124 replies to this topic

[Brilig]

I have a sinking feeling that the next batch of consumables will be based around dealing with ECM, and utilized in information warfare.

[Joseph Mallan]

Artgathan, on 08 April 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

I like the buffs to the BAP and NARC, I don't like the changes to ECM - I voted no.

ECM is supposed to be the way it is - without ECM in it's current form there is no information warfare: there are only mechs within radar range and mechs outside radar range. We will be getting more equipment to deal with ECM - there's no need to say the system is broken when you've only seen a tiny part of the system (not the OP in particular, but just everyone who complains about ECM).

I have to disagree with you. ECM was originally implemented to be a counter to NARC and Artemis. Angel ECM only dumbed down SSMs it never blocked them completely. LRMs requiring LoS to be fired at a ECM equipped Mech is a good feature (fitting the intent of the equipment) So ECM as is, is much more powerful than it needed to be.

[DocBach]

Brilig, on 24 April 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

I have a sinking feeling that the next batch of consumables will be based around dealing with ECM, and utilized in information warfare.

Imagining sensor pods that give off exact location of enemies like a spotter, but can be jammed by ECM; ECM jamming pods which mess with enemy electronics; seismic sensors which give off an indicator that enemies are near the location but not an exact location, but is not affected by ECM; and other modules the like that are deployable. I'd hope the sensor pods require the use of Beagle on the 'Mech that employs them, in the Total Warfare ruleset Beagle could control sensor drop pods.

[Joseph Mallan]

DocBach, on 24 April 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

Imagining sensor pods that give off exact location of enemies like a spotter, but can be jammed by ECM; ECM jamming pods which mess with enemy electronics; seismic sensors which give off an indicator that enemies are near the location but not an exact location, but is not affected by ECM; and other modules the like that are deployable. I'd hope the sensor pods require the use of Beagle on the 'Mech that employs them, in the Total Warfare ruleset Beagle could control sensor drop pods.

Dude you are nasty! Glad you are on my side!

[SMDMadCow]

DocBach, on 23 April 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

Beagle does way more than what Sarna says, Sarna is a wiki where information is condensed or left out because its a... wiki.

I have yet to play a TT game where a BAP was nessecary or useful. All it does is detect shutdown mechs, thats it. Sarna is a better wiki than others, you can go to the page and see the citations of where the info comes from.

[MaddMaxx]

Anything that enhances the IW game play is a go for myself, with one small caveat. The OP is building a system that would take many many months for the Novice player to learn to use effectively and to its full extent. This is a F2P arena now and has very little wiggle room for that kind of depth and complexity. Sad but true.

It is my hope and desire that CW will allow the addition of more and better systems like the proposed ones as it will also provide an environment more conducive the the training of new "wannabe" proficient Mech Pilots versus the current rather nasty environment where if a Pilot doesn't do a 1K damage and kill 5 enemies, they get verbally chastised, by their supposed betters. Also sad but true.

So, I do not believe it is yet time to be hitting the panic button. There is much more to be done, that much is clear. The current ADD attitude of the "Forums", is just that. To many folks with to much "online" time on their hands. You know what they say about "idle hands"? Well the same is true for "over-active" keyboards.

P.S. I voted "other" and have explained why.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 24 April 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

In the original announcement of a new MW game (MW5) there was a drone that popped out of a mech ad flew at about (by my guess) 2km above the battlefield. maybe that will be a consumable that will help thwart ECM.

[DocBach]

SMDMadCow, on 24 April 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

I have yet to play a TT game where a BAP was nessecary or useful. All it does is detect shutdown mechs, thats it. Sarna is a better wiki than others, you can go to the page and see the citations of where the info comes from.

If we are going by the most basic, tournament style rules, yes, that's pretty much all Beagle does. In the same rules, all ECM does is blocks Beagle, Artemis, C3 and Narc.

You need to check out the Double Blind rules, Sensor Scanning rules, et al in Tactical Operations, then. Beagle Active Probe has a multitude of uses beyond the basic ruleset outlined in Battletech Master Rules, Total Warfare, ect, just like ECM. Beagle detects hidden units such as shutdown or purposefully camouflaged 'Mechs within its line of sight, and units outside of line of sight that are not shutdown.

The difference is, ECM not only kept all of its advanced rules, it got additional bonuses and features.

