1386 replies to this topic

[Terror Teddy]

SweetWarmIce, on 12 April 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:

TL/DR:

The crit seeking purpose of machine guns is redundant right now.

Machine guns need to have reasonable damage potential even on armour.

Either buff damage per bullet or ammo per tonne to equal 150 damage per tonne of ammo.
And/or make the MG do it's TT damage of 2 within 3 or 4 seconds.

Boating MGs could be dangerous but short range, damage over time nature, spread and ammo requirement mitigate the threat.

A little more than that is needed actually. With a 200 second timer before you deliver 1 tonne of damage it is basically the slowest weapon in the game.

The slowest ballistic weapon delivers 1 tonne of damage in 50 seconds and the MG's should not be slower than that.

Unless of course PGI has planned that one SHOULD be able to boat MG's with 1 tonne of ammo...In that case they should quadruple the ammo per tonne and make the guns shoot even faster.

[HammerSwarm]

Merchant, on 11 April 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

I see no reason for buffing the MG other than personal bias.
This is not MW3 and clearly MW3 did the MG wrong.

what is the the ballistic option for less than 6 tons that does anything?
That's the reason. Lights and mediums need the option. Even in my Jager-DD I have trouble filling the hard points with anything useful. A guild mate runs 6 machine guns and 2 er ppcs. He laughs and says that he has a ppc boat. I personally run mine with 4x uac5s and ignore those other hard points.

If machine guns were useful this wouldn't be a thread. You should try using them before you thread dump here. Thanks for the bump. (If you do use them please post your stats)

[Kmieciu]

SweetWarmIce, on 12 April 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:

The other stand out is the Jagermech JM6-DD. 6 machine guns right now are 2.4 DPS. Using the above ideas this would either be 3 DPS (0.05) 4.02 DPS (0.067) or 4.5 DPS (0.075). You could fit a Standard 315, Endo-Steel, DHS, max armour and 14 tonnes of ammo. Nasty up close but anyone could out-run or out-gun it.

Do you realize that right now you can make a 5xAC2 JM6-DD with 5.08 / 20 DPS ?
That means 5.08 DPS ALL THE TIME without GAINING HEAT,
20 DPS max (sustainable for 8 seconds) 180 damage in 8 seconds! You can backstab 2 Atlases in 8 seconds!

Effective range 720
max range: 2160

How OP it that?

Not much. I haven't even seen those builds in 8vs8. And 20 DPS is only attainable with low ping, because of the server - controlled fire.

In fact you can make HEAT NEUTRAL 8 DPS Jaggermech: 2xAC2

IT WILL NEVER OVERHEAT

2xAC2
8 HEAT NEUTRAL DPS
720 meters range
pinpoint damage
enough ammo to deal 900 points of damage

vs

2.4 DPS (6xMG)
90 meters range
spread damage

Think about it.

Edited by Kmieciu, 12 April 2013 - 06:05 AM.

[Esplodin]

LackofCertainty, on 11 April 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Learn the difference between exaggerating to ridicule your opponent and the strawman fallacy.

Lack of knowledge about logical fallacies in debate: Check.

LackofCertainty, on 11 April 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Are you really okay with one MG doing as much damage as 4 SL's? If so, the spider that mounts 4 of those would be a complete monster. It'd have the equivalent of 16SL. (actually a little worse, since MG's require uninterrupted aim to deal the damage, but still) And since there'd be no heat concerns, that spider could toss on a LL too, and crank it's dps up to 18.12, which is more than most assaults have.

Small laser: front loaded damage in 0.75 seconds for 3 damage. 2.25 seconds to twist incoming damage spread or cool down behind a building.
MG: To do the same damage as the small laser in the same time is. . .

wait for it. . .

4DPS (3 damage in 0.75 seconds)

The spider in that example would (using 150 damage per ton) go through a ton of ammo in 3.75 seconds of firing, making a ton of ammo go FAST. An Atlas back has 97ish points of armor if smurfy is anything to go by. So given the huge cone you are taking out the ENTIRE back, unless you are insanely close. Ergo, 5-7 seconds of unmolested rear access to an Alas for surprise butsex, costing about 1.25 TONS of ammo at 100% accuracy.

LackofCertainty, on 11 April 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

TL;DR
Not a strawman. If you want 4dps on an MG, you're too dense to be talking about balance.

The fear is strong with this one. ALL OTHER BALLISTICS ARE ABOUT 4DPS, and they are NOT scary. Remove the cone of fire and let me use aim, then I'd be for 2DPS.

[stjobe]

LackofCertainty, on 11 April 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Are you really okay with one MG doing as much damage as 4 SL's?

Hahaha, how did I miss this, priceless!

Let me turn that question right back at you: Are you really okay with one SL doing as much damage as 4 MGs?

