1386 replies to this topic

[Eddrick]

Deathlike, on 09 April 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

I had a different suggestion before, using the "crit" bonuses as something applied to normal damage... that could work, but making it random isn't exactly optimal (especially for recordings).

I would like there to be as little RGN as possible. I would like this game to remain as skill based as possible. I don't realy like how much we have that relies on luck, as is.

[Geistmd]

Just an idea..

Dmg / shot <75m range = 0.1
Dmg / shot 75-90m range = 0.08
Dmg / shot 90-180m range = 0.04

Flightspeed of bullet 200 instead of 100

leave all other stats as they are...

Why i suggest this is:

1) If u want to do real dmg (e.g. at armor) u need to be close so the bullets still have "punch" (realistic? im no ballistic expert). Its not easy to pilot a mech that close to a nme all the time, so u have to earn ur higher dmg with pilot skills and not with a simple dmg buff.

2) give the bullets some more speed so u can actually aim at something farer then 60m away (accuracy). Dont forget in most battles u are moving, ur nme is moving and u allways need to target him to get some hits. ATM its even hard to get more the 30% hits in firefights at 60-100m with moving mechs (if both mechs move at over 100 kps its even less %). A little more flightspeed will help here to get at least some more % hitrate (dmg).

Maybe this is a way to to get some new aspects in the MGs. I rather like beeing challenged to master a weapon instead of a simple "we leave all stats on MGs how the are and add 100% dps".

The numbers i posted are just suggestions i dont know if little more or less is the golden way.

[shintakie]

Glad this got moved to the game balance forums. That way no one can actually find it because no one actually comes here.

You have to give the volunteer moderators credit. They absolutely know how to kill a topic.

Edit - Its more amusin because anyone who doesnt see the MG threads on the general discussion forum once all the locked ones get moved wont even know this feedback thread is here! That way when they make a thread and get it locked they're left to wonder why.

Brilliant plan.

Seriously. Friggin buff the damage. Its not hard. Its idiotic to think they're fine as is when they're COMPLETELY USELESS! In the time you can strip a section of components with a MG you can actually blow off the side with a real weapon. Heck, you can do it with a small laser!

Light ballistic mechs and the 3C need a MG that isn't useless or they'll continue to be the useless piles of garbage they are.

Any developer who thinks they're fine as is should be ashamed of themselves for lettin such an idiotic balance issue continue.

Edited by shintakie, 09 April 2013 - 03:43 PM.

[Deathlike]

Eddrick, on 09 April 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

I would like there to be as little RGN as possible. I would like this game to remain as skill based as possible. I don't realy like how much we have that relies on luck, as is.

Sure, I get that. That's why I wrote a different one, that has less randomness involved.

Well, I've kinda rethought my proposal a bit, but here's my idea..

For every second that the MG deals damage to a target (the target must continue receiving MG damage from you), the "damage" multiplier increases for the MG.

Time (in seconds) - Multiplier
0.00 - 1
1.25 - 2
2.50 - 3
3.75 - 4
5.00 - 5

As long as you can keep a stream of damage to the target, your damage multiplier increases with time. This is how you can do 2 DPS, w/o actually changing the fundamental mechanics of the MG. The base DPS is still .4. The tradeoff is literally being exposed. This works perfectly against slower mechs (so you don't feel like it is impossible to dig through their armor) and not so well against faster mechs (lasers are still a light mech's best friend). Unless you have a bad light mech target, this is the way to go IMO.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 April 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[Falconic]

Leave everything about the machine gun alone except for damage per shot. Change damage per shot to .15 or .2 or higher to see if it even can be OP in this game. (.4 would be crazy I think but would prove conclusively if they can be boated)

[Eddrick]

Falconic, on 09 April 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

.4 would be crazy I think but would prove conclusively if they can be boated

The Piranha is the perfect Mech to find out how effective MG boating can be. It comes stock with 12 MGs.

[Bishop Steiner]

So....... just put this together in response to the whole 6 MG spider stuff.....


48 seconds unabated fire against a stationary mechs back. YUP... a buff would indeed be OP.

[Eddrick]

Deathlike, on 09 April 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Sure, I get that. That's why I wrote a different one, that has less randomness involved.

Well, I've kinda rethought my proposal a bit, but here's my idea..

For every second that the MG deals damage to a target (the target must continue receiving MG damage from you), the "damage" multiplier increases for the MG.

Time (in seconds) - Multiplier
0.00 - 1
1.25 - 2
2.50 - 3
3.75 - 4
5.00 - 5

As long as you can keep a stream of damage to the target, your damage multiplier increases with time. This is how you can do 2 DPS, w/o actually changing the fundamental mechanics of the MG. The base DPS is still .4. The tradeoff is literally being exposed. This works perfectly against slower mechs (so you don't feel like it is impossible to dig through their armor) and not so well against faster mechs (lasers are still a light mech's best friend). Unless you have a bad light mech target, this is the way to go IMO.

