124 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Would love to see certain modules stack specifically with Beagle Active Probe and other information warfare items -- I'd like to see modules that increase the ability of anything in the game, ie modules that expand ECM bubbles, negate PPC minimum range, increase certain weapon damage against armor, ect.

More variety, yet being able to specialize in certain roles would be a good thing for game content.

[General Taskeen]

Yet more good idea's that won't see the light of day. Or I am being too pessimistic at this point?

I'll outline/reiterate my ideas, and combine with DocBach's

ECM Balance:

1. Remove missile-lock out mechanic
2. Keep passive buff for longer missile lock on time for user or team mates under its affect
3. Increase Passive Long Missile Lock for User only if Active/Passive radar introduced, where going Passive increases the lock on time.
3. Add Additional Ghost Target mode for additional feature of "IW"
4. ECM blocks Mech Information Only , along with all effects: Blocks Artemis Accuracy Bonus, Cancels NARC, Blocks Mech Information Sharing with C3 or C3i if introduced (not the target itself)

BAP Additional Balance

1. Move "low signal" to BAP only, notifying BAP that ECM is nearby/within range
2. BAP gets natural buff with missile-lock out removed. With extended range, naturally someone with BAP will be able to achieve radar/lock of target quicker.
3. When ECM is within range of BAP, the ECM's Ghost Targets they put out are now removed

Other:

TAG:

1. Never blocked by ECM

NARC

1. Make the NARC achieve its true potential/power for 3 tons. A Beacon allows an SRM/LRM to auto-seek the target, as featured from TT and other Mech Titles. LRMs should auto-seek only when dumb-fired. SRM will only seek if target is locked.
2. Since NARC is meant to be a powerful autoseek beacon for SRM/LRM, ECM is the natural counter to shut off the beacon's auto-seek
3. NARC Missile lasts between 30 or 60 seconds, if ECM moves away before that time is up, the beacon is still active.
4. PPC shuts off beacon permanently, new NARC missile must be re-fired

Active/Passive Radar (if when introduced)

1. Active Radar see's targets in a 360 arc around the user. Only detects other enemies also using Active Radar
2. LOS required for User to see Mech Information
3. If C3, C3 Master, C3i equipped Mech Information is Shared if other Mechs are using C3 and can now see Mech Information Sharing without LOS, and share targets over an extended range with the network.
4. If ECM is in range of C3 Master, entire mech sharing information network shut down. If one C3 Slave user is shut down, the network still remains if the Master is still up.
6. Passive Radar reduces Mech detection to 300m or less. Any lock on missile system dumb-fires and will not track or seek targets. Passive + ECM use increases missile lock-on time bonus, and reduces radar detection to 0m. Any Mech that has LOS of something in Passive or Passive+ECM, can still achieve lock eventually.


Fully operational and balanced Information Warfare.

Edited by General Taskeen, 09 April 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

hammerreborn, on 09 April 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Don't need changes to ECM.

I am curious, how do you suggest they implement Angel ECM, null signature, stealth armor and clan ECM? Or do you feel those future techs should simply not be added at all?

Edit: Our current ECM system is either short sighted or neglectful.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 09 April 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[DocBach]

The above listed systems all have disadvantages for using as well, be it expanded critical slot requirements or heat generated for use. Current ECM has no drawbacks at all, beyond the requirement of selecting a specific chassis variant (which in general have better hardpoints and module slots than the other variants of their type).

[StalaggtIKE]

DocBach, on 09 April 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

The above listed systems all have disadvantages for using as well, be it expanded critical slot requirements or heat generated for use. Current ECM has no drawbacks at all, beyond the requirement of selecting a specific chassis variant (which in general have better hardpoints and module slots than the other variants of their type).

Preaching to the choir. If the devs wise-up and add disadvantages to the future tech, they ultimately become inferior to ECM which has all of their abilities combined plus the added bonus of a cloud that stretches out to allies.

