1386 replies to this topic

[Leafia Barrett]

stjobe, on 07 August 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

It wasn't "a single good run". It was a planned and carefully executed experiment by an experienced Light and Spider pilot (that incidentally has been campaigning for a useful MG since closed beta).

Any experiment with only one data point is an incredibly poor experiment. Give us 10, 20, 30 matches of data before you make any conclusions.

[stjobe]

Leafia Barrett, on 07 August 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Any experiment with only one data point is an incredibly poor experiment. Give us 10, 20, 30 matches of data before you make any conclusions.

So if we want to get scientific about it:

I presented the hypothesis that MGs are currently useful.

I also presented the theoretical underpinnings of the hypothesis (see my posts above for the math); the theory is that with the new crit bonus damage, the MG is in fact useful to kill other 'mechs with, at least when used in quad mountings.

This theory predicts that using a 'mech with quad MGs can get you kills in a match, and the testable assertion is that dropping in a match and using only those quad MGs against breached targets will in fact do so.

The theoretical prediction leads to a very simple experiment that could falsify the hypothesis (drop in a 4MG Spider, try to kill enemies using only the 4 MGs once armour is breached - if it can't be done, my hypothesis is flawed and the theory needs revising).

The experimental results failed to falsify the hypothesis, and therefore those results tentatively support the theory.

The experiment is eminently repeatable by anyone, so feel free to try it. I've repeated it myself a few times today, and while I haven't had three kills in a match again, I have killed 'mechs with my MGs - something I wasn't able to reliably do before yesterday's patch.

Finally, there's ample anecdotal support for the theory in the fact that there's a lot of MG 'mechs running around since yesterday (Not only 6MG Jagers, but 4MG Spiders, 4MG Cicadas, 3MG Dragons and Victors), and I've both been killed by MGs and seen these MG 'mechs kill quite a few other 'mechs.

Now then, what are your objections to the hypothesis, experiment, or conclusion? Just saying I haven't tested it enough doesn't really cut it; show me a better experiment to falsify the theory or show me where you think the theory is wrong.

[Deathlike]

I watched the match, and it was gloriously funny.

So, I'm convinced that the crit bonus needs to be nerfed a bit... from 1.25 damage to .75 or 1 (and the rest scaled as appropriately) with the COF reduction of some sort. That should balance it out better.

[Mizore]

Yes, MGs finally do acceptable damage when the target's armor is gone, BUT: the Spider 5K only performs so good because of the messed up hitboxes.
When this is fixed, you most likely won't see things like this again.

And honestly, when you'd use MedLasers instead of MGs, you could do significantly more damage... and don't forget, the damage isn't alone from MGs, but there's also a Large Laser (or sth similar) that also does tons of damage!

[Utilyan]

did someone say MG's need to be nerfed? seriously?

[Wintersdark]

Ok... I never thought I'd say this.. but...

Machine guns are OK now. They're not superweapons, by any stretch of the imagination, but for .5t+ammo, they're worth taking if other ballistics are not an option.

I'm a bad light pilot. Really bad. In fact, I'm terrible. But I've been pulling 250-400 damage games in my MG/ERLL spider, where previously topping 200 was truly outstanding.

This is not because of the hard-to-hit-spiders thing (that applied before as well), but rather because firing CT, Machine Guns do a ****-ton of damage once the armor is gone. All those Engine Crits which don't actually matter? Now they're echoing to the CT internals.

It works out, though, because said machine guns are still pretty much harmless while armor exists.

Which brings me to the conclusion: Paul actually managed to make machine guns do what he wanted them to do: Tear up internals, but be weak against armor.

It didn't work before, because losing the odd weapon wasn't really a big deal. High crit damage looked cool, but it wasn't terribly useful, because all those other mech systems were invincible (actuators, engines, etc).

Now? Now the MG can crit those components, and while they're still invulnerable, that damage gets pushed back to the internals of the component. It... works!

