124 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Clan Omnimechs should be able to use ECM on any of their 'Mechs, maybe to protect themselves from their own LRM's and giant streak packs.

[StalaggtIKE]

Volthorne, on 12 April 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

A good deal of Clan 'Mechs have ECM, so yeah....

At our current progression, the obvious solution is to have clan ECM cut damage from lasers and ballistics by 50%. Also, clan ECM will not only block lock-on from LRM, but if you're foolish enough to dumb fire them, it will reverse the missile back at you.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 12 April 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[MasterErrant]

um in the real world ther are basically two kinds of ECM (powerd ECM that is) deceptive and jamming.
deception systems hide the target and jamming systems block information gathering and targeting. the real difference it that jamming is loud it make a lot of sensor noise. in other words everyone know where you are and two enemies can triangulate you location but you are safe from missiles useing those kinds of targeting systems till the enemy ic close enough to burn through the noise.. while deception cony your sensors into thinking there is no enemy or that the eney is somewhere he isn't.

this is what the two Gaurdian modes are...just poorly implemented.

The subject is far far more complex than this in TRW but this is close enough for a game.

[DocBach]

um in the real world we don't have giant walking robots -- a realistic portrayal of ECM in a robot simulator video game skews the balance from the system the game is based on. MechWarrior isn't based on real life mechanics and physics, its based on Battletech mechanics and physics. Taking parts from reality and implementing them unbalances the system Mechwarrior is based in.

[Asmudius Heng]

Just bumping because I agree with this post as do SO MANY OTHERS.

I wish PGI would indicate if these sorts of things were even being considered.

[DocBach]

A couple of us asked if other information warfare pieces would be increased in function, but the general expectation is we'll be told information warfare is "working as intended."

[MasterErrant]

DocBach, on 12 April 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

um in the real world we don't have giant walking robots -- a realistic portrayal of ECM in a robot simulator video game skews the balance from the system the game is based on. MechWarrior isn't based on real life mechanics and physics, its based on Battletech mechanics and physics. Taking parts from reality and implementing them unbalances the system Mechwarrior is based in.

in the real world we are about twenty years from paower assisted combat armour and about forty from Mechs/battlesuts...should the military decide to go that way....it's already in R&D

The existence of mechs in the RW is moot. ECM is ECM. many of the tecch items as deployed in the TT as abstractions will not work in an RTS. things that can be broken down to a simple Die roll modifier have to have an active dymanic in this game...I'm all for keeping as close to cannon as possible but this is one of the things that doesn't work that way. as are streaks. (All that streaks do in tt is save ammo. You get consistant damage as a side effect, but two SSRMs do about the same damage as one SRM6 for more heat.

And how would a little realism be unbalamced.

Mode one
hides target info and location (from non visual sensors) untill a solid visual lock is held for X seconds. then halves decay if los is lost.
Mode two doubles/halves lock/decay on freindlies triples on the equipped mech BAP halves this.

that conforms fairly well to Cannon and works better than it does now. (tewak to suit the pace obviously.

Tag halves and Narc eliminates it for it's duration on one mech (Halves on ECM equipped mech.

[DocBach]

Our power armor isn't the same as Battletech power armor - Battletech physics are completely made up, none of the weapons or computers or technology make any sense. The tech items are very easily translated into real time, especially using the advanced rulesets. Streaks for instance, are guided by the Tegra 7 system which is a guidance system; if a Streak missile system gains a lock, all of the missiles hit due to their guidance.

Speaking of dice modifiers - ECM's third mode from the Tactical Operations rulebook gives weapons a +1 modifier to fire; would you say that is better represented in real time as a longer lock on time, or a complete lockout of radar?

Your suggestion is pretty much what I suggested - in Mode 1, which we'll call "Disrupt" already hides target info and location from non-visual sensors. In fact, all 'Mechs are hidden when out of line of sight on sensors. Beagle Active Probe is suppose to be the active radar that lets 'Mechs get around that gap in detection, ECM is the counter that hides 'Mechs from the extended abilities of the BAP. In mode 1, ECM protects 'Mechs by shrouding their information like damage and chassis type, but if you can see it, you should be able to target it to shoot at it.

Mode 2 would be the proposed Ghost Target Mode - the way the canon explains it is its bombarding sensors with signal noise and floods it with false signatures. The boardgame effect is +1 modifier to fire; like I previously said, that could be represented two ways; one, the +1 to fire could be interpreted as a longer lock on time. The second mode could also have additional effects such as enemies detect phantom targets on radar that they can target that don't exist, to confuse them. Maybe even create static on their sensor's hud screen the closer you are to the jamming signal. Like you suggest, Beagle is the counter to this mode.

Think of IW as a buff/debuff system;

Narc / Artemis - buffs missiles
Beagle - buffs radar
ECM - counters buffs, debuffs sensors (BUT DOES NOT COUNTER THEM LIKE IT DOES NOW!)

