1386 replies to this topic

[Terror Teddy]

Curccu, on 23 April 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Piranha is clan mech so clan MG ,25t each = 3 tons for 12 MGs

Good catch, forgot about that one.

that gives quite plenty of tonnage then

[Erata]

There is no reason to use machineguns in the current long range meta.

[Terror Teddy]

Erata, on 23 April 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

There is no reason to use machineguns in the current long range meta.

Everything becomes short range after 5 seconds for a light mech.

[Xelah]

Terror Teddy, on 23 April 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Everything becomes short range after 5 seconds for a light mech.

This. Sooner if there is adequate terrain cover.



Also, I would like to take a moment to respond to the Devs:
I appreciate the update letting us know that you're looking into this. I was beginning to suspect what we were howling in a vacuum, but it is nice to see that we have gotten through to you. Again, I really appreciate that you're looking into this.

Something I'd like to add; If you could keep up the transparency on what you're doing balance-wise, some of us would be less inclined to use our rabble rousing powers for evil.

[TOGSolid]

Xelah, on 23 April 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

This. Sooner if there is adequate terrain cover.



Also, I would like to take a moment to respond to the Devs:
I appreciate the update letting us know that you're looking into this. I was beginning to suspect what we were howling in a vacuum, but it is nice to see that we have gotten through to you. Again, I really appreciate that you're looking into this.

Something I'd like to add; If you could keep up the transparency on what you're doing balance-wise, some of us would be less inclined to use our rabble rousing powers for evil.

Does rabble rousing for information really count as evil? I thought it was more "being intentionally annoying for the greater good." Ends/means etc.

[JC 136]

i would like to update my previous post. upon testing in the training grounds, i found that it took nearly 2000 rounds to the cockpit of a cicada to down it. and the training ground stats ( as i have been made aware ) are much better than base game stats. this means ( in all likely hood ) it would take THOUSANDS of rounds( scattered accross mech parts ) on target in a standard game to down a LIGHT MECH. this practically makes primary blastic light mechs ( meaning machine machine guns) completly unusable.

[HammerSwarm]

stjobe, on 23 April 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

From that post:

Let's see what we can do to make a viable MG under those restrictions?

Range: 90m/270m max
RoF: 25
Spread: none
Damage: 0.08

Hey presto, 2 DPS MG

Even with my relatively low ping of 50-75 I can still only make it to the mid eights. increasing the theoretical cap to 25 would only widen the gap between what is possible and what is theoretically possible.


Range: 90m/270m max
RoF: 5 per second or (.2)
Spread: none practical, slight in animation.
Damage: .4 per bullet.(2.0) DPS

Still not OP by any means.

[RealityCheck]

FireSlade, on 23 April 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Not sure how to quote other posts like this but this is good news to see just saying that these things are under review assures the community that at least we aren't being ignored even if the changes don't happen right away.

"Sorry it's been a while but I'm inundated with other tasks at the moment. But it's high time I updated you on the next incoming set of numbers.

Currently under review:
MG range, RoF, and spread, slight damage adjustment.
LBX/10 Spread.
LRM speed adjustment (This has nothing to do with trajectory and clustering, just something that is needed overall).
AC/5 Range and possible dmg adjustment.
BAP improvements.

No, you can't have numbers, and no you can't have dates. They are under review at the moment and initial testing is being ramped up. This post is just so you know stuff IS still happening on the weapon balance front.

Edit: We are also looking into increasing damage caused by Air Strike/Artillery. This may be done by either increasing the damage per shell/bomb or by increasing the splash damage radius so it does more damage before falling off to 0." -Paul Inouye

Originially from Command Chair post on Weapon Balance^^


Huzzah! The system works! Patience is indeed a virtue
RealityCheck

[Terror Teddy]

Xelah, on 23 April 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

Also, I would like to take a moment to respond to the Devs:
I appreciate the update letting us know that you're looking into this. I was beginning to suspect what we were howling in a vacuum, but it is nice to see that we have gotten through to you. Again, I really appreciate that you're looking into this.

DITTO!

[HammerSwarm]

Merchant, on 22 April 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

I also contend this is an argument for alternate weapons ranging between the 0.5 ton MG and the 6 ton AC/2. Just so long as there is no attempt to copy something existing or change time periods, it can be done, seen similar done in other games. Part of gaming no matter how the game is played (board, card, computer, etc.) is the ability to be creative in coming up with solutions, here creating alternate light or even medium Ballistics.

Well the we agree(I think) that the end goal here is that we need something between .5(1.5) and 6(7) tons. In regular table top battle tech what was the weapon that did this?(3050 rules, no clan tech) I and I think most here would contend that it was the machine gun. The machine gun also had the role of protecting mechs with minimum range weapons when and if something closed in. From a mech design standpoint this makes sense. You don't want a range where you are defenseless for a skilled pilot to take you apart.

This is a design choice by the devs but in table top the A/C 2 has a minimum range. Not so much in MWO. In table top what ballistic weapon would you use to fill that minimum range in 3050(no clan tech)? Now how about in MWO?

Now in table top small mechs use machine guns such as the Piranha. Do you think a Piranha would work as intended in MWO?