Because that's where we are right now. Not on paper, not SpreadsheetWarrior Online, but in-game, where it counts.

[General Taskeen]

What I can't understand is how the dev that claimed he loved MW3, doesn't have the pull to make the MW3 MG make a return in this game so we can all get on with our lives and create massive threads for Flamers, LB-X, and NARC.

Too much elbow rubbing at PGI Headquarters.

Edited by General Taskeen, 12 April 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[RealityCheck]

I've noticed requests for machine gun stats so I'd thought I'd post mine.
The vast majority of this is in my Cicada 3C running four mgs with a few other obsure mechs thrown in (k2 and dragon I think).

Weapon: Machine Gun

Matches: 81

Fired: 91,965

Hit: 52,922

Accuracy: 57.62%

Time Equip: 07:41:21

Damage: 2,190

Hope that helps
RealityCheck

[Hedonism Robot]

The machine gun takes lots of risks for zero rewards. If internals were doubled in health we might see the machine gun work a bit better but as it stands it just makes no sense to equip one. Once a component is exposed you might as well just blow it off. The only crit seeking weapon that is remotely viable is the LBX 10 since it still delivers a decent punch, even that weapon though is usually not used in favor of an UAC since the UAC does more dps, long range and lighter.

I have been very pleased with how much content and work you have been putting into the game PGI, but weapon and item balance I feel is really lagging behind. Many other F2P games like league of legends take a much more aggressive approach with item tweaks and balances. League infact does around 2 balance tweaks a month, while nothing is ever going to be truly balanced it has really opened up a lot of choices for gamers.

[Kmieciu]

RealityCheck, on 12 April 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

I've noticed requests for machine gun stats so I'd thought I'd post mine.
The vast majority of this is in my Cicada 3C running four mgs with a few other obsure mechs thrown in (k2 and dragon I think).

Weapon: Machine Gun

Matches: 81

Fired: 91,965

Hit: 52,922

Accuracy: 57.62%

Time Equip: 07:41:21

Damage: 2,190

Hope that helps
RealityCheck

2 190 / 52 922 = 0.0413
I'm impressed! You really know how to use them! That must mean you mostly shoot inside 90 meters and often hit exposed internals.
On the other hand 2190 / 81 = 27 damage per mach is really pathetic when you think about it. I'm talking about your skill, I'm talking about the weapon. My MG score is 7 damage per mach :-(
But in comparison I used medium lasers in 183 matches and did 22 582 damage. That's 123,4 damage per mech.

People that use small and medium lasers on ligh mechs.

[General Taskeen]

Kmieciu, on 12 April 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

2 190 / 52 922 = 0.0413
I'm impressed! You really know how to use them! That must mean you mostly shoot inside 90 meters and often hit exposed internals.
On the other hand 2190 / 81 = 27 damage per mach is really pathetic when you think about it. I'm talking about your skill, I'm talking about the weapon. My MG score is 7 damage per mach :-(
But in comparison I used medium lasers in 183 matches and did 22 582 damage. That's 123,4 damage per mech.

People that use small and medium lasers on ligh mechs.

That and they never care to admit win/losses. Every game I've seen people using Spider-5K's (example) with 4 MG's they ALWAYS die. One of my squadmates joined a game with Four Spider-5k's with the same exact 4 MG build (probably during the 'mg' test phase in the threads) and destroyed every player just by standing still as they circled him. We had a great laugh at the Spider Group testing their MG's.

[stjobe]

Kmieciu, on 12 April 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

2 190 / 52 922 = 0.0413
I'm impressed! You really know how to use them! That must mean you mostly shoot inside 90 meters and often hit exposed internals.

On the other hand: 2,190 / 91,965 = 0.02381 = 0.24 effective DPS.

General Taskeen, on 12 April 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

That and they never care to admit win/losses. Every game I've seen people using Spider-5K's (example) with 4 MG's they ALWAYS die.

0.68 WLR and 0.25 KDR...

[Conraire]

The only time MG's have been even remotely useful for me in game so far. Was Doing a Jager 6-S with 4 MG's and 4 Large lasers. Could get behind someone, rail em with with the lasers, and then just blow off their side torsos and arms with the MG crits. But even then I prefer to just use Dual AC10s, with 4 mediums just for the faster direct dmg punch.

And like I stated, people are thinking of MG's wrong in this context. Everyone thinks we're talking about small bore things like what people could carry. When like i posted above, we're actually talking about Large bore gatling guns, which are generally vehicle mounted and used against other vehicles.

I'm talking about ways to make them balanced and viable for actual use. And one issue is, no mechwarrior game has done them right, other than maybe MW3. But I can't seem to find my MW3 disc to check it out. Found every other MW Game disc I have, just not that one.