I like the idea of a scaling increase in damage to the MG.

What it would take to make me want to try a MG is to let it serve the purpose the secondary weapons on the Catapult-K2 are used for. Defence against close range enemies (Light Mechs, Specificly). If it's main purpose is for critical hits. I need it to make critical hits on Leg Actuators, Engines, and important critical slots in the head (Cockpit, Life Support, and Sensors) well before I can destroy the component itself.

[Tennex]

this is where threads go to die

we all know PGI doesn't take balance suggestions

Edited by Tennex, 09 April 2013 - 05:33 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nope, bu twe get any attempts to get attnetion surreptiously locked and exiled to cobweb land.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Well, one small step would be to bring MG's Damage per ton more in line with other ballistics. This is what we currently have.

Name DMG Ammo/t DMG/t
AC/20 20.000 7 140
GAUSS 15.000 10 150
AC/10 10.000 15 150
LB 10-X 10.000 15 150
AC/5 5.000 30 150
ULTRA 5.000 25 125
AC/2 2.000 75 150
MG 0.040 2000 80


So, if we would make changes starting these three variables, then below are a different permutations that I hope can be tested out for MGs. In trying to match Damage per Ton we could at least match to either 125, 140 or 150 raising Damage.

Name DMG Ammo/t DMG/t
MG 0.063 2000 125
MG 0.070 2000 140
MG 0.075 2000 150


But what if we could modify the number of rounds per ton also? If this is possible, I would think that going to 150 damage per ton could be the most viable (but it's still possible to go with one of the other two values for Damage per Ton).

Name DMG Ammo/t DMG/t
MG 0.150 1000 150
MG 0.300 500 150
MG 0.375 400 150
MG 1.000 150 150
MG 2.000 75 150


And any changes should simply keep the DPS close to Small Lasers (Not sure how to calculate DPS for MG's with all of the variables ATM, so I'm leaving that out of this post).

Also, I think that Range for MG's should stay as it currently is at 90M, tweak Max Range, reducing to 180M; and play around with Projectile Speed as needed to keep overall performance close to Small Lasers.

[Psikez]

Make small lasers do .04 DPS and give them a sweet crit buff to bring them in line as the "support" weapon that they are

[Deathlike]

Here's some "ammo" to the MG+crit discussion:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2209534

Although engine crits don't do anything... yet. Right now, external HS added to the engine increases the overall "health" of the engine, and these HS can be removed like any other crits.

Of course.. this is great for another "Ask the Devs" question... but back to the "MGs are still practically useless" discussion.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 April 2013 - 08:21 PM.

[Zordicron]

I want to repost some thoughts from the other thread(s).
Mostly, i think comparing MG to lasers, especially small laser, is an error in logic. Lasers and MG do not function in the same way. they do not really deal dmg the same, they dont get used the same, they dont get put into loadouts the same.
MG are not like lasers, they are like SRM. They have a puny effective range, require ammo, little tonnage, and both need you to face your foe for an extended timeframe to fire.

that said, I find comparing especially heat is silly. the whole "no heat" is a terrible crutch to use, as it basically infers comparison to lasers because they are the systems that require heat managment the most. Really, i dont think anyone adds a bunch of dbl heatsinks for any ballistic or missile system, unless it is heavily boated(like 4 or 6 AC2 and no secondary weapon system to allow for heat managment in between salvos, with only one system, its do or die)

i am to tired to do the math for everyone(hint hint to someone else) but i would be curious to see comparisons for dmg/ton/heat of MG to SRM or even streaks. Dmg/ammo ton. DPS. Comparison should be considered using same tonnage for loadout. For instance:
One MG and one ton ammo= 1.5 tons. 2 MG and ammo is 2.5 tons, etc. compared to-
Streak SRM and one ton ammo =2.5 tons
SRM4 and one ton ammo is 3 tons
AC2 and one ton ammo is 7 tons(so, 8 MG and 3 tons ammo for instance)

i think these comparisons would be a lot more useful then compared to a small laser. i would be curious to see if even 8MG DPS and ammo/ton is comparable to a single AC2, or if the heat from that AC2 is a significant drawback considering the range is like 2500 times(mild hyperbole) a MG range. I feel those types comparisons are more useful, especially if looked at with a tad bit of practicality and in game normal use.

We need some objective, critical thinking for this MG issue, not just OMGRAGE about how they suckz. Spreadsheet warrior wont do it by itself either, we need to apply some normal, logical, actual use in game info to it too, and i dont mean"well I use it and it rox" or "I tried it on my atlas and they suxx" but more "I put an AC2 and 2 MG on my (mech xxxx) and plan to use them as a close range secondary weapon system" and then compare them based on the drawbacks of having an ammo explosion risk, range limitations compared to DPS for other weapons(like SRM2) and then compare some real numbers just to see what it looks like. Doing this would give us some actual decent understanding of how they compare to other stystems other then gut feel or "my 6x MG boat suxx" and then present a logical solution(s) to the dev team later.

