players too i would have it deactivated during the 25 match bonus cash period they put in when you first start playing. that way they get to get a decent amount of cash going. then limit the R&R costs to where in worst case your cost is at 50% of a 0 dmg loss' earnings. that way there is some idea of repair bills but no one's match cbill totals are going to be soul crushing and force them out of the game. plenty of other games have small repair fees for damaged gear that doesn't really put anyone out of pocket. so i don;t see why some sort of small fee should be kept out but not to the level it was at before.

that system is fine, but not what most people arguing for R&R wants.. they want *mocking voice* Risk vs Reward*

theres no risk if you cant run red, they say.... and as per above poster, yah... read the guy above me.

*and not refering to ppl within this thread, but this topic been argued to death since R&R removal, and most of the for R&R side comes down to: *it forces people to play better and I am leet so I should take more stuff* by maybe 2 dozen people.

when in reality, it forces ppl out of the game ***but hey, leet ppl dont care, lol


but yes, most shocking repair bill I got was 1.5 million on my atlas (without XL engines, and I heard XL + millions to the bill). that was WTF moment... then I ran jenners since then lol **till they took R&R out.

Edited by Petrothian Tong, 06 April 2013 - 10:36 AM.

[ShadowbaneX]

I wouldn't mind R&R if there was an eject/surrender mechanic in the game. As it is right now, you might as well fight until the end, because if you power down and surrender the other team is just going to kill you anyway for the stats and the extra c-bills. If R&R were added back in and there was a way of surrendering if things were going horribly, to save on R&R costs.

For example, there have been several times where I've found myself playing as an LRM support mech with my CAT-C4 only to eventually realize that I was the last one alive in anywhere from 4 v 1 to 8 v1 and the enemy team closing in fast. I don't have a hope in hell of winning, but right now it's pointless. If you power down the enemy's just going to slag you anyway and in an R&R world that's going to be painful. I've already lost, now I've got even more taken out of the few c-bills I get because everyone on the other team wants to pad their score?

I think an option to punch out is needed if R&R comes back.

The problem is that it could be exploited (those familiar with Guild Wars might remember Red Resigns in which one team would automatically resign as soon as the match started for more matches, and more rewards). I'm not sure how to balance it, and I'm guessing PGI didn't either since they removed it, but just bringing it back isn't going to be doing PGI many favours.

[Vapor Trail]

Dudeman3k, on 06 April 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

we NEED R&R back is the thing.... Take War Thunder for instance. You can either repair out right for (c-bills) or wait 20 - 30 minutes for it to auto repair for free. gives meaning to Multiple garage space AND you wouldn't be gimping your team driving a broken mech in battle to begin with, as it wont let you drop with it.

I really like this idea. I'm going to take it and run with it.

Say, have a 30 minute lockdown period for a mech after a match. Every minute that ticks by, you get 1/30th of your R&R bill taken off. Paying the repair bill ends the lockdown.

Lets say you wind up having an R&R bill for a mech of 100,000 cbills. And you won a match and got paid 100,000 cbills.
So if you want to drop with the same mech immediately, it costs full R&R, and you will have made no cbills for that match.

But...

If you play three matches of 7 minutes apiece, in three other mechs, your repair bill for the first mech drops from 100,000 cbills to 30,000 cbills, meaning you made a profit of 70k. If you wait another 9 minutes before repairing, the repairs are free, and you get the full 100k from the drop the mech was in.

It puts pressure on the "high tech level" builds, because they're going to cost oodles to keep running, match after match, after match. And forces people to pay to be able to drop the same mech in game after game, unless they pay for multiple copies of the same mech (Which is pay for convenience...).

There could even be an MC leaseable (a lower-cost subscription type, rather than a high-cost purchase type) "Tech Team" which lowers the lockout time and increases the fraction of R&R shaved for every minute waited.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 06 April 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[Petrothian Tong]

Vapor Trail, on 06 April 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

I really like this idea. I'm going to take it and run with it.

Say, have a 30 minute lockdown period for a mech after a match. Every minute that ticks by, you get 1/30th of your R&R bill taken off. Paying the repair bill ends the lockdown.

Lets say you wind up having an R&R bill for a mech of 100,000 cbills. And you won a match and got paid 100,000 cbills.
So if you want to drop with the same mech immediately, it costs full R&R, and you will have made no cbills for that match.

But...

If you play three matches of 7 minutes apiece, in three other mechs, your repair bill for the first mech drops from 100,000 cbills to 30,000 cbills, meaning you made a profit of 70k. If you wait another 9 minutes before repairing, the repairs are free, and you get the full 100k from the drop the mech was in.

It puts pressure on the "high tech level" builds, because they're going to cost oodles to keep running, match after match, after match. And forces people to pay to be able to drop the same mech in game after game, unless they pay for multiple copies of the same mech (Which is pay for convenience...).

There could even be an MC leaseable (a lower-cost subscription type, rather than a high-cost purchase type) "Tech Team" which lowers the lockout time and increases the fraction of R&R shaved for every minute waited.

Well, this has to be one of the rare, not-stupid ideas I heard in a while.

doesnt really hurt PGI's wallet or nerf anyone out of game. might actually boost sales.

and give me a reason to play my dozen+ mechs...


but ppl still gonna whine is not Risk vs reward cause you can by pass it by waiting it out.

Edited by Petrothian Tong, 06 April 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[kitazari]

Dudeman3k, on 06 April 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

we NEED R&R back is the thing.... Take War Thunder for instance. You can either repair out right for (c-bills) or wait 20 - 30 minutes for it to auto repair for free. gives meaning to Multiple garage space AND you wouldn't be gimping your team driving a broken mech in battle to begin with, as it wont let you drop with it.

