1386 replies to this topic

[Curccu]

DemonRaziel, on 10 April 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

You guys do realize this was sarcasm, right?

And as a side note, I really hope they don't plan to introduce the Devastating™ 6 MG Spider as a new Hero 'Mech.

Actually you should hope they do that, when no one buys that they might start thinking why is that.

[Yokaiko]

Karl Streiger, on 10 April 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

Can the Jenner fire a endless stream of bullets at zero heat?

Doesn't matter to fire an endless stream you need 100% uptime inside 90m, and its going to be spread all over, AND even at 1.2 DPS it would take something like 23 seconds to take out an atlas from behind.

[Kmieciu]

Since editing XML files on the client is forbidden, I did not do the following:

I did not increase the damage for machine guns to 0.08
I did not increase to ROF machine guns to 20
I did not increase the range from 90/200 to 180/540
It did not take me less than 30 seconds using notepad.

Then I did not try out those settings in offline Testing Grounds:

It did not take 10 seconds to kill a stock Commando @ 90 meters using 4 machine guns (6.75 seconds using 4 Small Lasers)
It did not take 23 seconds to kill a stock Commando @ 180 meters using 4 machine guns (20 seconds using 1 Medium Pulse Laser)

But If the Devs implemented those changes, Machineguns would become useful, yet not overpowered weapons.

PS. Spraying machine guns at 500 meters wound be immensely satisfying, albeit rather useless :-)

Edited by Kmieciu, 10 April 2013 - 07:46 AM.

[Pinselborste]

Kmieciu, on 10 April 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Since editing XML files on the client is forbidden, I did not do the following:

I did not increase the damage for machine guns to 0.08
I did not increase to ROF machine guns to 20
I did not increase the range from 90/200 to 180/540
It did not take me less than 30 seconds using notepad.

Then I did not try out those settings in offline Testing Grounds:

It did not take 10 seconds to kill a stock Commando @ 90 meters using 4 machine guns (6.75 seconds using 4 Small Lasers)
It did not take 23 seconds to kill a stock Commando @ 180 meters using 4 machine guns (20 seconds using 1 Medium Pulse Laser)

But If the Devs implemented those changes, Machineguns would become useful, yet not overpowered weapons.

PS. Spraying machine guns at 500 meters wound be immensely satisfying, albeit rather useless :-)

yeah, thats 1.6 dps, 60% more than the SL has but it still takes longer to kill something with them,

reducing the spread by some % and it would be totally fine.

[Runenstahl]

The Devs decided to make MG's a niche weapon. Instead of doing normal damage it's supposed to destroy the enemies components. And it works quite well at that.

I'm still undecided about it's usefulness however... MG's DID save my butt a few times by taking out weapons in damaged (but not destroyed) zones. But since engine/gyro/activator hits are missing in the game, the usefulness of critical hits IS somewhat limited.

Someone supposed testing an MG-buff for a few weeks. I think that would be a good idea. Or implement critical hits to non-weapon components... if MG's could quickly kill an engines once the armor is gone they would be fine as they are.

[Nihtgenga]

Taking the immortal words of Bryan ("Now imagine the devastating effect that a 6 MG spider could do to the back of an Atlas!") the other way round: A Piranha mech is the perfect nightmare in this respect, boating horrific 12 MGs. As things are right now, that mech will do a theoretical maximum of 0.4x12=4.8 DPS, spread over a virtual Atlas rear torso, which has at least 20 points of armour, before the double-strength internal structures are even touched.

In a real confrontation, that damn thing would have to constantly outmaneuver the Atlas for several minutes in a range of only a chickenshit farther than point-blank, even with an experienced pilot (= sufficient hit ratio despite spread, movement etc.) chewing away several tons of ammo per MG (which it doesn't even have, so not one Piranha, a whole fishtank would be needed probably), until it cores an Atlas - hoping that no one else interferes or the match is won by the rest of the team meanwhile. Whew, what a menace!

The only "devastating" effect I can imagine is sore muscles from laughing of that Atlas' pilot, but not on the mech.

[Nihtgenga]

Runenstahl, on 10 April 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

The Devs decided to make MG's a niche weapon. Instead of doing normal damage it's supposed to destroy the enemies components. And it works quite well at that.

What kind of reasonable "niche" should that be? If I use a different weapon doing damage instead of crits, I can kill instead of only cripple the enemy to get him doing less damage. A dead enemy can shoot not only LESS, but NONE of his weapons, even if they are intact...

[Pinselborste]

Runenstahl, on 10 April 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

The Devs decided to make MG's a niche weapon. Instead of doing normal damage it's supposed to destroy the enemies components. And it works quite well at that.

I'm still undecided about it's usefulness however... MG's DID save my butt a few times by taking out weapons in damaged (but not destroyed) zones. But since engine/gyro/activator hits are missing in the game, the usefulness of critical hits IS somewhat limited.

Someone supposed testing an MG-buff for a few weeks. I think that would be a good idea. Or implement critical hits to non-weapon components... if MG's could quickly kill an engines once the armor is gone they would be fine as they are.

with a usefull weapon can chop of the sidetorso instead of critting the weapons in it and that way also destroy the whole arm attached to it too.

[Esplodin]

stjobe, on 10 April 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

"Now imagine the devastating effect that a 6 MG spider could do to the back of an Atlas!"

I too read that dev quote as a teaser for the next Hero Light Mech, the 6MG spider. I have to say I'll die a bit inside if that's correct.