[hammerreborn]

StalaggtIKE, on 09 April 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

I am curious, how do you suggest they implement Angel ECM, null signature, stealth armor and clan ECM? Or do you feel those future techs should simply not be added at all?

Edit: Our current ECM system is either short sighted or neglectful.

They probably won't be implemted, and seeing most of those are what, 6 years in the future, not sure what it matters. Hell, we might not even see MASC in this game because of netcode limitations.


The devs really just need to give us an updated Pillar design. ECM isn't the only name in the game, and as I've said repeatedly BAP needs to be heavily buffed, NARC I think is a lost cause but I could be surprised, and some of those spoofer/proximity consumables need to be implemented.

We have almost nothing of the information warfare things they suggested initially, and the one I'm upset about the most is that they haven't implemented the multi-targetting yet (where you can target 4 enemies at once). Engine limits make it impossible for scouts to be effective scouts.

Scouting needs to be enhanced and rewarded. To much focus is on the brawler side of things, which makes ECM so prominent and as you guys put it "game changing". Sadly, while one would believe that 12v12 would see a rise in all roles, it's going to be 12 heavies/assaults vs 12 heavies assaults, and a scout lance of 4 lights are going to be incinerated and mocked by enemy and team alike.

More scouts = less effect of ECM, better information warfare, and a funner game.

Edited by hammerreborn, 09 April 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[Urdnot Mau]

i would love to see these changes. Bring back the scout role !

[DocBach]

I love the idea of a multi-targeting module, but what good would a multi-targeting module be, if ECM still blocks your ability to target anyways?

[hammerreborn]

DocBach, on 09 April 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

I love the idea of a multi-targeting module, but what good would a multi-targeting module be, if ECM still blocks your ability to target anyways?

Only at max range and only at a team that is all hiding in a single spot. Too bad airstrikes won't disperse people from it because it's crap.

But in brawler range you can get 4 mechs loadouts, and you'd be able to find and exterminate the weakest easily.

How many matches have you seen go down where one team walks around in skeletons after a brawl, and if only one or two more shots went to certain mechs the entire game would have swung the other way. Multi-target allows this.

[DocBach]

Multi-targeting would also allow support 'Mechs to pick and choose which target they want to put indirect fires on. In conjunction with the proposed changes to Beagle Active Probe a scout 'Mech could theoretically remain undetected by the enemy while providing targeting information to their team.

However, with ECM in its current form, there is no way for a scout to do this without exposing themselves completely to where they can't maintain effective locks on target.

[hammerreborn]

DocBach, on 09 April 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

However, with ECM in its current form, there is no way for a scout to do this without exposing themselves completely to where they can't maintain effective locks on target.

They should have to. I don't want ninja skills or see through walls vision. If I'm scouting, the enemy team should be able to see me and shoot at me.

Scouting should be hard, but rewarding. It's only difficult right now.

Edited by hammerreborn, 09 April 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[DocBach]

Being in Indian country in a 'Mech with low armor and few guns, being undetected is a necessity. Recon is generally suppose to try and remain undetected while gathering intelligence. A scout 'Mech could use Beagle to locate targets close to them (remember, the range is 120 meters which is pretty limited, and affected by ECM), so its still very close to the enemy, but without completely exposing themselves to fire. To get that close to the enemy undetected would also take some amount of skill, especially if the scout is using ECM themselves - ECM enemies would realize they are either being jammed or countered.

[Palador]

I like these ideas, I would also like to add that the game should include the aerial drop of mines and BAP should be able to detect mines.

Palador

[hammerreborn]

DocBach, on 09 April 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Being in Indian country in a 'Mech with low armor and few guns, being undetected is a necessity. Recon is generally suppose to try and remain undetected while gathering intelligence. A scout 'Mech could use Beagle to locate targets close to them (remember, the range is 120 meters which is pretty limited, and affected by ECM), so its still very close to the enemy, but without completely exposing themselves to fire. To get that close to the enemy undetected would also take some amount of skill, especially if the scout is using ECM themselves - ECM enemies would realize they are either being jammed or countered.