[Kmieciu]

stjobe, on 12 April 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

On the other hand: 2,190 / 91,965 = 0.02381 = 0.24 effective DPS.

If you assume he always fires 4 machineguns then to fire 91 965 rounds he had to keep the trigger pressed for 91965 rounds / (4*10 rounds/second) = 2299,125 seconds. 2190 / 2299,125 = 0,95 DPS. That is less than 1 small laser! 4 machineguns are supposed to have 1.6 DPS right now.
Are they firing slower than 10 rounds per second?

Edited by Kmieciu, 12 April 2013 - 07:55 AM.

[Deathlike]

stjobe, on 12 April 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

0.68 WLR and 0.25 KDR...

I wouldn't lose sleep over the < 1 KDR (most non-ECM light mechs would be fortunate to be over 1 KDR). I would lose sleep over the < 1 WLR.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 April 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Deathlike, on 12 April 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

I wouldn't lose sleep over the < 1 KDR (most non-ECM light mechs would be fortunate to be over 1 KDR). I would lose sleep over the < 1 WLR.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Kmieciu, on 12 April 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

If you assume he always fires 4 machineguns then to fire 91 965 rounds he had to keep the trigger pressed for 91965 rounds / (4*10 rounds/second) = 2299,125 seconds. 2190 / 2299,125 = 0,95 DPS. That is less than 1 small laser! 4 machineguns are supposed to have 1.6 DPS right now.
Are they firing slower than 10 rounds per second?

Yes. In training ground it's something like 8.9 shots per second. In game even less.

[SmokinDave73]

I have read quite a few threads in regard to whether or not machines gun are balanced or do they do enough damage ect ect. The one thing I have not seen talked about much are their range.
The machine guns optimum range is 90 meters and its maximum range is 200. My proposal the make the machine gun a more viable weapon is not to increase its damage, I think if the machine guns range were to be doubled so that its optimum range is 180 meters and its maxium becomes 400 meters. This would make it so you don’t have to be in a mechs face just to be in optimal range and do good internal structure damage.

With the optimum range only being 90 meters the machine gun is only really viable to use on mechs that are running at high speeds such as lights and mediums. If the range were to be doubled it would mean heavier mechs like the Jager and Atlas could actually use machine guns for what there meant to achieve in MWO which is doing critical damage to weapons and exposed internal structure. I cannot see any down side at all to this easy change other than that machine guns would actually see a little more use, I know it’s nothing drastic like a damage buff but I honestly think a range increase is what machine guns in MWO really need.

Would anyone else be happy to see the machine guns ranged increased?

[stjobe]

Kmieciu, on 12 April 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

If you assume he always fires 4 machineguns then to fire 91 965 rounds he had to keep the trigger pressed for 91965 rounds / (4*10 rounds/second) = 2299,125 seconds. 2190 / 2299,125 = 0,95 DPS. That is less than 1 small laser! 4 machineguns are supposed to have 1.6 DPS right now.
Are they firing slower than 10 rounds per second?

And if you divide 0.95 by 4, you get 0.2375 - which is rather close to the 0.02381 per projectile I calculated in the post above.

So end result: 1 SL does more DPS than 4 MG.

And yes, they are firing slower than 10 rounds per second due to the server-authoritative nature of the game.

SmokinDave73, on 12 April 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Would anyone else be happy to see the machine guns ranged increased?

With the spread they have, a range increase is totally and utterly useless.

Edited by stjobe, 12 April 2013 - 08:23 AM.

[RealityCheck]

Thanks Kmieciu!
For a better perspective, here's some more stats
My primary weapon on my Cicada 3C is a Large Pulse Laser so:

Weapon: Large Pulse Laser
Matches: 65
Fired: 1,507
Hit: 1,387
Accuracy: 92.04%
Time Equip: 06:07:24
Damage: 7,396

Course I've used other weapons (Large Laser, ER Large Laser, and PPC to a more limited extent). My mech stats will show this.

Mech: Cicada CDA-3C
Matches Played: 73
Wins: 30
Losses: 43
Ratio: 0.70
Kills: 35
Deaths: 42
Ratio: 0.83
Damage Done: 10,155
XP Earned: 40,416
Time Played: 06:53:59

As you can see, I wasn't kidding about being a die-hard 3C pilot
RealityCheck

[Kmieciu]

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 12 April 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

Yes. In training ground it's something like 8.9 shots per second. In game even less.

I used a stopwatch to measure how many bullets I can fire during 60 seconds:

Using 2 machine guns on Training grounds:

1008 rounds / 60 seconds = 8.4 rounds per second per machine gun

On the live server (sorry fellow PUG for not helping you):

968 rounds / 60 seconds = 8.06 rounds per second per machine gun

My ping is about 130.

Edited by Kmieciu, 12 April 2013 - 08:32 AM.