It would be nice to see time-constraints aid in weighting the price of repairs.
(Numbers here are just for show.)Have 300K in repairs? Wait 30 minutes and your faction will have it repaired for free, or 15 minutes and have it repaired for 150k.

I can imagine having this implemented during CW would allow people to pick whichever mech they want in quick succession to win battles at the cost of earnings.

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

I support any gameplay mechanic that punishes bad players disproportionately.

[ShadowbaneX]

kitazari, on 06 April 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

It would be nice to see time-constraints aid in weighting the price of repairs.
(Numbers here are just for show.)Have 300K in repairs? Wait 30 minutes and your faction will have it repaired for free, or 15 minutes and have it repaired for 150k.

I can imagine having this implemented during CW would allow people to pick whichever mech they want in quick succession to win battles at the cost of earnings.

This is more reasonable. I briefly played one of the MW games a year or two ago and I think they had something that the more damage a mech was the longer it was out of commission.

[Vapor Trail]

Petrothian Tong, on 06 April 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Well, this has to be one of the rare, not-stupid ideas I heard in a while.

doesnt really hurt PGI's wallet or nerf anyone out of game. might actually boost sales.

and give me a reason to play my dozen+ mechs...


but ppl still gonna whine is not Risk vs reward cause you can by pass it by waiting it out.

Actually the risk is still there, it's just watered down quite a bit.

If you run your high-cost build in match after match, and repair it immediately, you may wind up on the negative end of the bankbook... which is the risk of taking such a high cost build so often.

But if you play something else cheaper to repair while you wait for the timer on the high-cost to tick down to free, you're mitigating the risk by running a cheaper (and theoretically less powerful) build for somewhere in the neighborhood of 75% of the time.

[Tor6]

Balancing ingame stats by outside costs is a horrible way to do things in a multiplayer game -unless- both teams consistently face each other again and again over an extended campaign and the matches are a closed system.

Repair and rearm were stupid and poorly implemented and the fact that people are still complaining about people mounting xl engines and endo (which cost basically nothing to repair anyways) boggles my mind.

[Khanublikhan]

Think of how SWTOR crafting works - you send a crewmember away (for a cost) and they come back with a chance of success.

Think of how your own mech technican crew would work. It takes time to scrounge up the parts, it takes time to weld, it takes time to raid HQ and sweet talk a secretary into filling in form 3A and getting the Colonel to sign on the dotted line.

TIME - costs diminishing over time - as suggested above - would be an excellent representation of the time it takes to do repairs.

Nice suggestion Dudeman!

[DaZur]

jay35, on 06 April 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

Not to mention how it stifles creativity in the mechlab.

Sniffle creativity? You call our existing "jam as much top tier tech in your Mech and John Wayne every match" being creative? I argue that with R&R (Not necessarily our previous flawed iteration) it better encouraged creativity in that not only did one contemplate risk/reward but also encourage a player to consider engage at all range balanced design versus our existing and highly prevalent high-alpha designs.

Petrothian Tong, on 06 April 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

*and not refering to ppl within this thread, but this topic been argued to death since R&R removal, and most of the for R&R side comes down to: *it forces people to play better and I am leet so I should take more stuff* by maybe 2 dozen people.

when in reality, it forces ppl out of the game ***but hey, leet ppl dont care, lol

It's not a "I'm leet" thing at all... (I think you're letting your personal prejudice bleed through in saying that).

It was more a nod to players who enjoyed a little more role-playing in their big stompy shoot'm up mech game... Like I said, for people who made conscientious decisions in their mech design and played with a modicum of risk/reward, it made matches more enjoyable.

Yes, there were times when I screwed up royally (more often than not) and garnered very minimum profit. Then there were times I was well rewarded for playing an intelligent match and made more than enough profit. (Before you go all Founders on me... I blew through my premium long ago and rarely use my Founders Mech)

I appreciate and fully acknowledge that the R&R in it's previous iteration was an abortion and did suffer the ills you outlined. That said, MW:O would benefit from "something" resembling R&R again at some point and time.

[Burnsidhe]

I don't miss it at all.

If there were a 'campaign' mode, where such things mattered, then yes I could see repair and rearm costs being useful. But there's no campaign mode.

I don't use 'top of the line' in everything, for the simple reason that balancing space and weight is important. and XL engines are pretty much deathtraps no matter what mech it's put into. Either it takes up too many critical spaces for the weight savings to be worth it, or the armor that covers the side torsos is too thin, or ammo is stored in the side torsos.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ph30nix, on 06 April 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

im sorry taking weeks(depending how much yoiu play) of play time to earn enough C-bills to buy a 5+mil engine is enough of a time sink I dont want to have to spend an hour or two in the trial mechs to earn enough c-bills to keep my better mechs running.

This sounds more like a veiled "Stock mechs only" post.

I can grind enough money in a weekend to buy a 350 rate XL engine. Weeks to grind an Engine? If you play an hour or so a week sure. Engines are dang expensive for a reason. I had no problem with R&R. I Ran a Atlas LRM boat wit 11 tons of ammo and CASE. Before the we'll cover 70% of your losses. I played that Mech through the great depression and made money. We need a GOOD risk & reward system.

[DaZur]

Just for clarity... And before this good discussion thread burns to the ground...

I don't think any proponent of R&R in this thread can in good faith say the previous R&R was long-term viable for a myriad of reasons.

I think most if not all simply are in favor of some of the aspects of it that made MW:O "feel" as if it had more depth of play and encouraged a more cerebral flavor of gameplay.

Edited by DaZur, 06 April 2013 - 11:16 AM.