[Leafia Barrett]

Wintersdark, on 08 August 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

Now? Now the MG can crit those components, and while they're still invulnerable, that damage gets pushed back to the internals of the component. It... works!

This would be true, if the MGs didn't spray the damage all over the place. Unless the entirety of the enemy mech is armorless, there's going to be a fair bit of ammo wasted hitting armor (if it hits at all).

[Wintersdark]

Leafia Barrett' Timestamp='1376103469 said:

This would be true, if the MGs didn't spit the damage all over tcut place. Unless the entirety of the enemy mech is armorless, there's going to be a fair bit of ammo wasted hitting armor (if it hits at all).

The cone of fire sucks, but its not that big. Yes, some ammowill be "wasted" on armor (still one DPS remember) but the result is shocking.

This is not theorycrafting. I'm not just playing Spreadsheet Warrior. I've been a solid "buff machine guns" man from the get go.

But before you say things like the above, try it. Seriously. 3-4 machine guns at roughly 90m will core practically any mech who's ct armor has been stripped in a amazingly fast time.

If not for the inherent flaws (cone of fire, range) it would make machine guns possibly overpowered.

Ive

[Wintersdark]

Gah, this forum hates my phone.

I've been experimenting with my ballistic spider - arguably the worst mech in the game, and I'm racking up 600-800 point games regularly. Normally I'd consider 200 damage done exceptional in it (I'm terrible with lights)

And, yes, I'm usually right up front with "results from one or even several battles mean very little"... But nothing else changed. The only difference is the crit damage buff. Pulling 3+ kills and 600+ damage matches with this mech IS NOT NORMAL.

and, no, the spider hit registration is not the factor here - I'm getting those kills and damage very fast.

More so, I've seen comparable results with my 3MG 2LL hunchback - and gotten them while stopping LL fire once the armor is stripped.

[Sephlock]

I am begging you guys to stop discussing this. Given their past record, PGI will NERF MACHINEGUNS INTO THE ****ING GROUND.

Like, future school children will ask historians and archaeologists if there was ever such a weapon as the "machine gun" in Battletech, and they will look back at the children and shake their heads "no". Any and all traces of this once (briefly) usable weapon will fade into the mists of time, so complete will have been its destruction.

[One Medic Army]

They are good enough against internals now that having them on a mech is no longer just for the sound effects.
They are still terrible against armor, and they're still incapable of being a primary weapon.

They are, however, finally viable as a secondary or tertiary weapon.

[stjobe]

One Medic Army, on 10 August 2013 - 02:09 AM, said:

They are good enough against internals now that having them on a mech is no longer just for the sound effects.
They are still terrible against armor, and they're still incapable of being a primary weapon.

They are, however, finally viable as a secondary or tertiary weapon.

They're not even that terrible against armour since the bump to 0.1 damage per projectile; they do almost as much DPS vs armour as a medium laser. Their continuing problem is that the damage is short-ranged and spread, but the increased damage vs IS and components more than makes up for it.

You need something to breach the armour with to make them really shine though, but most light ballistic 'mechs can mount a LL or a PPC to do that - and your team mates will of course also help out.

A single MG does 1 DPS vs armour, roughly 3 DPS vs internal structure, and over 11 DPS vs internal components.

# of MGs - vs armour - vs IS - vs components
1 - 1 - 3 - 11
2 - 2 - 6 - 22
3 - 3 - 9 - 33
4 - 4 - 12 - 44
6 - 6 - 18 - 66

12 DPS vs IS from a SDR-5K? Better watch out once your armour gets breached; that's as much DPS (if not the immediate damage) as three AC/10s, and more DPS than an AC/40.

Testing done by Selfish also seems to confirm that the IS damage is applied even to locations without any internal components, so basically the MG is now the finisher par excellence for any 'mech that cannot mount high-alpha weapons. It will get you kills.

Even a pair mounted as backup on a heavier 'mech is now useful as filler/cooldown damage - especially vs breached sections (6 DPS is almost equal to 4 ML, although it will spread a bit).

