1386 replies to this topic

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Testing grounds, firing from 50m, targeting mech's head. Both me and target are obviously stationary.

2 small lasers. Head destroyed in 12 seconds:


6 machine guns (so that would be like 2 MGs with their damage buffed 3 times). Head destroyed in 22 seconds. Notice that damage is also spread to CT:

It means basically that even if MG damage were TRIPPLED, MGs would still be far less effective than SLs (roughly half of the SL DPS, due to the weapon spread of MG versus pinpoint accuracy of laser) even in perfect "laboratory" conditions. In real game difference would be even bigger.

Edited by Krzysztof z Bagien, 10 April 2013 - 05:58 AM.

[stjobe]

Kmieciu, on 10 April 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

People overlook the fact that a fully upgraded Jenner-F with 6 small lasers has can fire for 95 seconds before overheating.

In 95 seconds a mech with 6 machineguns uses 6*10*95= 5700 bullets.

And in those 95 seconds the 6 SL Jenner will do 570 damage, while the 6 MG 'mech will do... 228. For reference, the max total armour value of an Atlas is 614.

[Wolfyop]

Karl Streiger, on 10 April 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

When you simple increase the damage of the machine gun...the moment will come when some people start to complain that they are OP - because some kids are running a Cicada with MachineGuns and Flammers or the JagerMech etc.

and it will mean that they are not useless like now.

[Pinselborste]

mgs would need their damage trippled, and the spread reduced. right now spread starts to hit multiple sections at 12 meter.

[Kmieciu]

stjobe, on 10 April 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

And in those 95 seconds the 6 SL Jenner will do 570 damage, while the 6 MG 'mech will do... 228. For reference, the max total armour value of an Atlas is 614.

A stock Atlas has 28 rear center armor + 62 internal hp = 90 hp total. That means that a 6SL Jenner has the potential to core 6 Atlases before overheating.

Karl Streiger, on 10 April 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

...the moment will come when some people start to complain that they are OP - because some kids are running a Cicada with MachineGuns and Flammers or the JagerMech etc.

Have you seen topics about 6SL Jenner being overpowered?

Edited by Kmieciu, 10 April 2013 - 06:11 AM.

[stjobe]

Kmieciu, on 10 April 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

A stock Atlas has 28 rear center armor + 62 internal hp = 90 hp total. That means that a 6SL Jenner has the potential to core 6 Atlases before overheating.

Yeah, but in the immortal words of Bryan: "Now imagine the devastating effect that a 6 MG spider could do to the back of an Atlas!"

Devastating, I tell you! MGs! Devastating! Never mind the 6 SL Jenner that already can do the same and more, IMAGINE THE DEVASTATING EFFECT THAT A 6 MG SPIDER COULD DO!

6. MG. SPIDER!

DEVASTATING!

DEVASTATING 6 MG SPIDERS!

FEAR THEM!

Edited by stjobe, 10 April 2013 - 06:14 AM.

[Pinselborste]

stjobe, on 10 April 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Yeah, but in the immortal words of Bryan: "Now imagine the devastating effect that a 6 MG spider could do to the back of an Atlas!"

Devastating, I tell you! MGs! Devastating! Never mind the 6 SL Jenner that already can do the same and more, IMAGINE THE DEVASTATING EFFECT THAT A 6 MG SPIDER COULD DO!

6. MG. SPIDER!

DEVASTATING!

DEVASTATING 6 MG SPIDERS!

FEAR THEM!

I have never seen any dev playing a mech with mgs, garth for example only used those cicada variants with energy hardpoints only.

would like to have an 8v8 where devs use mg Spiders and the other team SL spiders, would be great to see how fine they are

[MustrumRidcully]

skamage, on 10 April 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

Find it weird their argument is always that the MG would be OP because of its no heat generation. It's terrible now without the heat generation, but here is a novel idea....up the numbers on its dps and if it is OP then wait for it.....give it heat like every other weapon in the game.

I think there is also a way to limit the MG with its ammo needs, but if that doesn't work/is too complicated, I'd say adding heat to the MG is workable, too. There is no point to keep a weapon useless just because it's heatless.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

stjobe, on 10 April 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Yeah, but in the immortal words of Bryan: "Now imagine the devastating effect that a 6 MG spider could do to the back of an Atlas!"

Devastating, I tell you! MGs! Devastating! Never mind the 6 SL Jenner that already can do the same and more, IMAGINE THE DEVASTATING EFFECT THAT A 6 MG SPIDER COULD DO!

