102 replies to this topic

[Shumabot]

Quote

The issue here is that PGI said "we're trying to make a sim that is based on TT values", so it's what a lot of people expected. I think PGI screwed the pooch when they decided to double armor, because it lead to a lot of other changes that needed to be made - increasing damage on missiles, increasing ammo counts per ton, etc. - that really took away some of the 'feel' that people were looking for.

I think the doubling armor issue is more of a scapegoat. I strongly suspect that the "feel" people were looking for is fundamentally impossible to experience. Direct translation of TT just results in mechs getting legged/headshotted at the start of every fight. The alpha strike gameplay wouldn't be gone, it would be just as prevalent. The problem with stock mechs isn't doubled armor or heat scaling, it's the fact that they are genuinely bad mechs. They were genuinely bad in the tabletop too, the moment you could you always switched away from them towards something that was purpose based and made sense.

The problem with MWO is, by in large, the fact that the tabletop game breaks down when you add in customization and they tried to directly press the tabletops math and customization systems into a live game. When you're handed a stock mech the first thing any skilled player does is compress the weapons into one, maybe two range brackets, and adds heat sinks until they can fire those weapons as continuously as possible. From there the player will take the weight savings from that step and use it to up armor themselves. With those changes you get a mech that hits harder, for longer, and is more resilient at the expense of versatility. Except versatility is kinda useless due to the opportunity costs incurred by having weapons that can't be used simultaneously. As long as this game is "balanced" from the standpoint of stock mechs this game won't be balanced. PGI is stuck basing their game off of another game that can't functionally be translated. They can't make the game better without angering BT veterans and they can't please BT veterans without making their game inaccessible and unbalanced.

[Hedonism Robot]

With custom games this should be easy to enforce and get players to agree to. I don't think it warrants an in-game mode that purposefully restricts this. If someone honestly wants to cheat in a NON-COMPETITIVE mode they are a tool that probably needs the self esteem boost.

[Lootee]

I'd download and install the game again to play a 100% stock random mech picker mode if they added it.

There should be achievements for piloting a stock mech for 100, 500, 1000..X games.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 09 April 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[Frantic Pryde]

If there was a stock mech option I would never play anything else.

[Aym]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 April 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Once the game was stable enough for me to play, I'd love this.

Only thing I'd ask is that no ECM mechs.

Ah but Nicholas, what ECM mech with it's stock weapons would REALLY bother you? I mean the infamous Raven would be 2Mlas, 1SRM 6, Tag and a Narc beacon. That's a LOT of tonnage in non-combat weapons, seriously try to build one in smurfy's and see if it'd really bother you to allow it...

I really like this idea, not least because I came up with it :-D

[TheForce]

Aym, on 09 April 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

I really like this idea, not least because I came up with it :-D

Sorry I didn't give you credit again...its cause i was in a state of RAGE when i saw that my "Stock Mech Sunday" thread was moved into the "Fansite Jumpship" forum that nobody reads. Hopefully Stock Mech Sunday will get some exposure in the NGNG podcast.

[Aym]

jeffsw6, on 09 April 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Wouldn't everyone just buy DHS, downgrade the engine slightly to maximize armor, and play one of a handful of stock variants that have reasonable armaments? The concept is cool but I do not think the selection of stock mechs is really there to make it fun yet.

If I had to choose one, though, I think I would go with Heavy Metal. It has a surprisingly sane stock load-out and can be converted from XL to STD while staying within your semi-stock rules.

But that's just the thing, that's your ideal option, many would go DHS and ENDO on a Hunchback 4SP and way up the engine size, I might go with an Atlas D or K or RS, get DHS and a larger engine and drop 3.5 tons or armor or so (since really who shoots at the arms of an Atlas?)
Still others would go with an Awesome 8Q with DHS and a bigger engine, or a K2, or heck even a C1 with Artemis, DHS, a 300XL, and some ammo?

TheForce, on 09 April 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Sorry I didn't give you credit again...its cause i was in a state of RAGE when i saw that my "Stock Mech Sunday" thread was moved into the "Fansite Jumpship" forum that nobody reads. Hopefully Stock Mech Sunday will get some exposure in the NGNG podcast.

What who moved it to fansite? That's, weird. Marik Mass Drop (IE Marik Monday Madness) is in general forums...

[TheForce]

Aym, on 09 April 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

What who moved it to fansite? That's, weird. Marik Mass Drop (IE Marik Monday Madness) is in general forums...

duno but i complained. usually i get messages from a mod...but this was a ninja move.