Edited by stjobe, 10 August 2013 - 03:34 AM.

[Leafia Barrett]

stjobe, on 10 August 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

They're not even that terrible against armour since the bump to 0.1 damage per projectile; they do almost as much DPS vs armour as a medium laser. Their continuing problem is that the damage is short-ranged and spread, but the increased damage vs IS and components more than makes up for it.

You need something to breach the armour with to make them really shine though, but most light ballistic 'mechs can mount a LL or a PPC to do that - and your team mates will of course also help out.

A single MG does 1 DPS vs armour, roughly 3 DPS vs internal structure, and over 11 DPS vs internal components.

# of MGs - vs armour - vs IS - vs components
1 - 1 - 3 - 11
2 - 2 - 6 - 22
3 - 3 - 9 - 33
4 - 4 - 12 - 44
6 - 6 - 18 - 66

12 DPS vs IS from a SDR-5K? Better watch out once your armour gets breached; that's as much DPS (if not the immediate damage) as three AC/10s, and more DPS than an AC/40.

Testing done by Selfish also seems to confirm that the IS damage is applied even to locations without any internal components, so basically the MG is now the finisher par excellence for any 'mech that cannot mount high-alpha weapons. It will get you kills.

Even a pair mounted as backup on a heavier 'mech is now useful as filler/cooldown damage - especially vs breached sections (6 DPS is almost equal to 4 ML, although it will spread a lot).

ftfy
Ooh. Okay, now I like what I'm hearing. As I said before, the cone of fire still needs to go, but if this is the case, than that's the only remaining change needed.

[Wintersdark]

What I like is that this opens up lots of new build options, rather than often ignoring ballistic slot if you weren't interested in investing 8+ tons in each.

You're not gimping yourself by not taking them, they're still not overpowered, but they are a very using brawling tool.

[Tennex]

They're quite good now. maybe a little bit too good.

Running test on 4Small Laser 4MG jagermech.

Testing the time to core atlas from back armor.
4SL at 0-90m: 22s (6s Armor, 16 Internal)
2ML at 0-270m 33s (9s Armor, 24 Internal)
4MG at 0-60m: 14s (8s Armor, 6s Internal)


Testing damage over distance MG vs. SL
60m: MG: 14s SL: 22s
90m: MG: 16s SL: 22s
120m:MG: 19s SL: 31s
150m:MG: 32s SL: 70s


Whelp now MGs are better than SL at all ranges, with no heat.

[Wintersdark]

Tennex, on 10 August 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

They're quite good now. maybe a little bit too good.

Running test on 4Small Laser 4MG jagermech.

Testing the time to core atlas from back armor.
4SL at 0-90m: 22s (6s Armor, 16 Internal)
2ML at 0-270m 33s (9s Armor, 24 Internal)
4MG at 0-60m: 14s (8s Armor, 6s Internal)


Testing damage over distance MG vs. SL
60m: MG: 14s SL: 22s
90m: MG: 16s SL: 22s
120m:MG: 19s SL: 31s
150m:MG: 32s SL: 70s


Whelp now MGs are better than SL at all ranges, with no heat.

Not a problem, if you ask me.

Small Lasers are extremely low heat, and Machine Guns - while zero heat - pay for that with having to carry (very explosive) ammunition.

2 Small Lasers? 1 ton 2 slots, 1.34 HPS, 2 DPS, 44% Time on Target.

2 Machine Guns? 2 ton 3 slots w/ minimum ammo, 0 HPS, 2DPS (8DPS to internals), 100% Time On Target, cone of fire, explosive ammo risk, 0 DPS once ammo exhausted.

All energy weapons are hotter than ballistics, that's the whole design paradigm between energy/ballistics in Battletech. Energy weapons are lower DPS and hotter, but are not beholden to ammunition limits and do not endanger the user via ammo explosions.

Edited by Wintersdark, 10 August 2013 - 06:28 PM.

[White Bear 84]

stjobe, on 07 August 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Oh, don't twist my words that way

They're not OP, they're just not completely useless any more. In 4's and 6's, they are actually rather good at killing stuff.


