354 replies to this topic

[Nick Drezary]

Am I missing 2-3 suicide farmers every game? Nope
Am I missing tax for playing mech I want? Nope
Am I missing five hours of game and 0,5 million income? Nope
Am i missing punishment for surviving, instead of just standing still and getting a headshot? Nope
Am I missing light pilots that can faceroll whatever they want and sit on sacks of gold, while assault pilots are lucky if they not loose money after they've got first place of the winner team? Nope
Some people are saying game NOW is too grindy, with R&r it was grind horror for the most of new players and was scaring them away even if they already bought their own mech.
I think people that are missing r&r had premium account or were riding light/hero/founder mechs with bonus for C-bill income.
I really doubt, that PGI can make fair R&R system for every weight class player, so they've made a good choice removing them(******** it, you can't make fair and logical R&R in the game, where 30 ton and 2 million C-bills piece of junk 1v1 annihilates 100 ton 10 million c-bills monster ).

[DrSecretStache]

It was absolutely horrible in it's initial implementation. I wonder if people in this thread were around when it was there: it encouraged people to play in lights, and it basically meant that people in founder's/premium got a bonus over the free players, which wasn't fair at all. Also, it's what started the 'hide in a corner' mindset in the first place. you would get players that didn't want to die, and thus went to hide as the last mech, making the rest of the match completely boring for their team.

I didn't like it. It meant that I would make oodles of money in my commando. I never went higher than a hunchback, both because of the costs, but also because I woudln't be able to play it.

Realy, consider this. Free player's couldn't reasonably play in bigger mechs. They would just lose money. People with hero mechs, founders mechs, or premium time would be able to. That's not fair, and it turns players away.

HOWEVER, the system itself is interesting, and could be implemented properly. It can also be balanced properly. Here's how I envision it working to encourage good play:

-bigger mechs have higher costs, yes, but they also get bigger rewards. Fluff it how you like. Maybe they just get compensated better. This means that a player can play in any mech and not have to lose money.
-I really like the time idea of costs going down over time. This gives a fair way to escape it, while also encouraging people to play with/get lots of mechs, which in turn increases mech variety of play. That would make the system nice.
-Make R&R variable, as in, you can repair/rearm in increments on a slider. It doesn't make sense that you have to go all or nothing.
-Remove the free R&R bonus. The time constraint covers this.
-Sure, higher tech stuff can be more expensive. Why not.

The only thing I think should also be a requirement in such a system is that things should be balanced so that players can't go completely negative in a match, or at least the time option can prevent it. Founders/heros/etc do already make more money, but it shouldn't be that only they can play with bigger mechs, or play with higher tier equipment. It should simply be a bonus.

[Viper69]

Hell no and im glad its gone. It can eat a hot **** in hades. If you want it back you can join it for a meal.

[Jman5]

[LordBraxton]

balancing the game with out of game or metagame expenses is a bad idea every time

what you want is battle value, which would be awesome, and make cheap standard build mechs very viable

Edited by LordBraxton, 06 April 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[Sephlock]

I understand the reasons for missing it, but I don't. I don't play all that often anymore as it is, but I do want to grind up to a jager and maybe a highlander or two...

[Scarlett Avignon]

FerretGR, on 06 April 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

It encouraged bad gameplay.

You mean like people not giving a **** about playing suicidally now that they lose nothing if they die?

FerretGR, on 06 April 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

It encouraged c-bill farming via AFKing and suiciding with unrepaired mechs.

If that was the case, then the answer was not to allow unrepaired mech to launch. Much more effective.

[Master Maniac]

You want to lose something for failing? Fair enough, I see where you're coming from. It can add excitement to the game. But these guys above have summed up the cons of the R&R system in perfect detail. Every point is correct.

You want to lose something? Then how about an "Honor Points" XP-style system where pilots gain Honor Points per match, but lose an amount based on the damage they took. Meet an HP threshold, and you level up your "rank" or "title." It's a purely cosmetic system, but the possibility of losing a rank might be incentive enough, idk. Maybe players could get a one-time shot of MC for hitting a rank plateau?