Ya, and you do that but positioning yourself smartly and being cunning, things that are difficult to do. But I shouldn't be able to lock on an entire team without them being able to ******* into little bits (aside from obvious weapon range limitations).

I run a Jenner, everyday I'm amazed that people just have no situational awareness whatsoever. I can stand behind a highlander for a minute before someone retreating from LRMs notices me. But as soon as I shine that TAG, all bets should be off.

I hide in the same two spots every match in both versions of forest colony. In plain sight of the enemy team. Not once has anyone ever seen me, though one time a guy looked straight at me in his heavy metal but didn't fire.

Edited by hammerreborn, 09 April 2013 - 11:17 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Radar should not be immune to obstacles or terrain, even if it is BAP.

Narc should not last forever.

[MustrumRidcully]

DocBach, on 08 April 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

More or less the Narc needs to be countered by ECM for it to stay in balance and not become OP in its own right. The ability to be tracked regardless of LOS puts you at a whole lot of risk. The proposed changes are more for Narc to become an information tool rather than enhanced missile guidance like it currently is.

The biggest problem I see with Information Warfare is its all based upon what ECM can hide, rather than what other things can find. There is no information gathering beyond standard sensors, just information denial.

I have to agree. I was kinda expecting more arrows in the quiver of information warfare than ECM...

What I would envision is stuff like this:

1) Enhanced Vision Modes
Something that gives you a higher vision range with Night and Thermal VIsion as a module could be interesting. But not just that, also that "Magnetometric vision" or what it's called could e acool feature - say, being able to "see" mechs through cover. Not useful for regular targeting and shooting, but awesome for information gathering.

2) Unmanned Aerial Vehicle
An UAV that you can send and steer across the map to scout for you. Makes a great module.

3) Aerial/Satellite Surveillance
Send a plane or get a satellite picture from the area, allowing you to locate enemy mechs briefly anywhere on the map (except the few tunnels.)

4) ECM Enhacement Modules
Instead of giving ECM all the functions it has now, it could be "upgradeable" with certain modules - only an expertly trained ECM user might have access to some of the more powerful features.

The default ECM might just do this:
- Hide IFF and RADAR detection
- Increase lock time by 100 % and give missiles a 50 % to miss if they enter the ECM bubble.
- Can be switched to counter other ECMs

Additional modules might:
- Raise the missile miss chance to 80 %
- Hide friendly and enemy IFF
- ECM can be switched to counter ECM but retain a 50 % missile lock time increase and a 30 % missile confusion chance.

5) Beagle Active Probe
This could also be enhanced by additional features
- BAP detects ECM fields (but doesn't penetrate them, it just shows you a circle where an ECM field was detected.
- BAP increase sensor range and reduces missile lock time by 25 %.
- BAP reduces the time to gather mech information by 50 %.
- BAP detects powered down mechs within range.

Additional Modules might:
- Give Beagle Active Probe the ability to still get IFF through the ECM field. (but no target information)
- BAP detects active mechs trough cover within close range.

6) Target Sharing Modules
The current system is extremely gratious here. I think the ability to get other missile users a lockable target should not be able by default (and missiles would be balanced assuming that indirect fire is not a given).
Instead, a target sharing module enables you to share one selected target.
The advanced version shares targets with every target you see.


7) TAG & Narc
Enable you to share targets even without the target sharing modules, but if you have those modules, th e effect is even better.
TAG & Narc also feature one extra benefit: The missile will try to go for the spot you're aiming at (basically the random flight pattern will make 50 % of the missiles hit within 1m (normal) or 0.5m (ARTEMIS) of the target location.

8) FIre & Forget
Missiles gain a lock, are then fired, and then the missiles tracks the target independently of the player. If it used a TAG or NARC to get the lock, it will still follow that TAG or NARC, however. Once a missile has been fired, the lock is lost and must be regained. (ThHis keeps lock times relevant at all times).