No, they really are useful for e.g. the SDR-5K with its four ballistic slots. Prior to yesterday, those slots were indeed wasted space. But with yesterday's patch, it's actually possible to reliably kill 'mechs with those MGs - and not by some random lucky shot, but by actually using them as weaponry. That was what my little experiment was designed to test, and the results support the hypothesis.


This will always be the case, an AC/10 that crits will always destroy a component outright (and now also deal 1.5 to 3.5 extra IS damage).

But we're talking MGs here, the lightest of the ballistic weapons - and it has a crit damage bonus that means the new internal structure damage will be proportionally larger. Remember, it's 15% of crit damage, not 15% of regular damage. In the case of the MG, that means that the internal structure damage will be higher than the regular damage by far:

No crit (39%): 0.1 damage to IS
Single crit (25% + 11%): 0.1 + 0.1875 damage to IS (and 1.25 to component)
Double crit(14% + 6%): 0.2 + 0.375 damage to IS (and 2.5 to component)
Triple crit (3% + 2%): 0.3 + 0.525 damage to IS (and 3.75 to component)

If you do the math, this means that a single 1.0 DPS MG does roughly 3 DPS (2.9875) against a breached target's internal structure, and over 11 DPS (11.36) to its internal components! (Although spread and general accuracy will do its part to lower those numbers by approximately 25% to 50%, that's still a LOT of DPS).

Let me repeat those numbers: The current MG does 1 DPS to armour, 3 DPS to internal structure, and 11 DPS to internal components. That's not bad. At all. And that's a single MG. Now put four of them on a nimble 'mech like the SDR-5K, and you'll be doing 12 DPS to that internal structure.

Yes, you need something (or someone) to breach the armour, but when you do...

Try it, you might like it.

This + lots. I love my spider 5K, its great tearing the back of assaults up with 4 MG. Can only imagine how the 6 MG jager would fare now... ...if brawling wasnt so sucky at the moment.

Sephlock, on 09 August 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

I am begging you guys to stop discussing this. Given their past record, PGI will NERF MACHINEGUNS INTO THE ****ING GROUND.

Amen.

[Byzan]

they seem ok, ran my HBK with 3 MGs in the hunch for two matches and got 3 kills with the MGs they were all on targets that had been softened my my lasers and other group fire. good being able to DPS while near overheated, blast away with large lasers till red hot then rain in with the dakka

I guess if anything they probably have jumped up the pecking order above small lasers

[GammaGauss]

In battletech the board game, the MG is by fare the crapiest weapon ever and you curse the 200 rounds/ ton so if you have one MG you can use it for 200 turns, but a battle rarely reach the 20th turn.. so this weapon is more a weakness (ammo explosion) for any mech with a MG.
Btw This is supposed to be an anti infantry weapon and since we have no infantry in MWO the MGs should be heavily nerfed, in noway you are destroying mechs with an MG.

[stjobe]

GammaGauss, on 13 August 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

In battletech the board game, the MG is by fare the crapiest weapon ever and you curse the 200 rounds/ ton so if you have one MG you can use it for 200 turns, but a battle rarely reach the 20th turn.. so this weapon is more a weakness (ammo explosion) for any mech with a MG.
Btw This is supposed to be an anti infantry weapon and since we have no infantry in MWO the MGs should be heavily nerfed, in noway you are destroying mechs with an MG.

2 MGs firing against a light 'mech could theoretically destroy it in 3 turns - 3 x 4 damage to the head (9 armour, 3 IS).

If you think MGs were crap in TT you were using them wrong; they were deadly against light 'mechs and very, very useful as extra no-heat crit chances on heavier 'mechs.

And no, they've never been only "anti-infantry weapons", they've always been general purpose; 2 damage vs 'mechs, 2-12 damage vs infantry. In fact, infantry wasn't even in TT from the start - it came along with CityTech a year and a half or so after 2nd edition.