OR, another possibility is making it so that "Merc" or "Lone Wolf" players have to do R&R, and faction players don't. Give yourself the choice of going hardcore, and balance it by giving mercs 3x the reward each match - because, y'know, mercenaries is expensives.

EDIT -
"You mean like people not giving a **** about playing suicidally now that they lose nothing if they die?"

Answer: see above. Survival bonus. Make it so that the bonus goes WAY up with every kill *if* you manage to survive the match.

Edited by Master Maniac, 06 April 2013 - 12:21 PM.

[Terror Teddy]

Khanublikhan, on 06 April 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

Maybe there could be a nomination system for "player of the match". That player could benefit from a C-Bill multiplier or a reduced R&R cost.

So essentially instigate a "Match Achievement" system perhaps?

Top Damage Dealer: +1% / 50 Damage
Top Killer: +5%/Kill
Master Capper: +5% / Cap
Headshotter: +25% / Headshot
Superb Savior: +5% / Savior Kill
Masterful Assistant: +5% / Assistance
Last Survivor: +10%
Missile Master: +5% / Missile Kill
Ballistic Master: +5% / Ballistic Kill
Laser Maser: +5% / Laser Kill
ECM Blocker: +10% for shutting down an ECM
Machine Gun Kill: +50% [Come on - you'd deserve it]
Captain Barbeque: +5% / Flamer Kill
The Surgeon: +5% / Kill with a critical hit
Kneecapper: +5% / Leg shot off
Arm Wrestler: +5% / Arm Shot off
S.k.e.e.t Shooting: +25% / for killing an enemy in the air

THEN we add penalties like:

Lead Sprayer: -5% for going out of ammo
Out of Gas: -25% Engine Destroyed
Pocket Bomb: -10% killed by ammo explosion
Limping Home: -5% for destroyed leg
etc...

Waddya think?

Serioulsy, what's with this language filter - S.k.e.e.t shooting is a sport.
http://en.wikipedia..../Skeet_shooting

Edited by Terror Teddy, 06 April 2013 - 12:22 PM.

[Noobzorz]

Whenever and wherever I've encountered it, R&R is a stupid mechanic that leads to spreadsheet play and moves the focus away from the actual game. It also causes ridiculous stuff like saving up to go all out and then devastating the four people who are in the buildup phase, or running crappy loadouts to generate more cash. I wasn't around for it during MWO, but from what I hear, it was absolutely no different.

It is good it is gone, and since PGI likes growing their playerbase, they will keep it that way.

Edited by Noobzorz, 06 April 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[Roadbeer]

Master Maniac, on 06 April 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Let's look at the same scenario. Exactly the same scenario, execpt at the end instead of a paltry, insubstantial reward the player gets a 500,000 C-bill repair bill - which is extremely optimistic from a realism perspective because, hey, his 'Mech got cored - instead. Several (successful) matches' worth of money, not including the possibility of more random bad luck.

Lulz, ok, you obviously weren't around when R&R was implemented last time, Mr. Member Since Feb 2013, so aside from expressing opinion, you really have no idea what you're talking about. So, don't try to be condescending and post figures as facts in hypotheticals when that's exactly not what was happening.


Those who were around, were around for the exploits and issues with it, Universally agreed upon as BAD.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY wants to see THAT return, all we're saying is the concept was nice.

Edited by Roadbeer, 06 April 2013 - 12:26 PM.

[Nick Drezary]

Franklen Avignon, on 06 April 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

If that was the case, then the answer was not to allow unrepaired mech to launch. Much more effective.

No, they would just farm in trial mechs.

[Master Maniac]

Terror Teddy, on 06 April 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

So essentially instigate a "Match Achievement" system perhaps?