I am interested to hear your thoughts.

[Terror Teddy]

HammerSwarm, on 24 April 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

Now in table top small mechs use machine guns such as the Piranha. Do you think a Piranha would work as intended in MWO?

I am interested to hear your thoughts.

The piranha is an extreme example but earlier in the thread we came to the conclusion that the Piranha would be around 12,5 tonnes wihtout MG ammo or Armour.

Add minimum 4 tonnes MG ammo and you still have 3,5 tonnes for armour.

The drawback is the damage.

4,8 DPS - 12 MG´s
3,5 DPS - 2 ER Clan Medium Lasers [assumed same recycle as the medium laser]
1,0 DPS - 1 ER Clan Small Laser [assumed same recycle as the small laser]

4,8 DPS with 12 weapons.

TWELVE!

I can´t say it scares me very much.

[Yokaiko]

Of course using a mech that is 8 years down the road......

[HammerSwarm]

Yokaiko, on 24 April 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

Of course using a mech that is 8 years down the road......

That's your serious objection? that we used a mech that doesn't exist in the timeline yet? Wow. Refute the other part, the one where machine guns are useless.

[Loler skates]

HammerSwarm, on 24 April 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

That's your serious objection? that we used a mech that doesn't exist in the timeline yet? Wow. Refute the other part, the one where machine guns are useless.

you want every one to wait 8 years before they have a situation where machine guns are actually useful?

[C E Dwyer]

MGs are not usless, they were stuck on mech to be anti infanty weapons which in itself asks the question why when it has heavy stompy feet and alot have hands, that could be used against mech when they had to be, puffing them will take away the point in the concept of them, they allready have a higher change of critting unarmoured area's for their actual damage perctage.

The spider was developed as a scout anti personel mech so why its here in a game where there are no soft targets makes me shake my head sadly at those that introduced it, and the Mg is almost certainly in the game because its Canon and it is here to stop those complaining about them not being in a game about mechwarrior, where they were in many mechs.

They don't need a damage buff.

the limited damage output weighs against the fact other than being pounded by multple LRM launches hearing rat tat tat ping ping ping and your damage indicators lighting up the most likely thing to put you off your aim and look for the fly annoying you..

It dosn't build up heat, it does small amount of damage per shell but each of those shells has a chance to crit, thats alot of crit chances over a few seconds, which I think many are forgetting about.

[HammerSwarm]

Loler skates, on 24 April 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

you want every one to wait 8 years before they have a situation where machine guns are actually useful?

I think you missed my point, I was saying they should be fixed now. To make this point I was using a mech from the future that uses the weapon to point out exactly how useless the current machine gun is.

Bottom Line: Fix it now, because it's broken now.

[HammerSwarm]

Cathy, on 24 April 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

MGs are not usless, they were stuck on mech to be anti infanty weapons which in itself asks the question why when it has heavy stompy feet and alot have hands, that could be used against mech when they had to be, puffing them will take away the point in the concept of them, they allready have a higher change of critting unarmoured area's for their actual damage perctage.

Esplodin, on 22 April 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

[Nihtgenga]

Cathy, on 24 April 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

They don't need a damage buff.

the limited damage output weighs against the fact other than being pounded by multple LRM launches hearing rat tat tat ping ping ping and your damage indicators lighting up the most likely thing to put you off your aim and look for the fly annoying you..

It dosn't build up heat, it does small amount of damage per shell but each of those shells has a chance to crit, thats alot of crit chances over a few seconds, which I think many are forgetting about.

First: the distraction is not coming from fearing the MG fire - it's coming from the fear that the mech behind you might have a real weapon, too, which he will use after seeing the MG non-damage inflicted.
Second: Armour does not get critted.
Third: Crits cripple, damage kills. This is not BDSM online, it is Mechwarrior online - so at the moment (thinking about the crit-system) it is a no-brainer, what to prefer.

[Loler skates]

HammerSwarm, on 24 April 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

I think you missed my point, I was saying they should be fixed now. To make this point I was using a mech from the future that uses the weapon to point out exactly how useless the current machine gun is.

Bottom Line: Fix it now, because it's broken now.

oh in which case yes, my apologies I've seen so many dumb reasons given for why the mg shouldn't be buffed i thought you were seriously proposing mgs were okay because in 8years time there would be a mech which wouldn't be complete and utter garbage (it still would) thanks to boating 12 of them.

[FrostCollar]

Cathy, on 24 April 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

It doesn't build up heat, it does small amount of damage per shell but each of those shells has a chance to crit, that's a_lot of crit chances over a few seconds, which I think many are forgetting about.

Have you read the chart on how long it takes an MG to destroy components/sections versus how long it takes an SL to do the same? It turns out that even when armor's gone the MG's advantage isn't enormous due to its small damage per shot and in fact with smaller mechs the uncrittable engine eats almost all of the crits and makes a SL a superior option for eliminating components in the CT.

The fact is, nearly all components have a health of 10. Even with its elevated crit chance, the MG still takes some time to destroy things. Certainly four MGs would be better, but for that weight you could have six SLs (assuming 1 ton ammo) and they'd do any job the MGs can do better.