6. MG. SPIDER!

DEVASTATING!

DEVASTATING 6 MG SPIDERS!

FEAR THEM!

[Wolfyop]

6 MG Spider with only ballistic hardpoints!

[Karl Streiger]

Kmieciu, on 10 April 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Have you seen topics about 6SL Jenner being overpowered?

Can the Jenner fire a endless stream of bullets at zero heat?

[Kmieciu]

The funny thing is hardly anyone uses Small Lasers, since any mech armed with 6xML and 10 DHS can deal 90 damage in 9 seconds (2 full cycles+1 second beam). The Devs know about this, Garth especially as his favorite build is a 6xML Cicada.

MustrumRidcully, on 10 April 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

I think there is also a way to limit the MG with its ammo needs, but if that doesn't work/is too complicated, I'd say adding heat to the MG is workable, too. There is no point to keep a weapon useless just because it's heatless.

A small laser is already on a verge of being heat neutral for most builds using internal (weightless) DHS. You don't have to pay additional tonnage to use multiple small lasers. And since you have to use tonnage for machine gun ammo, a machinegun should actually be more combat effective than a small laser.

Karl Streiger, on 10 April 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

Can the Jenner fire a endless stream of bullets at zero heat?

6xSL Jenner can deal 570 PINPOINT damage in 95 seconds before heat becomes an issue. In that time 6 machine guns can deal 228 damage SPREAD across multiple components.

The stream of bullets is not endless. It is ammo dependent. If you wanted to fire 6 machineguns for the whole round you would need 54 000 rounds = 27 tonnes of ammo.

Edited by Kmieciu, 10 April 2013 - 06:41 AM.

[skamage]

Pinselborste, on 10 April 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

I have never seen any dev playing a mech with mgs, garth for example only used those cicada variants with energy hardpoints only.

would like to have an 8v8 where devs use mg Spiders and the other team SL spiders, would be great to see how fine they are

Watch a few videos with Paul in them. He uses MG in his K2, but yes for the majority of the devs...they don't use them because it's terrible.

[stjobe]

Karl Streiger, on 10 April 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

Can the Jenner fire a endless stream of bullets at zero heat?

No, but neither can the MG.

Unlike the Jenner, the 6 MG Spider (fear it!) WILL run out of ammo - and with 6 MGs (60 rounds/second) it'll run out in a hurry. In fact, it'll need three tons of ammo to even fire for those 95 seconds it takes the Jenner to overheat - and the Jenner can just cool down and then fire for another 95 seconds, doing an additional 570 damage. The MG will be out of ammo and dead weight, doing zero damage.

Face it, the no heat argument is moot.

[Kmieciu]

6xSL Jenner Max sustained DPS = 4.08 => 3673 pinpoint damage per round
6xMG Max sustained DPS = 2.4 => 2160 spread damage per round

And we all know that spreading damage is a waste of time. Just compare LB-10X vs AC10

Edited by Kmieciu, 10 April 2013 - 06:51 AM.

[Eddrick]

RGN doesn't realy belong in a MechWarrior game. Drop this random crit chance. Give MGs atleast a damage buff.

[DemonRaziel]

Karl Streiger, on 10 April 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

Can the Jenner fire a endless stream of bullets at zero heat?

You guys do realize this was sarcasm, right?

And as a side note, I really hope they don't plan to introduce the Devastating™ 6 MG Spider as a new Hero 'Mech.

[Pinselborste]

Kmieciu, on 10 April 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

6xSL Jenner Max sustained DPS = 4.08 => 3673 pinpoint damage per round
6xMG Max sustained DPS = 2.4 => 2160 spread damage per round

And we all know that spreading damage is a waste of time. Just compare LB-10X vs AC10

the max substained dps dont matter much, cause you wont shoot all game Long without a time where you have to get close to a target again, and during that time you will cooldown again.

so the effective dps of the 6SL would still be 6.

[Gierling]

For the guy compiling the MG Stats database Here are my figures: MACHINE GUN 20 10,488 6,552 62.47% 01:47:38 219

[ICEFANG13]

Dremster, on 10 April 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

Some of you seem to have the wrong idea on how to aim machine guns. They are hitscan you don't need to lead with them, just ignore the stream of bullets and keep the reticle on target.

Well that makes sense, now they are amazing weapons!

Karl Streiger, on 10 April 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

Can the Jenner fire a endless stream of bullets at zero heat?

I've already shown a "6MG" Spider that is 100% better than a 6MG Spider could ever be.