Top Damage Dealer: +1% / 50 Damage
Top Killer: +5%/Kill
Master Capper: +5% / Cap
Headshotter: +25% / Headshot
Superb Savior: +5% / Savior Kill
Masterful Assistant: +5% / Assistance
Last Survivor: +10%
Missile Master: +5% / Missile Kill
Ballistic Master: +5% / Ballistic Kill
Laser Maser: +5% / Laser Kill
ECM Blocker: +10% for shutting down an ECM
Machine Gun Kill: +50% [Come on - you'd deserve it]
Captain Barbeque: +5% / Flamer Kill
The Surgeon: +5% / Kill with a critical hit
Kneecapper: +5% / Leg shot off
Arm Wrestler: +5% / Arm Shot off
S.k.e.e.t Shooting: +25% / for killing an enemy in the air

THEN we add penalties like:

Lead Sprayer: -5% for going out of ammo
Out of Gas: -25% Engine Destroyed
Pocket Bomb: -10% killed by ammo explosion
Limping Home: -5% for destroyed leg
etc...

Waddya think?

Serioulsy, what's with this language filter - S.k.e.e.t shooting is a sport.
http://en.wikipedia..../Skeet_shooting

You said "achievements." How did that get past the language filter? >:-(

[Hedonism Robot]

Repair and Rearm was a terrible system and its a good thing PGI removed it. Did you honestly like joining a match with 4 pugs all at 40% health at the start? This system did not keep people from boating big guns, it just kept people from brawling and playing cheap builds. Is the immersion you want a bunch of rag tag mercs fighting each other who are too cheap to repair their mechs before battle?

If items are underpowered/overpowered they need to be buffed/nerfed to open up more options. Repair and Rearm did none of this, it simply screwed new players over and people without premium time. Having bad mechs and items in the game is just wasted space and doesn't add any fun.

Part of what free to play and ELO bring to gaming is a level playing field. The reasons I see posted by proponents of R&R is they simply want the game to move toward a pay for advantage on the battlefield approach. This is the same reason consumables were met with hostility, but probably ten times worse.

Edited by Hedonism Robot, 06 April 2013 - 12:27 PM.

[jay35]

Artgathan, on 06 April 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

There were several problems with R&R. I won't discuss the people that abused it because it was a flawed system. The flaws themselves are more important.

The biggest problem was that it allowed for lazy balancing. A lot of players hide behind the "it was a risk vs reward system!" shield to deny this one. Balancing weapons by adjusting their prices is terrible game design. Think of it this way: if the developers had included a weapon that could one-shot any mech in the game (regardless of where it hit them), but it cost 1,000,000 c-bills to re-arm it would be justified from a risk-reward standpoint. Yes, it's a hyperbolic example. But it serves to illustrate a point.

Risk-Reward gameplay is this: I can bring an LRM5 with 1 ton of ammo or an SRM4 with 1 ton of ammo for 3 tons. If I bring the LRM5 I can engage targets at long range, but I'm vulnerable close in. Vice versa with the SRM4. That is risk reward: based on my choices I risk having weakness (being vulnerable at short or long range), but I reward having strengths (being powerful at long or short range).

Saying "I'll bring the SRM4 instead of the LRM5 because it's less expensive" is not risk-reward. When faced with choosing to bring a standard or XL engine (of the same tonnage), you should be thinking "can I afford the speed loss for extra survivability?", not "wow I can't afford to repair the XL. Looks like I'm running a Standard."

Secondly, the system allowed Premium / Founder / Hero Pilots an advantage over F2P Pilots. Since the Premium / Founder / Heroes pulled in more cash, they could afford to run fancier gear than F2P players. This is selling an advantage.

Thirdly, it is not enjoyable for a player to have to grind 3 matches in a poorly equipped mech to be able to play 1 match in their preferred upgraded mech.

Fourthly, it encouraged a greater disparity between above average and below average players. Since below average players would make less money they would not be able to afford more expensive gear. To make matters worse, they would, when facing an above average player, face an imbalance both in terms of skill and equipment - punishing them twice.