Edited by DocBach, 24 April 2013 - 09:49 AM.

[DocBach]

KuruptU4Fun, on 24 April 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

In the original announcement of a new MW game (MW5) there was a drone that popped out of a mech ad flew at about (by my guess) 2km above the battlefield. maybe that will be a consumable that will help thwart ECM.

I'd guess if they included a drone consumable it'd probably give you locations of enemies via the command map.

[SMDMadCow]

DocBach, on 24 April 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

You need to check out the Double Blind rules, Sensor Scanning rules, et al in Tactical Operations, then. Beagle Active Probe has a multitude of uses beyond the basic ruleset outlined in Battletech Master Rules, Total Warfare, ect, just like ECM. Beagle detects hidden units such as shutdown or purposefully camouflaged 'Mechs within its line of sight, and units outside of line of sight that are not shutdown.

The difference is, ECM not only kept all of its advanced rules, it got additional bonuses and features.

Right, my group generally dont use the optional rules that bog down gameplay more than is really useful to get some niche eauipment to do ots job. I do agree with your OP though.

[DocBach]

MaddMaxx, on 24 April 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Anything that enhances the IW game play is a go for myself, with one small caveat. The OP is building a system that would take many many months for the Novice player to learn to use effectively and to its full extent. This is a F2P arena now and has very little wiggle room for that kind of depth and complexity. Sad but true.

It is my hope and desire that CW will allow the addition of more and better systems like the proposed ones as it will also provide an environment more conducive the the training of new "wannabe" proficient Mech Pilots versus the current rather nasty environment where if a Pilot doesn't do a 1K damage and kill 5 enemies, they get verbally chastised, by their supposed betters. Also sad but true.

So, I do not believe it is yet time to be hitting the panic button. There is much more to be done, that much is clear. The current ADD attitude of the "Forums", is just that. To many folks with to much "online" time on their hands. You know what they say about "idle hands"? Well the same is true for "over-active" keyboards.

P.S. I voted "other" and have explained why.

I'd argue that easing the iron fist ECM has over information warfare, but increasing the others to where they are useful but not required would be much easier than dealing with ECM the way its currently implemented as a complete roadblock to certain systems. A slight debuff, sure. But something that requires weapons and equipment that not all 'Mechs are capable is just as bad for a free to play game in which not all players are members of well coordinated teams and have little option on what the team they drop with is carrying, or even an efficient means of communication with said team.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Can you post (or a link) to those rules so twe can see them, I know there are several people who don't have any Tech Manuals that we can use for comparison.

[General Taskeen]

DocBach, on 24 April 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

You need to check out the Double Blind rules, Sensor Scanning rules, et al in Tactical Operations, then. Beagle Active Probe has a multitude of uses beyond the basic ruleset outlined in Battletech Master Rules, Total Warfare, ect, just like ECM.

The difference is, ECM not only kept all of its advanced rules, it got additional bonuses and features.

And that's the thing too, I see the balance of equipment far better in TT with clear paper-rock-scissors of things that are bonuses to situations. For instance, ECM shuts off Artemis accuracy (bonus), but does not stop the missiles from locking on and hitting the Mech (the accuracy is just reduced). The "extra" feature most mech games simply add is to make lock on time longer, which is totally fine, that doesn't totally alter balance. To shut off weapons completely is bad design. It also shuts off NARC beacons, however, NARC's ability for SRM and LRM auto-seeking does not exist in the game (which I hope will be made available). You bring equipment for bonuses and/or countering powerful gear like NARC.

The bonuses for ECM should have only been increased missile lock time, ghost target, cancel artemis accuracy bonus, block narc beacon (if and only if NARC is made powerful how it is supposed to be), block C3 "info mech info sharing, not target" and that's it. And you bet I would equip ECM for those bonuses and strategize around them. Beagle itself should have been given a bonus for the "under enemy ecm signal" icon (and perhaps directional cues).

If they simply made equipment bonuses as 'soft' counters, it would be so much better. There would be no need to equip a piece of gear in the hopes of hard countering. It eases new player experience and adds more variety to experienced level play. Even Angel ECM doesn't block SSRM's completely, they still can be dumb-fired.