TL:DR- someone skim this and post some numbers so i can go to bed for 4 hours to go to work again.

[Terror Teddy]

PGI, the problem here is not about the risk of MG boating - especially since people boat everything ELSE.

The problem is that light mechs with the majority of ballistic points are almost defenseless against OTHER light mechs. With limited space and tonnage there is VERY limited options in firepower and having 4/5 slots with "assistant" weapons that people LITERALLY IGNORE means that a 25 tonne commando have more firepower than a ballistic spider for example. And light mechs should not suck at hunting OTHER light mechs.

[Xelah]

from this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...ametralladoras/

Niko Snow said:

Solo on the heaviest Mech available at full health using 6 of the lightest weapons which have now been specifically redesigned to make them more functional and unique as a support weapon and not at all designed to shred armour.

And less than a minute to kill produces this result:
https://www.youtube....h?v=BzVmPsqHDDQ

Locking duplicate thread.

Are you kidding me? I tested this with six SL's and it took 12 seconds to core out the atlas from behind. Six weapons that have the same weight and don't have ammo that explodes and kills me. Why are you guys so terrified of making a useful light ballistic weapon?

What exactly are the MG's supporting as a "support weapon"? Nothing. It's far more useful to just blow the limb off.

I'll tell you what. You go custom make a spider that can load 6 MGs. I'll bring my Atlas as is. I will destroy you every single time. In my Jenner, I hunt Atlases. In my spider 5v? I run around and hope the enemy starts shooting at me so they aren't shooting at my teammates. This critseeking thing is a complete failure. MGs are useless as is any mech that is forced to boat them.

I'm serious about the 6 MG spider. You go make one. Find me. We can go as many times as you want. If you can kill me even once, I will shut up forever on this subject. Whenyou can't, you live with the knowledge that you were wrong... and hopefully put that to some actual use.

[Kairae]

I'm onboard with MGs @ 0.1 Damage/rnd, 1DPS, 1k rnds/t of ammo.
Leave the additional crit %s, reduce the damage modifier down to a 5x bonus (ie leaving the damage at 0.5 on a crit).

This means that a 6 x MGs does 60 damage in 10 seconds vs the 72 damage 6 x SLs does in the same time (9.75s actually). To do this it burns through 60% of it's ammo (assuming only 1t of ammo). This is balanced against SLs.

[ICEFANG13]

Xelah, on 09 April 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

from this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...ametralladoras/



Are you kidding me? I tested this with six SL's and it took 12 seconds to core out the atlas from behind. Six weapons that have the same weight and don't have ammo that explodes and kills me. Why are you guys so terrified of making a useful light ballistic weapon?

What exactly are the MG's supporting as a "support weapon"? Nothing. It's far more useful to just blow the limb off.

I'll tell you what. You go custom make a spider that can load 6 MGs. I'll bring my Atlas as is. I will destroy you every single time. In my Jenner, I hunt Atlases. In my spider 5v? I run around and hope the enemy starts shooting at me so they aren't shooting at my teammates. This critseeking thing is a complete failure. MGs are useless as is any mech that is forced to boat them.

I'm serious about the 6 MG spider. You go make one. Find me. We can go as many times as you want. If you can kill me even once, I will shut up forever on this subject. Whenyou can't, you live with the knowledge that you were wrong... and hopefully put that to some actual use.

You can do this build actually, if you want to, just have to simulate the other extreme disadvantages, try this build:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...43180e5e1fe795e

And add:
You cannot use beyond 200m, ideally, fire at half potential between 90-200 (miss intentionally) about half the time.
You cannot face away or even at different sections.
Between 10-200, you need to spread the damage all over, as if you cannot aim, as MGs currently do.
After 200 seconds of firing, stop, you're out of ammo (6MGs+4 tons of ammo, 7 tons).

Unfortunately, there's not much to be done about the having to lead with ballistics thing, even with all that, you can't make it as bad.

6 MGs have a DPS of 2.4, 1 LPL, 2.5, and no heat with 10 engine heatsinks.

Oh yeah one more thing, make sure you miss a little bit intentionally, so you can make up that .1 difference.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 09 April 2013 - 10:22 PM.

[Xelah]

ICEFANG13, on 09 April 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

6 MGs have a DPS of 2.4, 1 LPL, 2.5, and no heat with 10 engine heatsinks.

They would generate 2.4 dps if they worked right. It's buried in the OP somewhere, but I have a thread where I tested MG ROF. They only fire 7.6ish shots per second instead of 10 and have a dps of .3

So, the six mg build only has a dps of 1.8

[ICEFANG13]

Yeah that is true, all ballistics and missiles (and maybe energy too, but I think not) require the server to identify if the weapon's cooldown is over and can be used again. I've ran the same mech for so long, I can tell when its not right, and people with higher pings pay more for it. A/C-2s also are detrimental.

Did you know they work correctly in testing though? All the videos showing MGs at the most viable, and that's when it works the best, and it still just sucks doesn't it?