No basic systems like sensors should be hard countered by any equipment. Inconvenienced, put at a disadvantage? Sure. But the system we have now where we pretty much have PPC, ECM, LRMs a la paper scissors rocks is sort of a shallow experience that could be made a lot better by making it so everything is viable in its own right rather than linear counters.

Edited by DocBach, 15 April 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[DocBach]

Well, they responded to my Ask the Devs 56 asking about upgrading Beagle and Narc and they said "yes, its under review."

Unfortunately, usually when they review stuff, they come to the conclusion that it "works as intended!"

[Volthorne]

DocBach, on 21 April 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Well, they responded to my Ask the Devs 56 asking about upgrading Beagle and Narc and they said "yes, its under review."

Unfortunately, usually when they review stuff, they come to the conclusion that it "works as intended!"

ATD 56? You must share your knowledge of the future with me! Do LRMs ever stop being absolute garbage and are poptards nerfed to be reasonably hard to use?

[DocBach]

The real hot item is the dev's decision to include Powerzords to the game, right now Megazord is considered to be way op, especially when coordinated teams come together to form one.

[Circles End]

I fully endorse the OP's suggestions.

[Chamelion665]

I see the ECM/BAP problems as a sympton not the cause. Theres 2 parts currently to electronic warfare, weapon jamming(target locks for ECM) and sensor targeting. I'll skip the first part for now. Sensor targeting is currently pretty binary. Basically in most situations if I can target you, you can target me(assuming no ECM). A non ECM scout can't shadow an enemy force and target for friendlies because most of the time that atlas can see and target the scout. I would like to see a change to sensors to make non ecm scouts more viable. Something such as I posted here

http://mwomercs.com/...30#entry2262830

[KuruptU4Fun]

I don't remember since I haevn't used either ECM or BAP in months. But does BAP assist in non-LOS missile targeting? If not should a mech scouting (using TAG) and a BAP mounted mech give everyone (teammates) a lockon to the TAG targeted mech as long as it's in BAP range? So essentially BAP + TAG = ARTEMIS to every mech? BAP+TAG+ARTEMIS= I SHOULD FIND COVER NOW!!!

[DocBach]

BAP's affect on missiles is it lowers the lock on time, a feature it didn't have in the source material. However, since ECM totally nullifies not only the lower lock on time, but missile locks period, its kind of a moot bonus.

[StalaggtIKE]

DocBach, on 23 April 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

BAP's affect on missiles is it lowers the lock on time, a feature it didn't have in the source material. However, since ECM totally nullifies not only the lower lock on time, but missile locks period, its kind of a moot bonus.

I thought BAP did this, however it does not. Artemis is what lowers missile lock on time. And yes ECM negates that bonus as well.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 23 April 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[DocBach]

WTF does Beagle do, then? Seriously, who thought that the 1.5 tons of Beagle should do so little while allowing the 1.5 tons of Guardian ECM to do so much??

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

http://mwomercs.com/...0089-breakdown/

BAP does not decrease lock-on time. TAG, NARC and Artemis do.

BAP increases detection range. With BAP and Advanced Sensor Range module, I can detect mechs that are not covered by ECM at 1200m (normal is 800m).

The primary bonus BAP and Advanced Sensor Range gives against mechs covered by ECM is that they can be detected at (I think) 250m, rather than the normal 200m. ECM does not prevent Target Lock for LRMs (or Streaks) outside of 180m, but it does delay it. When the shooter has Artemis and/or TAG, I don't know if the time required for lock is delayed to twice normal (I don't think so), or twice the decreased amount.

While it doesn't happen often, I enjoy launching LRMs at ECM mechs from my (fully upgraded ... TAG, BAP, Artemis, Adv Sens Range, Target Info Gathering, etc.) Founder's Catapult ... it's almost as satisfying as legging a RVN-3L in my Founder's Jenner.

That said, ECM is still overpowered for a 1.5 ton, 2 slot piece of equipment.

[KuruptU4Fun]

DocBach, on 23 April 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

WTF does Beagle do, then? Seriously, who thought that the 1.5 tons of Beagle should do so little while allowing the 1.5 tons of Guardian ECM to do so much??

The only thing BAP does then is provide target information faster then and at farther ranges, just as it does in TT.

Sarna.net...

"The Beagle Active Probe (BAP) is a suite of enhancement technology that, when attached to general electronic sensors, enables the equipped unit to detect and classify other battlefield units -with the exception of conventional infantry- whether they are camouflaged or even shut down."

So given that info BAP should identify targets out of LOS within 360 degrees and farther out than normal sensors would. With BAP only providing target info I'm ok with that. When used in conjunction with TAG, any team mech should be able to target a BAP selected mech with LRM's or SRM's. Any ARTEMIS missiles should have a high buff to lock-on time and to hit percentage with BAP and non-los targeting anyways. Add TAG to that mix and the hit percentage per missile should be about 75% IMO.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 23 April 2013 - 03:11 PM.

[DocBach]

Beagle does way more than what Sarna says, Sarna is a wiki where information is condensed or left out because its a... wiki.