Edited by General Taskeen, 24 April 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[Chief 117]

This is how it should work, The system we have now is totally one sided

[DocBach]

An active probe can detect any hidden 'Mech if the concealed unit lies within the probe's range.
Pg 134, Total Warfare


ACTIVE PROBES
Active probes are primarily used to locate hidden units on
the battlefield—battle armor as well as ’Mechs and vehicles.
Active probes cannot detect hidden unarmored infantry.
Hidden Units (Expanded)
In standard-rules play, the player determines if any enemy
units lie within the detection radius of an active probe after
the unit has finished moving (see p. 129, TW). As an optional
rule, the effect radius can be active throughout the unit’s entire
movement. This allows a probe-equipped unit to detect
hidden units along its movement path, whereas the standard
rules can result in a probe passing a hidden unit without
detecting it.
Targeting
Another optional rule allows active probes to aid in targeting
enemy units within the probe’s range. If the target is within
the probe’s range and line of sight exists to the target, reduce
the total to-hit modifier for firing through and into woods/jungles
by 1 (that is, reduce the total woods/jungles modifier by 1,
regardless of the number of woods/jungle hexes involved.
Concealing Information
A unit with an active probe can also acquire information
about an enemy unit’s status if players are playing with concealed
record sheets (see Concealing Information, p. 219).
Minefields
A unit with an active probe can potentially reveal minefields
(see Weapon-Delivered Minefields, p. 210).
ECM Suites
A unit with an active probe will find it easier to overcome an
ECM’s ghost target ability (see Ghost Targets, p. 101).
- Pg 99, Tactical Operations


"Active-probe scanning provides the most detailed and
accurate information about enemy units. However, when
such sensors are unavailable, standard ’Mech or vehicle
sensors or a simple visual inspection can reveal a certain
amount of information."


"Any time a unit enters the range of any type of active probe
operated by an opponent, the player must reveal that unit’s
record sheet to the opponent. The player must leave the sheet
face up and available for the opponent to examine as long as
the unit remains within the probe’s effect radius.
Any unit mounting an ECM suite can potentially defeat an
active probe on a 2D6 dice roll against a Target Number of 8. If
the roll fails, the unit must reveal its information."
Pg 219, Tactical Operations

So Beagle can detect hidden units ie units that are shutdown, purposefully camouflaged, underwater, or generally out of line of sight within its radius, which is a 360 degree, 120 meter bubble around it. Sensor scanning provides basic target information like generic damage and weapons readouts -- an active probe can look at the enemies complete readout. An ECM can help block against it, but Beagle can still bleed through. For simplicity sake, I'd probably just keep ECM blocking Beagle. Another cool feature is it **** targeting computers in tracking units obscured by trees and other foliage.

Beagle is an active radar which locates hidden units, and a probe which gains additional information about the units, hence the name Beagle Active Probe.

Edited by DocBach, 24 April 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

From the "soft counter" side of things that are designed to let a new or unexperienced player try to deal with ECM I think those things are sufficient. But I agree that there should be a metagame underneath that that allows for those who are more experienced (and coordinated teamwise) to deal with that ECM wall more effectively than what we have now.

[DocBach]

I'd imagine the ECM meta game would be more aimed towards blocking other information warfare tools rather than complete block out of unrelated systems like missiles. A likely scenario is trying to sneak up on the enemy or their base using cover and concealment. If Beagle was expanded to do what is suppose to and allow for locating enemies beyond visual scanning, ECM would be useful in negating the Beagle so you could remain undetected.

Ie, the information warfare meta game shouldn't have any affect on the weapon meta game, and vice versa.

[KuruptU4Fun]

DocBach, on 24 April 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

I'd imagine the ECM meta game would be more aimed towards blocking other information warfare tools rather than complete block out of unrelated systems like missiles. A likely scenario is trying to sneak up on the enemy or their base using cover and concealment. If Beagle was expanded to do what is suppose to and allow for locating enemies beyond visual scanning, ECM would be useful in negating the Beagle so you could remain undetected. Ie, the information warfare meta game shouldn't have any affect on the weapon meta game, and vice versa.

Agreed, What I would think that one mech serving as a BAP "scout" for other teammates, that scout running BAP (and maybe TAG) and the others running missiles the combination of all involved would serve as almost a complete negation of any mech using ECM or any under it's umbrella.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 24 April 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[DocBach]

That would be dependent on the scout staying outside the ECM bubble - ECM still negates Beagle, as well as target sharing via TAG if the spotter is inside ECM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Wow almost a 100 votes to 10!