[TheForce]

Hedonism Robot, on 09 April 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

With custom games this should be easy to enforce and get players to agree to. I don't think it warrants an in-game mode that purposefully restricts this. If someone honestly wants to cheat in a NON-COMPETITIVE mode they are a tool that probably needs the self esteem boost.

If I remember, private matches are months away. Wish they set this up originally though...

[Buckminster]

Shumabot, on 09 April 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

I think the doubling armor issue is more of a scapegoat. I strongly suspect that the "feel" people were looking for is fundamentally impossible to experience. Direct translation of TT just results in mechs getting legged/headshotted at the start of every fight. The alpha strike gameplay wouldn't be gone, it would be just as prevalent. The problem with stock mechs isn't doubled armor or heat scaling, it's the fact that they are genuinely bad mechs. They were genuinely bad in the tabletop too, the moment you could you always switched away from them towards something that was purpose based and made sense.

Doubling armor was a direct response to the devs opting to go with a FPS style shooting mechanic that used perfect line of sight aiming and convergence. By going with a system that allows you to place every shot of a volley at the same spot with pinpoint precision, they needed to come up with something to compensate.

Think about TT (and I'm talking old school 3025) - it uses a 2d6 table to determine hit location, meaning that even though you are aiming every weapon at the same mech, they won't all hit, and they won't all hit the same location. 5 medium lasers would mean 25 points of damage spread over the mech, rather than 25 points of damage focused on a single location, and that makes a huge difference in the longevity of mechs. We'd customize our mechs in TT as well, but they never had one-volley lethality like they can in MWO.

I'm not sure what PGI could have done about it though. WoT has their 'cone of accuracy' method, or maybe they could have developed some sort of system where you designate a target and the computer handles the shooting. Either way, these are not the decisions that PGI made, so we have the game that we have.

Edited by Buckminster, 09 April 2013 - 06:24 PM.

[Victor Morson]

If they ever add Solaris, I'd take this as a gimmicky arena type, but that's all.

I mean it'd be like stock car racing or something in that environment. But it'd be awful as anything serious more than an occasional bit to shake it up.

[TheForce]

Victor Morson, on 09 April 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

If they ever add Solaris, I'd take this as a gimmicky arena type, but that's all.

I mean it'd be like stock car racing or something in that environment. But it'd be awful as anything serious more than an occasional bit to shake it up.

This game should be called Solaris Online.

[Eddrick]

I wouldn't mind a "Semi-Stock" or even a Full Stock mode. The problem with equipment balancing still remains. My favorite Mech (Catapult-K2) still has two weapons that have little purpose. They can't even serve thier intended purpose of being a secondary weapon for close range defence.

[Noobzorz]

I am all for novelty modes. Black Ops 2 is the most fun I've had with a Call of Duty game in ages, and that's because the Party Modes are so zany, and so well made. They encourage healthy, rigorous competition but in a goofy, wacky environment that introduces novel gameplay for all skill types and keeps people from being frustrated when they lose.

Stock modes sounds like a good start.

[Silentium]

Yes, I like this idea. I voted yes because I would also take other builds including the op mechs. I think it would be a cool diversion.

[HAV0C]

<S>

I for one would love to play Stock (preferred) or Mostly stock 'mechs in a compeditive league style environment. Ladder would be ok, but Planetary would be my preference,

You really get to watch true, real piloting come out in a stock 'mech battle. Using the weapons you have at your disposal, making every shot count, riding the ragged edge of overheating and maneuvering to spread damage, all of it.

Stock play is in my experience far more interesting and with the current roster of variants available in game would make for some really varied gameplay. Especially once we get the next 3 'mechs added to the lineup.

Just my opinion.

<S> See you Dirtside,

-Colonel Andrew "Havoc" Davis
Death's Hand Brigade Mercenaries

[Deathlike]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 09 April 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

id like to see game modes / rules c0,c1,c2,c3,c4,c5,c6

Someone said batchall?

[Vahnn]

I read the poll options before voting, and immediately thought, "Duuuuuumb poll."

Then I read OP and his suggestion. Now I go back to my thought on the poll options.

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES. "OP" my ***, I think this is a great idea. It forces nothing on anyone, and is a great idea.

[Zokidawa]

I can't play a stock nor a semi-stock mech. I'm even disappointed because the weapon types are limited on any single mech. At least there's diversity in weapon choices for each type and whatever modules we can put onto the mech.

[TheForce]

Vahnn, on 09 April 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

I read the poll options before voting, and immediately thought, &quot;Duuuuuumb poll.&quot;

Then I read OP and his suggestion. Now I go back to my thought on the poll options.

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES. &quot;OP&quot; my ***, I think this is a great idea. It forces nothing on anyone, and is a great idea.

Gotta give credit to Aym as it was his idea.