Edited by Esplodin, 10 April 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[Critical Fumble]

Hypothetical question here: how much MG and ammo tonnage would it take to be "devistating"? The SRM Cat got a lot of flack because of 90 dmg alphas (which were also effected by the AOE bug?), but being more reasonable, maybe 40-60 total DPS in ideal circumstances so that you could drop someone in a reasonable time in a real combat situation.

You'd likely need 8-12 tons of ammo to make sure you could kill everyone, and currently you'd need 100 MGs at a minimum, but more would be better. Even if they bring them up to 2 DPS, you'd need more MGs for that idea than there are hardpoints on any mech yet. Add in ammo strain if they bring the DPS higher through firerate.

Seriously, I'm curious if anyone else has imput on a MG-laden deathboat.

[Deathlike]

I thought some people wanted the Piranha to be added.

[Terror Teddy]

Esplodin, on 10 April 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

I too read that dev quote as a teaser for the next Hero Light Mech, the 6MG spider. I have to say I'll die a bit inside if that's correct.

Yea, they take the regular ballistic spider and remove the energy point in the chest and add 2 ballistic points instead...

I mean really, it WOULD be a penalty to give it more ballistic points in order to gain a cash bonus.

[Rippthrough]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 April 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

So....... just put this together in response to the whole 6 MG spider stuff.....


48 seconds unabated fire against a stationary mechs back. YUP... a buff would indeed be OP.

It gets worse, with the effect of lag and the ballistics delay, in a live game the fire rate is slower than it should be (much like AC/2's), so it'd be around a full minute...

[Deathlike]

Terror Teddy, on 10 April 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Yea, they take the regular ballistic spider and remove the energy point in the chest and add 2 ballistic points instead...

I mean really, it WOULD be a penalty to give it more ballistic points in order to gain a cash bonus.

This could easily be the worst hero mech sold ever.

Edited by Deathlike, 10 April 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[Dremster]

ICEFANG13, on 10 April 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

Well that makes sense, now they are amazing weapons!

Not defending machine guns with "YOU HAVE BAD AIM LOLZ" just assisting those doing testing. They most definitely need a buff, the crit mechanic is like a bad joke. It's only good IF someone else has stripped a mech for you. And then only IF the enemy lights died laughing at your machine guns, and didn't put your 6 MG Spider of DOOOOM! in the dirt. And even worse if there aren't any juicy gauss rifles or ammunition to crit your still just making tickle sparks on their torso.

[Orzorn]

I think the simplest solution at this point is to raise their damage to 0.16 or so, maybe even 0.18. The spread of the machine gun means that the actual damage you deal is quite lower.

Either that, or remove the spread so that they do not have to balance around it and can raise the machine gun's damage to something like 1.2 or maybe more (to account for the fact you must constantly fire it).

Lets do some math. A small laser does 3 damage in .75 seconds, and then has a cool down of 2.25 seconds. To match this, a machine gun would need to do 0.4 damage per round, but that would make their DPS 4, which is pretty wacky and not feasible. For this reason, its better that we leave users to deal with the fact that machine guns must be continuously fired, but the extra critical hit bonuses are their consolation prize for it. Honestly, I'm not sure at this point that raising MG damage should dictate lowering the multiplier. If you manage to get to someone's juicy innards with what is technically inferior damage (Even if, on paper, its better damage), as well as having to deal with losing damage if you torso twist, then you deserve to be able to absolutely shred the internal equipment.

[Terror Teddy]

Runenstahl, on 10 April 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

The Devs decided to make MG's a niche weapon. Instead of doing normal damage it's supposed to destroy the enemies components. And it works quite well at that.

And in effect neutered light vs light mech combat since light mechs dependant on a viable light ballistic weapon now has no effective defenses against other lights.

A commando at 25 tonnes have more choices in firepower than a spider - not to mention actual firepower.

[Homeless Bill]

I love the Spider 5K. I'm all about jumpjets, speed, and trolling. But I've never broken 200 damage in the thing. I'm not even really very effective at destroying components. My suggestion:

Make critical hits from machine guns also apply that damage to the internal structure.

I don't ever care about disabling a weapon seconds before I blow off that part of a 'mech. If you made it better at killing the actual internal structure, they would be an effective weapon for how you intend them to be used.

[Tennex]

Reasons to buff the MG.

1. Light mechs need something for the ballistic slot.
2. MGs currently do 1/3 the damage of light lasers (which are already underutilized and rarely used effectively)
3. It currently takes 40s for a 6 MG jagermech to core an atlas from the back. It takes 12s for a 6 sl stalker.
4. MGs have horrendous range.
5. MG damage is spread
6. Critical component only accounts for 1/3 of a mech's health and is a bad balancing mechanic.
7. By the time a MG begins to crit a component. a light laser already killed the enemy mech. DESTORYING ALL OF ITS COMPONENTS.
8. Speaking from a realism point, the MG weighs 1.5 tons. And is not the same machine gun we use today. This much heavier machine gun is used by mechs against mechs.
9. MG predated infantry and vehicles in Battletech
10. They deal 2 damage per turn vs. MECHS in TT. That's the same as an AC2, with (a lot) less range.


Reasons not to:

6 MG spiders.
3 second jenners?

Edited by Tennex, 10 April 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[Ansel]

Just some food for thought.

Armor was doubled.

MG damage is at 4 damage in 10 seconds, compaired to 2 over 10 seconds from TT stats. 0% increase in damage.

AC-2 damage is at 40 damage in 10 seconds, compaired to 2 over 10 seconds from TT stats. 1000% increase in damage.

Edited by Ansel, 10 April 2013 - 11:16 AM.