Repair and Rearm was a terrible system. I do not miss it.

This sums it up perfectly. You should save this post so you can easily repost it every time some troll pines for R&R.

[Master Maniac]

Roadbeer, on 06 April 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Lulz, ok, you obviously weren't around when R&R was implemented last time, Mr. Member Since Feb 2013, so aside from expressing opinion, you really have no idea what you're talking about. So, don't try be condescending and post figures as facts in hypotheticals when that's exactly not what was happening.


Those who were around, were around for the exploits and issues with it, Universally agreed upon as BAD.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY wants to see THAT return, all we're saying is the concept was nice.

And YOU aren't aware of the possiblity that someone can have a pretty good idea of a very simple concept without having to actually subject themselves to it - not to mention the fact that there are MANY other games with the same concept out there, most of which suck. I've been playing MW for years, son. Years. Several MW PC games had R&R as a core aspect of gameplay. AND they didn't ask you to grind for hours and hours to boot. So shove it.

[Sybreed]

Roadbeer, on 06 April 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Lulz, ok, you obviously weren't around when R&R was implemented last time, Mr. Member Since Feb 2013, so aside from expressing opinion, you really have no idea what you're talking about. So, don't try be condescending and post figures as facts in hypotheticals when that's exactly not what was happening.


Those who were around, were around for the exploits and issues with it, Universally agreed upon as BAD.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY wants to see THAT return, all we're saying is the concept was nice.

Exactly. It's one of the very few things that I like in WoT and for once the dev only had to copy their formula, which is to not let damaged tanks get in a game and give 0 free ammo. They just have to tweak the costs correctly so that you will be able to repair and rearm all the time from 0 to 100%, but failure to repair a mech will prevent you from have it get in a game. IMO, it's doable and it's something PGI should do.

It gives a brand "new" aspect to the game and it'll make faction warfare even more interesting since owning some fronts with factories could grant repair rebate or something.

[Khanublikhan]

Terror Teddy, on 06 April 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

So essentially instigate a "Match Achievement" system perhaps?

Top Damage Dealer: +1% / 50 Damage
Top Killer: +5%/Kill
Master Capper: +5% / Cap
Headshotter: +25% / Headshot
Superb Savior: +5% / Savior Kill
Masterful Assistant: +5% / Assistance
Last Survivor: +10%
Missile Master: +5% / Missile Kill
Ballistic Master: +5% / Ballistic Kill
Laser Maser: +5% / Laser Kill
ECM Blocker: +10% for shutting down an ECM
Machine Gun Kill: +50% [Come on - you'd deserve it]
Captain Barbeque: +5% / Flamer Kill
The Surgeon: +5% / Kill with a critical hit
Kneecapper: +5% / Leg shot off
Arm Wrestler: +5% / Arm Shot off
S.k.e.e.t Shooting: +25% / for killing an enemy in the air

THEN we add penalties like:

Lead Sprayer: -5% for going out of ammo
Out of Gas: -25% Engine Destroyed
Pocket Bomb: -10% killed by ammo explosion
Limping Home: -5% for destroyed leg
etc...

I was actually thinking of either a blind vote - you can click on a players name somehow whilst spectating or Officers of certain rank in a Guild can post forum medals.

Your achievement idea is good too.

[Terror Teddy]

http://mwomercs.com/...-match-rewards/

Poll in suggestions in regards to an achievement system that would include repair and destruction penalties but also reward things like:
-Headshots
-Capping
-Shooting off legs
-Getting the most kills
etc...

[DirePhoenix]

I feel like the lack of R&R makes this game less of a setting where I'm playing the role of a MechWarrior and instead just playing an arcade shoot'em'up Arena game. At least with R&R, people had reasons to not load up on all the most expensive gear they could cram into their machines just because there was space.

If you wanted to risk souping up your ride with EndoSteel, XL, and all the other expensive toys you could jam in there, then it should come at the cost of having to replace it if you weren't good enough to keep it intact throughout the battle.