9) Indirect Fire
Indirect Fire works has a general 75 % chance to miss the target. It's just very unreliable. But with modules and with TAG/NARC, the chance can increase. If you have the ability to share targets at all, you have this 75 % miss chance, and each additional module or piece of gear adding to the chance lowers the miss chance by another 25 %. ECM increases the miss chance instead by the miss chance it adds to all missiles (by default, 50 %).

10) C3
C3 also grants basic target sharing ability, and if one member in the C3 network has detailed target information or even just an IFF or radar ping, every C3 member has it. This makes information gathering gear particularly valuable in a network.

11) Bonus Modules
Certain gear grants the player bonus modules for certain purposes. For example:
- ECM and BAP grant you each an additional slot for Information Warfare related modules (for example ECM or BAP boosting modules, but also the existing Target Decay and Information Gathering modules)
- Command Console grants you additional slots for Artillery, Air Strikes and Satellite Surveillance
- C3 Master grants you two additional modules, and C3 Slave or C3i grants you one additional module.

[jay35]

I'm looking forward to radar Active/Passive modes being implemented so any mech can toggle off their fire control radar, going into passive mode, which has much reduced detection range but provides the benefit of being much less detectable as well, allowing any mech to have a limited ability to sneak when needed, at the expensive of the ability to lock missiles, get target data on enemy mechs outside of ~50m, etc, while in that passive mode.

[Kristov Kerensky]

I like some of the proposals you have here Doc, but I don't actually have a problem with ECM and how it works in MWO, as all it really does is keep 1 weapon system, SSRMs, from working and denies information about the enemy if you are far enough away from it, which is how ECM works in the real world. The TT version of ECM was always a sticking point in our game, a group of people with more then a little real world education in how such things work..yeah..we used almost the same version of ECM as MWO does, house rule, and that was using the pre-Clan Invasion original BTech materials, not the revised CBT stuff that's actually rewritten how ECM works in TT to make it even LESS like it's real world basis.

And really, right now, we don't even have all the tools and toys in the game yet, so we can't actually make any judgements on how well things are or are not working. I know people say it repeatedly and people deny it, but this IS a beta, the game isn't even halfway complete on the core features, so we are trying to judge a painting based on seeing only the rough outline sketched onto the canvas and seeing the colors of paint the artist has set up.

NARC, I definately like your thoughts on that, should be how it works as that's straight from TT, and it would give people an actual REASON to use it, which right now..NO ONE with any knowledge of how the game works bothers with it.

BAP..I like your thoughts on it, they should add some more functionality to it besides 'it increases your sensor range by 25%, which stacks with the Sensor/Adv Sensor Module'..it should do more then that, like give more information..ie - reduce the time required to get detailed information on a target, give detailed information on where weapons are, but I don't like the 'give where ammo is stored' information, that's not really something it should be able to determine in my opinion..but I LIKE the idea none the less

[Attalward]

this is a wonderfull suggestion. I would love to see this changes implemented

[StalaggtIKE]

hammerreborn, on 09 April 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

They probably won't be implemted, and seeing most of those are what, 6 years in the future, not sure what it matters. Hell, we might not even see MASC in this game because of netcode limitations.

So you don't expect this game to last 5+ years? Sad thing is at this rate neither do I. ECM might have added excitement, but it is still short lived. Active/passive radar could have added timeless enjoyment, without the residual negativity ECM has brought with it.

Quote

The devs really just need to give us an updated Pillar design. ECM isn't the only name in the game, and as I've said repeatedly BAP needs to be heavily buffed, NARC I think is a lost cause but I could be surprised, and some of those spoofer/proximity consumables need to be implemented.

Well, it's kind of hard when the whole pillar is being supported by ECM. Or the fact that the current ECM imitates those future techs I listed up above. PGI must now "reach" into the future to find counters to counter the present day ECM. Funny how that works.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 09 April 2013 - 01:02 PM.